Branch's SSG Build

[Branch Gordon]

Thank you for your comment Patrick. Do you mind elaborating further? Why do you want more magneto effect, and not just the minimum required to get it to trigger? Does more saturation create a larger spike?

I realize these are probably noob questions, but I've never really understand the whole coil gap thing.

The further you pull it away the less magneto effect there will be. I do think it's an interesting decision though, for attempting to rejuvenate this large bank... and if it does not seem to be working you can push it closer, see if you can blast some of that sulfation.
Patrick

[Branch Gordon]

Here is my vid for tonight, documenting runs 2, 3, and 4. Coil gap modified.

[John_Koorn]

Hey John...good to hear from you!

Re: coil gap...I moved the coil really far away so that it wouldn't trigger at all. I gave the wheel a good spin...and then slowly moved the coil back closer until it started triggering and took off.

I recall you stating previously in this thread that you set the coil gap for max RPM, but I've never really understood why. I've always thought it made sense to have the minimum amount of saturation...I can run 1 spike this way for about 250mA less than if I move the coil to 1/8".

Do you mind elaborating on why you set the coil gap for max RPM?

Branch, I believe its more efficient because the faster the wheel is turning the shorter the time the transistors are on. This means that you're not consuming as much power from the primary (for a single cycle). At the speed our bike wheels are turning the transistors are on for way longer than they need to be to saturate the coil core. Remember, any time you are over-saturating the coil core you are wasting primary power. This waste power is converted to heat in the coil and the transistors.

Now, of course the faster the wheel is turning the more magnet passes per second and overall probably more energy taken from the primary - but that's offset by more charging as well.

John K.

[jelloir]

Hi Branch, Looking where that battery is flattening out could be you need to push the input a bit harder. you probably won't get a 150AH Trojan past 14V on a single coil (7 filar?) SSG even if the battery is in good condition. There is not enough current on the output to push it. You could try a higher input voltage to hammer the output harder but make sure your magnets are well secured and increase the series resistance before you start and monitor heat from the devices closely. Be careful if you use 24V input because your SSG will become a growling super charger.

To put it in perspective, I use 16V input on my 8 filar SSG and 24 volts input on my 7 filar SSG to push my 8V 170AH Trojans to 10V. 12V input is not enough to top them. I wasn't able to see any significant gains in rejuvenation for these large batteries until I increased the input voltage to get them up to their rated "equalization" voltage.

I think I mentioned a while ago about my 12V 150AH Trojans, I would put them on my TST5 after I saw them flattening out like yours, even though the TST5 is constant current it definitely helped to rejuvenate the batteries, even my 2A12 helped in fact. I am now using these 12V Trojans on my SSG input.

James

P.S. That's one of the new Teslagenx SSG kits isn't it? How did you get your hands on that... Nice!

[min2oly]

Here is my vid for tonight, documenting runs 2, 3, and 4. Coil gap modified.

It looks like it liked the slow charge better? Those big "bumps" in your chart where you moved the coil closer is part of what you get with more magneto. Perhaps there is more desulfation going on??? Take a look at your wave form as well. look at the spike, the discharge time as well as that small ramp you have during switching while the coil is further away. Each of those should change as you move the coil closer or farther away. My guess is you have a bad cell someplace. Those are multiple batteries right? If so try charging one at a time, if needed (seeing neons light up) couple it up (parallel) with a known good battery. You probably already know this stuff, say'n just in case :-)

I wish I had a clean answer for you on the magneto. The way I see it... if we take a switch, put a battery across a coil (charge it), then let go giving sparky a destination via diode/ground to another battery there is X amount of energy that ends up in the charge battery. If we do the exact same thing and ADD a passing magnet AT THE RIGHT TIME the energy in the coil is compressed more, and the energy we use from the primary is less because resistance to it is higher, and the energy that goes to our "charge battery" is X(to a larger exponent). Kind of lame explanation, but I have no maths for it

KR - Patrick

[Branch Gordon]

Branch Gordon

Yes a hydrometer test a few weeks back revealed a bad cell. I am only charging one at a time. In the video you see multiple batteries but they aren't connected. I have 8 of these that I'm trying to restore.

