The importance of using GOOD batteries

[Prinsloo]

This is an excellent thread. I have seen more people confused over the "Fluff" or surface charge and walk away.
My experience is that on the first charges with the SSG there is mostly just a surface charge. It may go well over 15 volts and level off, so I stop, let the battery rest a bit, and then discharge. At this point it would look as though the SSG performance is less than about 5% efficient as there is almost no real power in the battery. Then after several cycles Suddenly the battery will take forever to charge ( I believe this is where the plates are actually forming). Still making the SSG look extremely inefficient. this I call stage two. But the battery does begin to hold charge with a load. Then after a number of cycles everything begins to reverse. It begins to take a lot less time to charge and holds a charge for a much longer time. This is when I really begin to start seeing what my SSG is made of. I agree that this simple aspect has held many people back. It seems easy enough to understand now, but when new it really is a hard concept to grasp, I suppose it is because most are probably use to immediate gratification in our society these days.

I still don't say no to doorstops though as I am collecting lead for some alum experiments.....

Thank you John k, for this important thread!
Les

Hi LesK

Thanks for clearing that up ! ( experience is champion ! )

Are you referring to straight RE charging, do you think this cycle will also some how be seen when cap pulsing a battery?

Thanks

Theunis

[Mike Swanson]

Thanks also for this thread. My AGMs seemed to work okay (probably in the short term), but I am keen to replace them with proper flooded lead acid.

[Prinsloo]

24 of these 32Ah 1.2v NiCad cells for free !

Hi Guys

I can get 24 of these 32 Ah 1.2v NiCad cells, never used, date of manufacture is 2009, probably get them for free.

Apart from the disposal/recycle problem with these batteries I am aware of.

Can these be used for anything good, in a battery bank or such.

Any ideas if it is a good idea to take them?

Theunis

[James Milner]

Prinsloo, all I can tell you is I use mg sg to charge my drill battery. It's a 12v 2ah battery. When I charge it it shows some signs of cooling and noticeably cooler to the touch ( I'd love to actually measure it!). But once it hits the top of the charge curve it heats up noticeably. It must be stopped very soon after the top of the charge curve otherwise damage can occur. Nicd has good discharge characteristics and performs well on the sg.
What more can I say? Free is fantastic!

[John_Koorn]

Hi Theunis,

Absolutley you should take them. You could make two very good 32ah 14.4 volt banks out of those.

Follow James' advice. NiCds have a very different charge and discharge and discharge curves to a lead-acid battery. The SG works great on NiCds however you must monitor the voltage and don't heat them up or you will kill them quickly. Find out what NiCd charge curves are like so you know what to expect.

John K.

[John_Koorn]

This is an excellent thread. I have seen more people confused over the "Fluff" or surface charge and walk away.
My experience is that on the first charges with the SSG there is mostly just a surface charge. It may go well over 15 volts and level off, so I stop, let the battery rest a bit, and then discharge. At this point it would look as though the SSG performance is less than about 5% efficient as there is almost no real power in the battery. Then after several cycles Suddenly the battery will take forever to charge ( I believe this is where the plates are actually forming). Still making the SSG look extremely inefficient. this I call stage two. But the battery does begin to hold charge with a load. Then after a number of cycles everything begins to reverse. It begins to take a lot less time to charge and holds a charge for a much longer time. This is when I really begin to start seeing what my SSG is made of. I agree that this simple aspect has held many people back. It seems easy enough to understand now, but when new it really is a hard concept to grasp, I suppose it is because most are probably use to immediate gratification in our society these days.

I still don't say no to doorstops though as I am collecting lead for some alum experiments.....

Thank you John k, for this important thread!
Les

Thanks Les,

You're absolutely correct. That is exactly what a sulfated lead-acid battery behaves like.

I think that the people who really take the time to learn about batteries and their behaviour by researching and experimenting with them will be a lot more successful at this than the people who don't. It does take time though.

I ruined heaps of batteries and thought that the technology didn't work when I didn't get the results I thought I should when I first started with this. I still do ruin some batteries and have some that won't come back. Until you learn what they want and what to expect you are going to ruin some batteries and you won't be able to recover some other batteries. That doesn't mean the technology doesn't work though. It just means you either have a crap battery or have more to learn.

As soon as people learn that it's all about the batteries and not the machine, the sooner they will get the results they want.

John K.

[caldovicd]

Monitoring battery and creation of charging curve

I am looking for a while for voltage logger to log data to determine battery charging curve. This one seems OK for me. Does someone have experience with it? EL-USB-3 EasyLog Voltage Data Logger
Since it has measuring voltage range from 0-30V, what do you think - will SSG h wave peaks damage device? Similar West Mountain Radio CBA data logger has measuring voltage range 0-55V, and someone suggest to use it.

Still no reply to this post Maybe you think this device isn't good idea to use, or just maybe no one have experience with it. Maybe you have other suggestions? How do you make your battery charging curve? There must be better way than to sit beside battery and writing down values every minute. Please help. Someone. Anyone.

