Plasma Ignition | Plasma Jet Ignition

[Gary Hammond]

Hi RB176,

Question if I use a crank trigger ignition with sensor to create a Hall effect with a coil and diode will this still create Plasma spark without a MSD box? The MSD would be just for multiple sparks correct?

NO !! That is not correct!!

You need a capacitor discharge circuit attached to the coil to make this work. The MSD is a multiple spark (capacitor) discharge circuit that discharges it's capacitor several times each firing event. A single cap discharge is all that's required to get a single plasma event at the spark plug. But the MSD is good because it gives multiple plasma events every time it fires.

The coil and diode can't work their magic without a cap discharge involved.


PS -- Sorry Aaron, I didn't see your response before I posted this.

[Aaron Murakami]

Question if I use a crank trigger ignition with sensor to create a Hall effect with a coil and diode will this still create Plasma spark without a MSD box? The MSD would be just for multiple sparks correct?

The MSD serves more than just causing multiple sparks - at the basic level, it is still a capacitor charging circuit that dumps a capacitor into the primary of an ignition coil so the coil output is amped up compared to just giving the primary a 12v input from the battery.

You can use any trigger, but need some capacitor that is charged up to a couple microfarads (uf) at minimum and around 400+ volts at minimum.

The cap is necessary because the diode allows the low voltage cap (400 is considered low voltage) to jump over a gap (when normally thousands of volts is needed). That causes the plasma effect.

[RB176]

Question if I use a crank trigger ignition with sensor to create a Hall effect with a coil and diode will this still create Plasma spark without a MSD box? The MSD would be just for multiple sparks correct?

[Aaron Murakami]

Hello.
Sorry.
I use the same type, diodes, only a smaller version like these: https://www.ebay.com/itm/20000V-20KV...RzDC:rk:3:pf:0
Maybe that´s the problem (?)
Torben

Those look like the same ones. They should work fine.

[Alstrup]

Hello.
Sorry.
I use the same type, diodes, only a smaller version like these: https://www.ebay.com/itm/20000V-20KV...RzDC:rk:3:pf:0
Maybe that´s the problem (?)
Torben

[Aaron Murakami]

Hey guys.
Lots of good information here.
However, I have another problem that I have not yet found the solution to. - When using the Murakami set up with MSD or Mallory Hyfire CDI´s, Pertronix 1,6 ohm coil and 20 KV - 2 amp capacitors, 1 on each string, MSD Super conductor wires and 0,080" plug gap, I experienced arching between the terminals on the diodes or to chassis unless the diuodes are at least 3" apart and ditto away from the chassis. I I place them wide apart the system works very well. This is on a high compression 2,2 liter engine. Apart from some extra power it becomes really smooth and the lower rpm torque increase below the power curve is noticeably. (No dyno comparison yet, because the engine twisted the transmission. I need to replace that first) When i close the gap to 0,060" the issue seems to become less, but is still there.
Am i possibly asking too much of this way of doing it?

Thanks.
Torben

Hi Torben,

You mention 20kv - amp capacitors - do you mean diodes?

You can see on the left, I have 4 diodes almost right next to each other and no arcing to anywhere. That was temporary to test the system but I will put that into a plastic box and mount it on the fenderwall or firewall. https://www.youtube.com/embed/bqNVH6LM4W0?start=2029 - there should only be the capacitor voltage at those diodes as the HV on the plug is blocked by the diode so there should be no arcing.

On the video, you have to hit play and it will take you to the proper slide, then pause.

I'd recommend putting all 4 diodes into a plastic project box.

[Alstrup]

Hey guys.
Lots of good information here.
However, I have another problem that I have not yet found the solution to. - When using the Murakami set up with MSD or Mallory Hyfire CDI´s, Pertronix 1,6 ohm coil and 20 KV - 2 amp capacitors, 1 on each string, MSD Super conductor wires and 0,080" plug gap, I experienced arching between the terminals on the diodes or to chassis unless the diuodes are at least 3" apart and ditto away from the chassis. I I place them wide apart the system works very well. This is on a high compression 2,2 liter engine. Apart from some extra power it becomes really smooth and the lower rpm torque increase below the power curve is noticeably. (No dyno comparison yet, because the engine twisted the transmission. I need to replace that first) When i close the gap to 0,060" the issue seems to become less, but is still there.
Am i possibly asking too much of this way of doing it?

Thanks.
Torben

[heysoundude]

@rokan - Reverse engineering proprietary systems can be challenging, but if you're looking to modify a working system, you have to understand all the variables in that system that are taken into account, and HOW they're regarded.
think GI Joe - knowing is half the battle, and the roadmap to knowledge (and a solution) is in Gary's post. after you have that mastered, then you'll be able to apply Aaron's mod...or know if it's easily possible on this machine.

[Gary Hammond]

Hi Rokan,

Ok, here's what baffles me? My distributor has 1 lobe that passes by the magnetic pickup, it doesn't have 4 lobes, one for each cylinder, as I would have thought?? Soooo, how does know when to fire each of the next three cylinders after it passes by that one lobe? Plus, I can't advance or retard the timing, the distributor only bolts into one position with no slots to advance or retard with so it must be entirely controlled by the computer somehow??

Refer back to the schematic I placed in post # 980. It shows a crankshaft position sensor input to the computer. This tells it when to fire at each 180 degree interval, and the distributor pickup tells it which time is for cylinder # 1. ............ They work together to let the computer know when to fire. The timing advance/retard is controlled by the input from other sensors such as knock sensor, EGR valve position sensor, throttle position sensor, and others.

[rokan]

Possibly, maybe. But why are you so tied to the MSD? back to basics means making that go away too, THEN you can figure out the diode situation. I'm talking about returning the car to stock because you know it runs that way, and that means going back to unmodified spark plug wires as well rather than your modified ones, and starting again from there. In doing so, you may come across the issue that's causing all the problems.

