R-Charge Window Motor

[DadHav]

Greetings, Mr. Bedini, and esteemed group members:
Though I am overseas, I am always near the developments in your fantastic groups. First, I am extremely flattered to be mentioned by name for my meager contributions in the energizers and motors. Second, in response to post #19, your very clear and succinct reference to my builds of "window motors" - you are 1000% correct. My intent was to build not a super high efficiency motor that can self run on capacitors, but rather a very high torque, pulsed, zero magnetic drag or BEMF prime mover, so to speak. At high RPM, cogging of magnetic motors becomes negligible. Thus, the intent is to marry an electrical turbine, as you so aptly put it, to a kind of high efficiency, high voltage magneto. In retrospect, the use of the term "window motor" was ill-advised, as not everyone understood my philosophy. There was not a "zero force motor" group, and the magnetic curl used to repel magnetic corner flux was not covered in any other venue. In having perfectly understood the galvanometer analogy for the window motor, I had struck off toward the no Lenz law holy grail of motors to try to build a prime mover to spin a large Watson-esque magneto very efficiently. How to use that contraption is another subject, so not pertinent here. My sincere apologies if my course caused others to go off the path of the pure and proven window motor.

Again, great thanks to Mr. Bedini, and blessings to all and keep up the magnificent work! Discoveries abound!
Carl Hurst

Hello Carl. I for one am really happy to see your reply here. You're most cordial and for sure we all thank John for sharing his knowledge. I know you mentioned you're style motor doesn't belong in the group talked about here but never the less I find it very interesting and wouldn't mind learning a little more about it. Do you have more information available anywhere or will you be considering posting a thread here? Are there any advanced builds to look at? I think the idea of the stitch winding has some possibilities. I can picture a stitch wind around the outside of a phenolic resin disk having 12 wire notches and an outrunner rotor with 14 or 16 magnets. The 12 driver notches could be wound to be three phase coinciding to the amount of magnets. Each of the three phases could be driven by a pulse circuit with a hall effect trigger or the entire motor could be driven by an R/C three phase motor control. This would make the motor self starting. Of course "Discoveries Abound" and you could run standard notch and pole relationship with bifiler right? Carl, I'm just thinking out loud. You may have done this already.
Pardon me for getting carried away but I did want to acknowledge your presence and thank you for the explanation. Thanks John for recognizing the clarification between the two windings needed to be brought up.
Take Care
John Hav

[DadHav]

Hey John H,

Late quote reply, but just wanted to add my experience with the 220 ohm resistor. I had excellent results with a 1k pot in series with this resistor. You can see how it affected amp draw and rotor speed on my 36v window motor vid on YouTube. I used a 7 filar coil with 5 windings paralleled to the full bipolar switch. @ 12v input any variance on the 1k pot caused the rotor to slow down, and input current dropped to a trickle. The 1k only became necessary on higher input voltages. In the video I ran on 36v and at start up amp draw pegged my 5A analogue gauge. Once up to speed its drawing about 2 amps. I
tweak each trigger winding next and speed varies slightly and the amps drop to 1A. Next I tweak the pot in question and that is where the speed increases significantly, with a drop in current to below 500 ma. On the video you can actually hear that I tweak one half of the switch too far, and I have to knock it back to get it running at an optimum range. Mind you, all of this was done by ear, listening to the rotor speed, but it is just like JB said, that resistor controls the current in this switch. I think you are spot on when you say it probably isn't needed when you run at very low voltages.

Regards


Hi Ren. I found also to have some extra latitude with a variable resistance there. A pot in series with the resister is probably the wise way to go if you experiment there right? I had a trimmer there with no fixed resistor and quickly found out you can toast them pretty quick. It was at that time I started thinking about how much potential might be dropping across the components and I put the little full wave together. I just always set the current limiting on the PS low enough not to pop a transistor and had fun seeing how low I could go. My plan is to make a few boards with capacitors and solar cells so that my Sons can set these little motors on a shelf or windowsill and have them run for a long time.
Take care Ren. Thanks
John Hav

[SixtythreeXKE]

A-field motors

Hi John, I don't think I've seen all of Carl's motors but the ones I saw where called A field motors if I remember right and their coils where horizontal and to the sides of the rotor. I'll see if I can find a video of what I'm talking about. It looked like a good idea to me, but I haven't seen it implemented on a high quality build yet. I'm sure it will end up being something you've considered at one time or the other but we'll see.
John Hav.

Hi, DadHav:
The reason I always referred to the motors I built as A-Field motors is very specific. The A-Field was brought to our attention long ago, I think in the early 80's by Mr. Bedini. He and Tom Bearden referred to the A-Field, both N and S, in a hand drawn pencil drawing. It is the A-field that I have made use of in all my iterations and experiments. I was ever striving for a strong, pulsed no Lenz, no BEMF, minimum eddy current motor, with which to drive a very effective magneto at high speed using very little current. I have other iteration I did not video, including ones similar to the zero force motor Mr. Bedini showed in his WMV video recently, and also similar to the one that Dr. Lindeman built. That iteration showed some really peculiar characteristics. Let's just say that magnets like being sucked into the center of coils, so you need to time both energizing and also the collapse of coil field to get the most powerful attraction AND repulsion of armature magnets. Their orientation is also very interesting...