[Brian McNece]

The west mountain CBA is a nice unit if you want to log your discharge cycles, also radio shack has a DMM with PC hookup connections that allow you to chart from the DMM directly to your PC. You don't say if you are in the U.S.A or not,but I would imagine you could still get either one of these online. There are other units available but not familiar with any thing else. These two work fine and are decent value for dollars spent.

Still no reply to this post Maybe you think this device isn't good idea to use, or just maybe no one have experience with it. Maybe you have other suggestions? How do you make your battery charging curve? There must be better way than to sit beside battery and writing down values every minute. Please help. Someone. Anyone.

[Robert Darrah]

Hi John K.,

I feel better reading this, as my heap only has 4 batteries on it. So far. It took me about 15 cycles to ruin 2 l&g batteries with my 5 filar, and as I gained proficiency in the art of destroying batteries I managed to ruin 2 more in only 5 cycles with my 8 filar, so saving myself 10 cycles.

They were all new EverStart batteries from Wal-mart and as they are probably coming from China I suspected the quality might not be great. So I got an 85ah Trojan true deep cycle and am trying that at the moment.

The question I have is what ruins the batteries? If you're staying within the c20 rate, and I was with both sets I ruined, then what happened to them? Do you have any tips on what to and what not to do, or insights into what causes them to go bad? I'd thought maybe because they are starter batteries and not so robust that the maybe they were being charged too hard and the lead sponge was coming off, but I'm just guessing. Suggestions?

thanks,

Robert

[Prinsloo]

84 x 13A 1.2v NiCad cells

Hi Guys / JohnK

Ended up to be 84 x 13A 1.2v NiCad cells , I did not see the 2nd full crate underneath, (sorry, had to give this one for myself !)

OK GUYS NOW WHAT ?

Which is better straight RE from the SSG charging or cap pulse charging for these cells ?

lets hear some suggestion, 7 x 12 volt banks or 3 x 24 volt banks ?

Was thinking, maybe using these NiCad's as a primary batt sett (can charge from solar) for the SSG and charge the secondary bank, 8 x 12v 177Amp Telco bateries?

I need to get my mind to start chewing on different options, any ideas. (Still waiting for them to deliver the stand for the bats so I can connect them up)

Maybe I can convert an Uno into a small electric car!

Theunis

[Prinsloo]

OOOKKKKKK

Looks like I'm at the wrong FORUM !

Anybody ?

Theunis

[James Milner]

Prinsloo,
What you have is GOLD! These things commonly sell for 3x what a lead acid costs!!!
You can't buy these readily anymore! Certainly here in Australia!
The great thing is that the output of these baby's is very high. That is they can cope with very high current, can cycle lower in voltage than pb acid therefore ideally suited to an electric vehicle.
They will charge great straight from the SG, no cap dump needed. Mind you i haven't tried cap dump! In using the SG you will need a thermal switch or something similar such as a delta V circuit to detect the downswing that comes after reaching full capacity.
You could use the batteries at the primary end, but would need to tune the circuit to use these batteries....they do behave a little different to lead acid batteries as their internal resistance is different.
NiCd's are no good for float type use. They generally like large discharge and then charge type uses, and can deliver very large amps if required.
They would be better than Lead acid in starting large household items such as airconditioners etc due to their ability to cope with high surge currents.
In otherwords find something your lead acids can't quite do and these will most likely be able to do it!
As I said teamed with an SG, GOLD!!!!

[Prinsloo]

Thanks James

Took 12 cells and charged them with the SG this weekend, they took to it like a fish to water, even saw the peak on the charge at 1.44 volts per cell and the subsequent temp rise in the cells from 25.6 C to 26.1 C and switched them of.

Will really need to get my mind going on these to get the full use out of them.

Thanks for your info, really appreciate the it.

Theunis

[Tom C]

Hi Guys / JohnK

Ended up to be 84 x 13A 1.2v NiCad cells , I did not see the 2nd full crate underneath, (sorry, had to give this one for myself !)

OK GUYS NOW WHAT ?

Which is better straight RE from the SSG charging or cap pulse charging for these cells ?

lets hear some suggestion, 7 x 12 volt banks or 3 x 24 volt banks ?

Was thinking, maybe using these NiCad's as a primary batt sett (can charge from solar) for the SSG and charge the secondary bank, 8 x 12v 177Amp Telco bateries?

I need to get my mind to start chewing on different options, any ideas. (Still waiting for them to deliver the stand for the bats so I can connect them up)

Maybe I can convert an Uno into a small electric car!

Theunis

Well since you asked,

pure radiant is the way to go for nicads, they act both like a storage battery and like a capacitor..... you must start with just a couple to see how they charge, slowly work your way up. if you use solar standard style with a charge controller to charge them they will slowly wear out.

Nice find, remember nicads like to explode with Radiant so cover them with some plexi when charging.

Tom C

[Prinsloo]

Hi TomC

I need to ask ! ! ! ! !

I will use a solar panel to drive the SG and the SG to charge the nicads, as I did over the weekend, (will now be forced to finish my 8 coiler)

Oops, under what conditions would radiant explode nicads? or are you just pulling my leg ! ouch !

Thank you for the advice Tom !

Theunis