Pastor Gordon's First try at Bedini Energizer

[Pastor Gordon]

One thing Im noting right off the bat... When I have 12 volts input, the current draw is more than the output current draw. However, when I run it using 24 volts on the input side, I get at least half as much MORE current on the output than the current draw on the input side. Why is that?

when using 12 voltsinput, its drawing roughly 1 amp and output is drawing roughly half an amp.
when using 24 volts input, its drawing roughly 2 and a half amps, and output is drawing over 3 amps.

in either case, its charging a 12 volt battery...

I don't get it???

[dennis foyil]

Dude....! That is likely to heat up the trannies...light up your neons more than you want. And over charge a small 12volt lead acid. Stick with 12v to 12volts for a while. Don't let your optimism over ride

[dennis foyil]

Sorry. over ride due caution.

[Pastor Gordon]

Dude....! That is likely to heat up the trannies...light up your neons more than you want. And over charge a small 12volt lead acid. Stick with 12v to 12volts for a while. Don't let your optimism over ride

Neons arent lighting up... unless I unhook the charge battery...

I felt of the transistors after running them that way all night, they are still cool as cucumbers.

[Pastor Gordon]

Hi Pastor Gordon,

Kudos on getting it running!

Nice construction job.

Question for ya... (besides the one about 24 volts)

I read the voltage coming out of the machine, and it is only around 4 volts... why is that when I have 12 volts going in? It does charge a 12v battery, but it just seems to me that it should be putting out way more than 4 volts @ 1/2 amp when the input side is 12 volts and drawing 1 amp. I know there's an explanation for this, but I don't know what that explanation is lol. Any insights?

[Gary Hammond]

Hi Pastor Gordon,

Question for ya... (besides the one about 24 volts)

I read the voltage coming out of the machine, and it is only around 4 volts... why is that when I have 12 volts going in? It does charge a 12v battery, but it just seems to me that it should be putting out way more than 4 volts @ 1/2 amp when the input side is 12 volts and drawing 1 amp. I know there's an explanation for this, but I don't know what that explanation is lol. Any insights?

Where did you measure the "output voltage", and was the charge battery hooked up at the time? If the charge battery was hooked up, you should see it's voltage on a voltmeter hooked to it (the output). If you were measuring the output without the charge battery as a load, the neons should be very bright and you would see 90 volts or more on your voltmeter attached to the output leads. Don't do this as it will blow the transistors just in a few seconds! On my machine the o-scope shows voltage spikes across the transistor between 30 and 40 volts above the battery voltage. This is what charges the battery. Voltage spikes, not current. You won't even see this on a digital volt meter - only on an o-scope. It's not a good idea to hook any volt meters or ammeters to the charge battery, as they absorb some of the spike and reduce the charging effect.

You should have 12.xx volts going in from the run battery and about 400 volt spikes out produced each magnet pass from the inductive collapse (radiant). The battery load will pull this down to about 45 to 60 volt spikes available to the battery. Again, you won't see this on a volt meter - only on an o-scope. (Or the neon lights will try to dissipate this down to 90 volt spikes with no load attached.)

How did you measure 1/2 amp into the charge battery? .......Considering that what the machine supplies to the charge battery is high voltage spikes with little or no current, there is no way to accurately measure this with an ammeter. Any meter here will kill most of the radiant and likely be damaged in the process.

Even measuring the input from the run battery with an ammeter should only be done momentarily, as it will greatly reduce the inductive output and overall charging.
The momentary current flow check is best done with an analog ammeter which tends to average the rapid current pulses. Whereas a digital meter will only sample at certain intervals which may or may not sample at the current peak, resulting in unstable and erroneous readings.

It is best not to use any meters at all except for momentary voltage and current readings in and momentary voltage readings out. The radiant tends to appear at all points in the circuit and will be partially dissipated by anything "extra" attached to the circuit.

The only way to "measure" your results is by measuring how many joules it takes to fully recharge a battery that you have previously taken a given number of joules out of. The magic happens in the battery - not in the machine.

[Pastor Gordon]

Hi Pastor Gordon,



Where did you measure the "output voltage", and was the charge battery hooked up at the time? If the charge battery was hooked up, you should see it's voltage on a voltmeter hooked to it (the output). If you were measuring the output without the charge battery as a load, the neons should be very bright and you would see 90 volts or more on your voltmeter attached to the output leads. Don't do this as it will blow the transistors just in a few seconds! On my machine the o-scope shows voltage spikes across the transistor between 30 and 40 volts above the battery voltage. This is what charges the battery. Voltage spikes, not current. You won't even see this on a digital volt meter - only on an o-scope. It's not a good idea to hook any volt meters or ammeters to the charge battery, as they absorb some of the spike and reduce the charging effect.