Anyway, the A-field term was appropriate, as it is the curl field next to a wire bundle I am using, but NOT strictly in a "window" configuration. But the only venue we had at the time for posting these experiments was the Window Motor group, as that is the closest related thrust in motors and energizers. Here is the link to that old S-curved stator winding: S-Cage Stator and Reed Switch-Driven Bedini-Cole Commutator Large Window Motor

The "baseball stitch" winding I used on a four pole armature....


Hope that helps!
Best regards
Carl Hurst

[cest73]

John (DadHav),
To really easy go with PNG, one is advised to use "gimp" even on "Windows" , but the JPG is of sufficient quality to make that effort not mandatory? I hope soon I end running around and get to do more "stuff" and "in place".

Just for the moment:
when we substitute a MJL21194 (with it's inherent FVD of 0.5...4V (@nnn mA... @16A) with a /MOSFET and a froward diode/ () we get an inhered FVD (Forward Voltage Drop) of 0.35V... for the diode and RDSon of the MOSFET ranging from 0.03 to max 0.3V right?, so there are marginal cases where we could use the MJL to surpass the MOSFET provided the BJT is richly saturated (eg. by a Sziklay driver) and well below it's rated 16A (presumably around 1A..4A?)?
could anyone comment to that?
This is in the light if we cold get close (and how close) to breaking even with the WM topology IMHO.

[John_Bedini]

Zero force motor

In this Video I'm showing a "ZERO FORCE MOTOR" The motor works opposite the normal SG or DC motor. No Back EMF is developed in the motor, so it does not generate anything. The discussion will take place in the Energysciencefourm. here .http://www.energyscienceforum.com/ The motor was built by Peter Lindermann from one of my early models. The Forum is dictated to the people that worked so hard on the SG groups.
Thanks for watching

John Bedini

[SixtythreeXKE]

Carl Hurst S-Coil or Baseball Stich coil motor

JohnHav,
Is that not another Carl Hurst motor?

Hi, guys:
Here is that old video showing the configuration: S-Cage Stator and Reed Switch-Driven Bedini-Cole Commutator Large Window Motor Notes below the vid.

You can see I was off in another direction already with this. It does NOT charge caps well, there is little or no back EMF, is uses little power, but it is quite torquey.

It is NOT a real window motor.
Carl Hurst

[SixtythreeXKE]

Greetings, Mr. Bedini, and esteemed group members:
Though I am overseas, I am always near the developments in your fantastic groups. First, I am extremely flattered to be mentioned by name for my meager contributions in the energizers and motors. Second, in response to post #19, your very clear and succinct reference to my builds of "window motors" - you are 1000% correct. My intent was to build not a super high efficiency motor that can self run on capacitors, but rather a very high torque, pulsed, zero magnetic drag or BEMF prime mover, so to speak. At high RPM, cogging of magnetic motors becomes negligible. Thus, the intent is to marry an electrical turbine, as you so aptly put it, to a kind of high efficiency, high voltage magneto. In retrospect, the use of the term "window motor" was ill-advised, as not everyone understood my philosophy. There was not a "zero force motor" group, and the magnetic curl used to repel magnetic corner flux was not covered in any other venue. In having perfectly understood the galvanometer analogy for the window motor, I had struck off toward the no Lenz law holy grail of motors to try to build a prime mover to spin a large Watson-esque magneto very efficiently. How to use that contraption is another subject, so not pertinent here. My sincere apologies if my course caused others to go off the path of the pure and proven window motor.

Again, great thanks to Mr. Bedini, and blessings to all and keep up the magnificent work! Discoveries abound!
Carl Hurst

[Ren]

I see John, So the elimination of the 220 ohm resistor isn't necessarily a bad thing if you have the voltage adjustments down low enough to not overdrive the power transistors? Well I guess that means when I'm going up in voltage on the little circuits and starting to draw too much current it could be that I need that resistor. Thanks now that make sense. Should have been able to figure that out myself. I never was a fan of the outside coil but had luck with it on the little notch rotor in the mag lev base. Since we have mentioned coils do you mind letting us know what you think of the S shaped coil that goes around the outside but surrounds the entire rotor? Tis is all one single winding and goes across the N then over to the S and back the other way etc. until it goes all around the outside and has wires aligned with all six magnets.
Thanks John
John Hav

Hey John H,

Late quote reply, but just wanted to add my experience with the 220 ohm resistor. I had excellent results with a 1k pot in series with this resistor. You can see how it affected amp draw and rotor speed on my 36v window motor vid on YouTube. I used a 7 filar coil with 5 windings paralleled to the full bipolar switch. @ 12v input any variance on the 1k pot caused the rotor to slow down, and input current dropped to a trickle. The 1k only became necessary on higher input voltages. In the video I ran on 36v and at start up amp draw pegged my 5A analogue gauge. Once up to speed its drawing about 2 amps. I
tweak each trigger winding next and speed varies slightly and the amps drop to 1A. Next I tweak the pot in question and that is where the speed increases significantly, with a drop in current to below 500 ma. On the video you can actually hear that I tweak one half of the switch too far, and I have to knock it back to get it running at an optimum range. Mind you, all of this was done by ear, listening to the rotor speed, but it is just like JB said, that resistor controls the current in this switch. I think you are spot on when you say it probably isn't needed when you run at very low voltages.