Thank you for attempting to explain. Some of it makes sense, however for now I'm taking everyone's word for it and moving my coil closer. When I have some extra time I am going to dial it in for max RPM.

I have started a charge run pulling 3 amps just to see where it ends up, based on Jelloir's comments. I'll be posting another vid of how everything looks.

It looks like it liked the slow charge better? Those big "bumps" in your chart where you moved the coil closer is part of what you get with more magneto. Perhaps there is more desulfation going on??? Take a look at your wave form as well. look at the spike, the discharge time as well as that small ramp you have during switching while the coil is further away. Each of those should change as you move the coil closer or farther away. My guess is you have a bad cell someplace. Those are multiple batteries right? If so try charging one at a time, if needed (seeing neons light up) couple it up (parallel) with a known good battery. You probably already know this stuff, say'n just in case :-)

I wish I had a clean answer for you on the magneto. The way I see it... if we take a switch, put a battery across a coil (charge it), then let go giving sparky a destination via diode/ground to another battery there is X amount of energy that ends up in the charge battery. If we do the exact same thing and ADD a passing magnet AT THE RIGHT TIME the energy in the coil is compressed more, and the energy we use from the primary is less because resistance to it is higher, and the energy that goes to our "charge battery" is X(to a larger exponent). Kind of lame explanation, but I have no maths for it

KR - Patrick

[min2oly]

Yes a hydrometer test a few weeks back revealed a bad cell. I am only charging one at a time. In the video you see multiple batteries but they aren't connected. I have 8 of these that I'm trying to restore.

Thank you for attempting to explain. Some of it makes sense, however for now I'm taking everyone's word for it and moving my coil closer. When I have some extra time I am going to dial it in for max RPM.

I have started a charge run pulling 3 amps just to see where it ends up, based on Jelloir's comments. I'll be posting another vid of how everything looks.

If you hit it hard enough with the magneto (coil close) that cell just might desulphate enough. Then you can flush out the cell after a few runs, replace with new acid and/or filter the acid you have, and see if it's still shorted. You have to flush it hard though. I had some luck with 2/5 car batteries using that technique.
KR - Patrick

[Branch Gordon]

I changed my mind about doing a 3 amp run just yet. I'm gonna stick with 1.5A and a close coil...see how it looks after a few runs. Don't want to change too much all at once.

Not sure why, but I have discovered that I get a higher RPM if I spin the wheel counter-clockwise vs. clockwise. It may be because of this fixed axle...the bike wheel tends to drift so that the magnet may not be exactly centered over the core of the coil. It can drift when I spin clockwise, but cannot counter-clockwise.

[Branch Gordon]

John K...this all makes sense! Thank you for the explanation.

Branch, I believe its more efficient because the faster the wheel is turning the shorter the time the transistors are on. This means that you're not consuming as much power from the primary (for a single cycle). At the speed our bike wheels are turning the transistors are on for way longer than they need to be to saturate the coil core. Remember, any time you are over-saturating the coil core you are wasting primary power. This waste power is converted to heat in the coil and the transistors.

Now, of course the faster the wheel is turning the more magnet passes per second and overall probably more energy taken from the primary - but that's offset by more charging as well.

John K.

[Branch Gordon]

Hey Jolloir, thanks for your suggestions! I may have to try some of all of this if I can't get this battery charged up.

I did put one of these other batteries on the TST5 today and it made a slow steady climb to 14V before it got cloudy. So that's one battery I know is gonna come back to life.

Yeah it's one of the Teslagenx kits. They are for sale! Just hit up Tom C. Really nice...solid...and as you have heard...quiet.

Hi Branch, Looking where that battery is flattening out could be you need to push the input a bit harder. you probably won't get a 150AH Trojan past 14V on a single coil (7 filar?) SSG even if the battery is in good condition. There is not enough current on the output to push it. You could try a higher input voltage to hammer the output harder but make sure your magnets are well secured and increase the series resistance before you start and monitor heat from the devices closely. Be careful if you use 24V input because your SSG will become a growling super charger.

To put it in perspective, I use 16V input on my 8 filar SSG and 24 volts input on my 7 filar SSG to push my 8V 170AH Trojans to 10V. 12V input is not enough to top them. I wasn't able to see any significant gains in rejuvenation for these large batteries until I increased the input voltage to get them up to their rated "equalization" voltage.