You should have 12.xx volts going in from the run battery and about 400 volt spikes out produced each magnet pass from the inductive collapse (radiant). The battery load will pull this down to about 45 to 60 volt spikes available to the battery. Again, you won't see this on a volt meter - only on an o-scope. (Or the neon lights will try to dissipate this down to 90 volt spikes with no load attached.)

How did you measure 1/2 amp into the charge battery? .......Considering that what the machine supplies to the charge battery is high voltage spikes with little or no current, there is no way to accurately measure this with an ammeter. Any meter here will kill most of the radiant and likely be damaged in the process.

Even measuring the input from the run battery with an ammeter should only be done momentarily, as it will greatly reduce the inductive output and overall charging.
The momentary current flow check is best done with an analog ammeter which tends to average the rapid current pulses. Whereas a digital meter will only sample at certain intervals which may or may not sample at the current peak, resulting in unstable and erroneous readings.

It is best not to use any meters at all except for momentary voltage and current readings in and momentary voltage readings out. The radiant tends to appear at all points in the circuit and will be partially dissipated by anything "extra" attached to the circuit.

The only way to "measure" your results is by measuring how many joules it takes to fully recharge a battery that you have previously taken a given number of joules out of. The magic happens in the battery - not in the machine.

When I measured the output voltage, I used a diode from the output positive to the battery, and have an analogue VOLT panel meter hooked up before the diode. Without using the diode it shows the voltage of the battery instead of whats coming out of the machine. I DO NOT run it without the charge battery hooked up... I learned that lesson with my smaller machine. I also have an analogue AMP panel meter showing the current going out to the charge battery.

The input current is measured with an analogue AMP panel meter as well, which shows the current draw into the machine. The VOLT panel meter on the input side is showing the total input battery voltage, not what it is using... (SEE PICTURE - Input is on the right side, output is on the left side.)

So your saying I shouldn't use the meters at all? Or maybe put them on a switch to cut the meters on and off? I do not have a way to check the actual voltage spikes as I do not have an oscilloscope.

[Gary Hammond]

Hi Pastor Gordon,

After my last post I went back to look at your photos again, and I see how you have the panel meters wired in. I didn't think the output ammeter would show any current, but I was wrong about that. I experimented with mine, placing an analog multi-meter (set on the 16 amp scale) in the negative output lead. To my surprise, it was reading about 1/2 amp! But this also caused the voltage spikes on the o-scope across the transistor to jump from 65 volts to about 95 volts. The neons didn't come on, but they must have been close to it! I should have realized this, because I can hook up a 500 ma LED panel across the battery while charging and it still continues to charge but at a slower rate.

But to answer your question ....

So your saying I shouldn't use the meters at all? Or maybe put them on a switch to cut the meters on and off?

..........the ammeter in the output will definitely reduce the charging rate as witnessed by the higher voltage across the transistor. This may also be the cause of the 4 volt drop you measured between your output and the battery positive as you had the meter in the positive lead. I recommend removing the output ammeter completely because of the detrimental effect it has on the circuit. The input ammeter can be wired with a switch for momentary readings. The volt meters will have less effect on the circuit but can also reduce the performance. Especially panel meters, more so than digital multi-meters, because of their lower input resistance. So yes, I would even put switches on the volt meters.

P.S. ... Anything you can do to reduce resistance in the input, output, or coil windings will give you better results and faster charging.

[Pastor Gordon]

Im looking for a cheap, usb oscilloscope that I can run from my laptop... Key word here is cheap! Any suggestions? I don't need anything fancy or expensive, just something that will read the spikes your talking about properly...

Also, would it make a difference if I switched over to digital meters? or should I just go with the on/off switches for the panel meters I have? If possible, Id like to be able to constantly see whats going on with the input and output of the machine, without having to "probe" it every time.

[ZPDM]

Great build. It sounds like you did something a bit new with your measuring set-up. I didn't quite understand how you have the meters wired, I might almost ask for a diagram but I should probably do what Gary did and just look closely at the pictures you gave us and see if I can't make some progress. While that set-up may have some value for research, I would also echo what Gary said that it will almost undoubtedly somewhat diminish battery charging. It might not be a stretch to consider the radiant/inductive a bit like a very, very small lightening strike, it wants to go wherever it can and will go to where it can dependant, in a manner unclear to me, on the resistances/capacitances etc it sees.

I may have already mentioned this but I have been meaning to pick up a DSO Nano for some time, I just keep seeing strange stuff w/o an oscope and it is sort of why confuse myself further

[Yaro1776]

Hey PG,

Your build is progressing nicely and then there is the data collection instrumentation to read all the signals produced. Gary is spot on with the inline analog meters for amperage - not a good permanent solution. The amperage and voltage are important tools for the SG tuning and operation if you are of that bent.