Regards

[DadHav]

Hello Stevan.
I'm just experimenting with file extensions and size. This is a drawing of the Motor Runs Motor circuit for low voltage and current. In my opinion the circuit is good for experimenting with small earth cells and offers an alternative circuit to the blocking oscillators. I hope this is more legible. It seems like uploading a PNG file doesn't work to well for me. This file is a JPG. I'll add it to the original post as well.
J

[cest73]

DadHav,
the picture is actually a bit too small?

[DadHav]

Hello John and others. I think the best circuit to show the use of the small transistors is associated with the video Window Motor Runs Window Motor:
Window Motor Runs Window Motor. - YouTube
Here is a drawing of the circuit. I hope the lettering won't be to small to see.

Here is a video of the Notch Rotor in the Magnetic Levitation Base in case someone hasn't seen it. This is an outside coil which is not my favorite either but it was just a little experiment that worked. In this video the rotor will be running from as little as 30 micro amps on a mini solar cell.
Window Motor On Water Battery & Solar + (Notch Rotor) - YouTube
The meter I'm using is showing average amperage. The individual power pulse is maybe a few milliamps. How do I know it's the average? I checked the discharge rate from the capacitor then I then found a resistor value that drained at the same exact rate. I then checked all my meters to see if any of them matched the milliamp rate from the calculation. It just so happened the meter I'm using was very close. A tiny tweak on the current adjustment made it just about right on.
I don't know if any of this is good for anything, but it's a fun alternative to the blocking oscillator for showing off Earth Batteries or other small potential cells.
I'd be happy to answer any questions.
John Hav

[DadHav]

Hello John, Patrick found the picture for us, but I think I've seen the wind on a 6 magnet motor video. Yes, it is Carl Hurst's picture. How do you feel about the wind? Maybe that's not fare. Do you know of any videos or conversations that have rendered good results from the configuration? I can see a few things that are useful, like it saves some wire length right? You could remove the coil from the rotor or the rotor from the coil easily. Also a coil form could be made to allow an air gap adjustment. Something like a Chinese finger trap if you know what I mean. I'm finding out in some cases the close air gap may not always be the best choice. Have you noticed this too.
Thanks John

John Hav

[DadHav]

Hello John, Thanks. I didn't think of trying a separate FWBR on L2 power coil. Normally it isn't to productive for me with the half or full wave, but this case may be different. I'll give it a try tomorrow when I get home. I could try charging two batteries separately that way, or series the two FWBR's and try two batteries in series. I haven't tried two batteries on the output of L3 yet either. It would really be funny to charge 2 for 1 with a half wave made from the little MPS-A06 / MPS-A56 - 2N2222. I wish I wouldn't have lost one of my triggers which checked open at the end of the wind. I wonder how this would be working on a full wave circuit. Well here's the thing though, I tried one side of my full wave board with the large MJL 21193-4 transistors and did not get the same results. The motor just had a tendency to want to run much faster. I have a feeling the frequency generated from the lower RPM of the small transistors is closer to having resonant tunning. My Son said I should take my vintage McIntosh stereo apart to see how the amplifier circuit is made. I have a feeling I'm looking at another flash in the pan that might disappear if I change anything at all. I hate to even talk about things like this if it's not likely to be duplicated easily. I may wind another motor and leave this one aside while a charge a few batteries with the one that's working. Anyway, I'll let you know what I find out next week. John Asked me to post the circuit from the low voltage / current video. I have to get to that too.
John Hav

[John_Koorn]

Now the question: If I would have had another identical power coil or two or three more could I charge a battery on each of them? This would seam to meet the description above. If L1 and L2 are running the motor and coil L3 was a good charger would L4 and L5 be equally as well? If so that would be great but here's the other thing: Would the load on the input go up with every battery connected? Would 2 for 1 actually mean you have more potential available from the two or three charged batteries than you had available from the run battery?
John Hav.

DadHav,

Yes, we'll thought out. I think you should try it and will be surprised.


John K.

[DadHav]

Hi John, I don't think I've seen all of Carl's motors but the ones I saw where called A field motors if I remember right and their coils where horizontal and to the sides of the rotor. I'll see if I can find a video of what I'm talking about. It looked like a good idea to me, but I haven't seen it implemented on a high quality build yet. I'm sure it will end up being something you've considered at one time or the other but we'll see.
John Hav.