I think I mentioned a while ago about my 12V 150AH Trojans, I would put them on my TST5 after I saw them flattening out like yours, even though the TST5 is constant current it definitely helped to rejuvenate the batteries, even my 2A12 helped in fact. I am now using these 12V Trojans on my SSG input.

James

P.S. That's one of the new Teslagenx SSG kits isn't it? How did you get your hands on that... Nice!

[John_Koorn]

Hey Branch, I'm with jelloir. I'm not sure you're not going to be able to charge up that size battery unless you crank up the primary voltage.

It's hard to tell how good a new setup is if testing it on bad batteries. If it was me, I'd get a benchmark with a known good battery first. Get the machine tuned up and then do a charge run with a good battery - find out how full it will charge. Need to get it to the magical 15.3v.

Believe me, I've toasted many good batteries by using under-sized setups and not charging them fully. Live & learn, smile & wave

John K.

[Branch Gordon]

Well I know I can charge my primary battery (225AH) with 3 amps straight DC....I was doing that before I added more panels..took forever but it charged. Of course that's with whatever voltage that panels are running at too...22V or something? So that's 66 watts going into the battery.

Is it possible to figure the equivalent for the wheel, or does it not work that way? So if I'm getting at least a 100V spike x 1.5A, that's 150 watt punches right?

I have a couple of these identical batteries that are taking a full charge from the TST5...so I'll probably do as you are suggesting and see if I can top them off with the SG. I'm not sure how much current the Teslagenx board can support just at 12V. I have run at 3A before but have never gone higher than that.

Hey Branch, I'm with jelloir. I'm not sure you're not going to be able to charge up that size battery unless you crank up the primary voltage.

It's hard to tell how good a new setup is if testing it on bad batteries. If it was me, I'd get a benchmark with a known good battery first. Get the machine tuned up and then do a charge run with a good battery - find out how full it will charge. Need to get it to the magical 15.3v.

Believe me, I've toasted many good batteries by using under-sized setups and not charging them fully. Live & learn, smile & wave

John K.

[jelloir]

Hi Branch, was about to type a post and figured a vid would be better. Hope it helps.

[min2oly]

Well I know I can charge my primary battery (225AH) with 3 amps straight DC....I was doing that before I added more panels..took forever but it charged. Of course that's with whatever voltage that panels are running at too...22V or something? So that's 66 watts going into the battery.

Is it possible to figure the equivalent for the wheel, or does it not work that way?

Branch, that would be an excellent experiment if you ever had the time. I don't want to distract w/ what you are doing now... but also for anyone else spinning a wheel:

Charge your primary with 3amps (or whatever your charger does) keep track of the watts/joules

then do the same 3amps on the input of the SSG and see if it charges faster or slower than when you hook it up to straight DC. figure out how many joules that is. Watts x seconds = joules.

Then do another run at the further coil distance. Run it for the same amount of Joules at the lower 250-ish mA you spoke of earlier.

I do this with my solar panels (get better charging w/ my CPD-SS-SSG), and I did it many years ago w/ smaller batteries and a bi-filer coil (did not get better charging). however I have not done it with my new wheel and the 7 transistor setup. I'm using the wheel for something else right now or I'd do it myself...

KR- Patrick

[John_Koorn]

jelloir, great video. You might want to try 470 ohm base resistors and a lower master base resistor - maybe about 10 ohms. But yes, you can see my point about over-saturating the coil and it heating up a little as a result. The machine will do this at higher input voltages. Will be interesting to see your rejuvenation results after a few runs.

Branch, the only way you're going to be able to see if you're going to be able to charge those big batteries is to try. You're not going to be able to figure that out by attempting to calculate it as it it's pulsed DC - almost impossible to do accurately without very expensive equipment. The question is, is the battery being fully charged?

As jelloir shows on his video, the TeslagenX 8 transistor SG board can run at 24v no problems. I've taken it higher, because we have to test everything we make and push it to the limits before we start selling it. Just make sure you don't accidentally disconnect the charge battery when doing this or the transistors will catch on fire. It's a pain matching up 8 transistors again

John K.