Yeah, frustrating. But rather than assuming "well it worked on the XXX, so I'll do it that way again," you have to sort out exactly how the ignition works on this truck before you can apply the mods.
That distributor, for instance, with the coil internal to it, is unique. Aaron seems to be cautioning you about plasma discharge internal to the distributor, and that makes good sense to me. Once you've learned and understand the ignition well enough to explain it to the experts here, then the experts will be able to step in and help apply the plasma mod correctly, so you don't damage the car.

Ok, here's what baffles me? My distributor has 1 lobe that passes by the magnetic pickup, it doesn't have 4 lobes, one for each cylinder, as I would have thought?? Soooo, how does know when to fire each of the next three cylinders after it passes by that one lobe? Plus, I can't advance or retard the timing, the distributor only bolts into one position with no slots to advance or retard with so it must be entirely controlled by the computer somehow??

[heysoundude]

Ryan at Nology answered back that it is positive.
I've done all of those tests and retests and none of it works.
OK, listen up guys, here it is again - it doesn't matter about the diodes at all! IT DOESN'T RUN WHEN JUST THE DIODE JUMPER WIRES ARE CONNECTED TO THE SPARK PLUG WIRES WITH NOTHING ELSE CONNECTED TO THE ENDS! They just stop in the air, connected to nothing on the other end, not to a diode, not to a capacitor but to nothing! And it will not run??????

Could the original output of the Toyota coil be negative? Could that be the problem? That it was originally negative and we are changing it to a positive output?
What if I go back to the original coil in the distributor, ditch the external Nology coil and connect my MSD unit to the internal distributor coil, not the Nology coil? Could that maybe work with everything?

Possibly, maybe. But why are you so tied to the MSD? back to basics means making that go away too, THEN you can figure out the diode situation. I'm talking about returning the car to stock because you know it runs that way, and that means going back to unmodified spark plug wires as well rather than your modified ones, and starting again from there. In doing so, you may come across the issue that's causing all the problems.

Yeah, frustrating. But rather than assuming "well it worked on the XXX, so I'll do it that way again," you have to sort out exactly how the ignition works on this truck before you can apply the mods.
That distributor, for instance, with the coil internal to it, is unique. Aaron seems to be cautioning you about plasma discharge internal to the distributor, and that makes good sense to me. Once you've learned and understand the ignition well enough to explain it to the experts here, then the experts will be able to step in and help apply the plasma mod correctly, so you don't damage the car.

[Aaron Murakami]

Ryan at Nology answered back that it is positive.
I've done all of those tests and retests and none of it works.
OK, listen up guys, here it is again - it doesn't matter about the diodes at all! IT DOESN'T RUN WHEN JUST THE DIODE JUMPER WIRES ARE CONNECTED TO THE SPARK PLUG WIRES WITH NOTHING ELSE CONNECTED TO THE ENDS! They just stop in the air, connected to nothing on the other end, not to a diode, not to a capacitor but to nothing! And it will not run??????

Could the original output of the Toyota coil be negative? Could that be the problem? That it was originally negative and we are changing it to a positive output?
What if I go back to the original coil in the distributor, ditch the external Nology coil and connect my MSD unit to the internal distributor coil, not the Nology coil? Could that maybe work with everything?

I answered you once or twice in regards to your "anomaly". I already understand what you're saying about that and do not know the exact reason for it.

Regardless of what causes that, the diodes have to be connected EXACTLY how I drew it on the diagram IF the hv output is positive.

The Toyota coil hv output is probably negative, but that would not have anything to do with the igniter or how it runs. The igniter is just a trigger and is independent of the hv output polarity.

You can try the stock coil in the distributor, but I have no idea what it will do.

[rokan]

Not sure what you mean by coil wire that goes to the cap.

The only thing that does make sense as far as how to hook up your system is in the diagram I posted.

You said it wouldn't even run that way, which means that Nology doesn't know what hv polarity their coil actually outputs. If they did and the HV output is actually positive, then the diagram I posted showing the diode direction would be correct and it would work.

I would recommend doing the diode test that Gary explained. You have to know if those diodes are good or not.

Ryan at Nology answered back that it is positive.
I've done all of those tests and retests and none of it works.
OK, listen up guys, here it is again - it doesn't matter about the diodes at all! IT DOESN'T RUN WHEN JUST THE DIODE JUMPER WIRES ARE CONNECTED TO THE SPARK PLUG WIRES WITH NOTHING ELSE CONNECTED TO THE ENDS! They just stop in the air, connected to nothing on the other end, not to a diode, not to a capacitor but to nothing! And it will not run??????

Could the original output of the Toyota coil be negative? Could that be the problem? That it was originally negative and we are changing it to a positive output?
What if I go back to the original coil in the distributor, ditch the external Nology coil and connect my MSD unit to the internal distributor coil, not the Nology coil? Could that maybe work with everything?

[Aaron Murakami]

Are you saying I should try 1 diode from the coil positive to the coil wire that goes to the cap?

Not sure what you mean by coil wire that goes to the cap.

The only thing that does make sense as far as how to hook up your system is in the diagram I posted.

You said it wouldn't even run that way, which means that Nology doesn't know what hv polarity their coil actually outputs. If they did and the HV output is actually positive, then the diagram I posted showing the diode direction would be correct and it would work.

I would recommend doing the diode test that Gary explained. You have to know if those diodes are good or not.

[rokan]

If you do it with a diode from + of coil directly to the top of the HV output, then you will cause a plasma discharge between the hv and each plug connection in the distributor cap as well as the plug.

Are you saying I should try 1 diode from the coil positive to the coil wire that goes to the cap?