Switched to a dc clamp-on meter for amperage reads and found this to be a reasonable solution, however it is always cumbersome and distracting to take all the readings by hand and keep one's notes in some sort of order. A higher tech solution that I find useful is to use a non intrusive, externally powered Amp sensor that is put through a data acquisition box and fed into my laptop for on screen and real time display. Sounds expensive! Not really, between the 2 amp sensors, data device and software you are out less than $150.

Yaro

[Pastor Gordon]

Hi Pastor Gordon,

After my last post I went back to look at your photos again, and I see how you have the panel meters wired in. I didn't think the output ammeter would show any current, but I was wrong about that. I experimented with mine, placing an analog multi-meter (set on the 16 amp scale) in the negative output lead. To my surprise, it was reading about 1/2 amp! But this also caused the voltage spikes on the o-scope across the transistor to jump from 65 volts to about 95 volts. The neons didn't come on, but they must have been close to it! I should have realized this, because I can hook up a 500 ma LED panel across the battery while charging and it still continues to charge but at a slower rate.

But to answer your question .... ..........the ammeter in the output will definitely reduce the charging rate as witnessed by the higher voltage across the transistor. This may also be the cause of the 4 volt drop you measured between your output and the battery positive as you had the meter in the positive lead. I recommend removing the output ammeter completely because of the detrimental effect it has on the circuit. The input ammeter can be wired with a switch for momentary readings. The volt meters will have less effect on the circuit but can also reduce the performance. Especially panel meters, more so than digital multi-meters, because of their lower input resistance. So yes, I would even put switches on the volt meters.

P.S. ... Anything you can do to reduce resistance in the input, output, or coil windings will give you better results and faster charging.

Would something like this work without affecting performance?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-60V-100A-...sAAOSwhRxXKdnn

[Gary Hammond]

Hi P.G.

Would something like this work without affecting performance?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-60V-100A-...sAAOSwhRxXKdnn

I have one of those, but haven't used it yet on my SSG. It should work on the input side, but will steal a little energy doing it. From the E-Bay listing .........

Extremely low power consumption of 7 mA. More efficient than any LED meter.

.........And I wouldn't use it at all on the output side. It would, however, be extremely useful in measuring the output of a battery after it is charged. Take out a given amount of watt hours (joules) and then see how many joules it takes from the run battery through the SSG to fully recharge it. This is really the only valid measure of what your machine is doing to the battery!

Paul mentioned getting a DSO Nano scope. I also have one of those and it quit charging after a while, so I ordered a replacement battery for it. Worked for a while and then quit taking charge again. Charger puts out, but something inside the meter must have gone bad. It didn't really give me the results I wanted, so gave up on it entirely. I replaced it with a Tenma 100KZ dual channel digital storage scope which works really well for me. Wish I had the $100+ back I spent on the DSO and replacement battery!

You don't really need an o-scope to tune the SSG. But I wanted one to help me visualize and understand more of what was happening in various parts of the circuit. Kind of a luxury but not really essential.

A clamp on ammeter, like Yaro mentioned, can also be used to get an approximation of current flow. Remember, this is a PULSED DC circuit with radiant spikes moving around it. I have used a couple of different digital clamp on meters (one AC and one DC) and get somewhat unstable and slightly different results from using momentary connections with my analog multi-meter. I trust the analog meter the most, as it is very consistent and about what I would expect the readings to be.

[James McDonald]

Hi P. G. --

Your SG build is very nice. Congrats on getting it running. Like Yaro mentioned below the high tech current sensor was designed by me and it does not degrade the performance of the SG machine. I have two each on each of my SG machines. You can hook voltage meters directly to them and with a simple formula convert that voltage to a current. Attached is a picture of the current sensor.

-- James

Hey PG,

Your build is progressing nicely and then there is the data collection instrumentation to read all the signals produced. Gary is spot on with the inline analog meters for amperage - not a good permanent solution. The amperage and voltage are important tools for the SG tuning and operation if you are of that bent.

Switched to a dc clamp-on meter for amperage reads and found this to be a reasonable solution, however it is always cumbersome and distracting to take all the readings by hand and keep one's notes in some sort of order. A higher tech solution that I find useful is to use a non intrusive, externally powered Amp sensor that is put through a data acquisition box and fed into my laptop for on screen and real time display. Sounds expensive! Not really, between the 2 amp sensors, data device and software you are out less than $150.

Yaro

[Pastor Gordon]

Hi P. G. --

Your SG build is very nice. Congrats on getting it running. Like Yaro mentioned below the high tech current sensor was designed by me and it does not degrade the performance of the SG machine. I have two each on each of my SG machines. You can hook voltage meters directly to them and with a simple formula convert that voltage to a current. Attached is a picture of the current sensor.

-- James

So using this circuit I can hook my panel meters directly up to it without affecting the SG's performance? Where do I get this circuit board? or even the schematic to build one? I print boards all the time through OshPark for various things... If the price is right Id just buy one, or two, or 4... however many it takes as I have 4 panel meters total at the moment.