Why not shown how to charge one battery with the other at the offical Bedini forum?

[Kamen]

Hi Gary,

What are the specs of the fan you are using? After experimenting with various ways to slow the wheel down I will try with a fan. Can you also share a good place to purchase the steel shaft? For the fan I was looking at http://www.remichel.com/ which sells parts for A/C units. Their fans come in sizes of 16", 18", 22", 26" and the fins are under various angles from 16 to 31 degrees. The different fans may be a good way to experiment with various load options.

Kamen

[Gary Hammond]

Hi Kamen,

They are 14" diameter, five blade, Dayton aluminum fans model #2MXX7 with 1/2" bore. I ordered them from Grainger. The specs are on the web page. Here's the link. https://www.grainger.com/product/DAY...XX7?s_pp=false

The shaft is just 1/2" bar stock available at most hardware stores and the ball bearings I got from Fastenal.

[Gary Hammond]

Hi John,

Thanks Gary, those are the numbers I would expect from the machine. They are pretty close to the numbers we got in JB's shop with the bike wheel kit.

Anyone should be able to get these numbers, just build it like Gary has

John K.

I don't know if you noticed or not, but I was running it in generator mode. I haven't run the numbers yet in radiant mode as the wheel has enough turning resistance that it gives double pulses in radiant mode. If I speed it up with compressed air, it will go into single pulses and stay there. I need to get the free spin time up. It's only giving me about 5.5 minutes free spin time. My old wheel was at 11.5 minutes.

It gives only one pulse/magnet in generator mode with both fans, so that's what I checked out first!

[Kamen]

One thing I did to go into Radiant mode is to start charging in Generator mode first. Then when the battery is fully charged or almost charged the wheel was spinning fast enough where switching it to Radiant allowed it continue momentum and go into single pulse per magnet. Then the charging completes with Radiant. Haven't done any COP calculations to see if that "double" charge is better or worse than Generator only mode. But this is what John Bedini suggested to start in Generator until the battery impedance gets lower and then go to Radiant so it completes charging faster. In my case I used a 16A DPDT switch that flip between Generator and Radiant modes.

To slow the wheel and reduce amp draw I connected an old stepper motor to the shaft. It just adds some mechanical resistance. Now the primary draw is 1A in Radiant and 2A in Generator mode using 7 power strands with 470 Ohm in in parallel and 12 Ohms in series.

Another interesting thing I discovered was regarding the Generator mode diode. I tried five diodes ranging from 10A to a 140A thinking the larger silicon die may help. The diodes trr (Reverse Recovery Time) ran from 500ns to 50ns. Well to my surprise the 140A diode performed the same as a 10A one. And the recovery time from Standard (500ns) to fast (50ns) worked the same as far as RPM and primary draw. Except, one of those diodes rated at 12A and 50ns trr gave me 12 percent increase in RPM and 2 percent reduce in amp draw and at the same time it got really hot!!! This was so weird that I retested all five diodes again to double-check the RPMs and amp draw. The diode that game me higher RPM and reduced draw was IXYS DSEI 12-10A and it had to be bolted to a heat sink. This diode is a FRED (Fast Recovery Epitaxial Diode). Thinking this may be something worth exploring I just ordered the IXYS HiPerFRED DSEP 12-12A to see how it performs.

If someone has anything to share about the Generator mode diode or using both Generator (first) and Radiant (second) charge modes could you please share your discoveries with the group.

Kamen

[Gary Hammond]

Hi Kamen,

I was running in generator mode without the diode. Just negative to negative. I tested it both with the diode and without the diode, and without the diode gave a little better charging for me. I was using two 1N5408 (3amp/1000v) diodes in parallel (with leads twisted together) for the diode.

I may have to try the DPDT switch. Sounds like a good idea to me!

[Kamen]

Hi Gary,

This is very interesting about not using the diode and getting a better charge. Have you seen the EFV DVD 34 filmed at the last conference? While John Bedini was talking one of his friends took the microphone and described why NOT using the diode is a bad idea. The reason given was that without the diode the charge can go back in a sense that the electrolyte will charge and discharge with each pulse. However if you use the diode the energy can flow in one direction and just keep charging. This is at least how I understood it. I am doing some conditioning of the batteries right now with regular charger, but once that's done I will try Generator mode without the diode to see what it does. When I briefly tried that before the RPM went way down without the diode. With the diode it was faster and when using Radiant it was even faster.

Kamen

[Tom C]

nice work gary! once you get your free spin times up it will get better. wondered when I was gonna see that coil used

Tom C

[hobbyrobotik]

Hi Gary,

thank you for giving us the pictures and the results. Yes the temperature has effect to the voltage and the charge/discharge parameters.
Is it possible to make screen copy fromyour pic #4 and pic #5 to see the curves and values clearer?

have a nice day

[Dave Wing]

Hi Gary,

1)Have you tested each battery for C-20 amp hour rating? If so how many actual amp hours did your primary and secondary batteries turn out to be?

2)Have you tried to fully charge one of the above, known amp hour batteries, that were discharged fully @ the C-20 rate to 10.5 volts (agm or deepcycle conditioned battery)or 12.2volts (if a conditioned starter battery) with one fully charged primary battery of known amp hour rating? What were the results? Did you get 1:1 with this configuration? I do believe that was the question forelle had actually asked.

Interested to hear your results or any others that may have recorded these actual results.

Thanks,

Dave Wing

[Gary Hammond]

Hi Guys,

@Kamen ...........I was at the conference and heard that as well. I also have both EFV DVD 33 and EFV DVD 34. I just decided to experiment with it because Patrick and some others reported good results without the diode.

@Tom ............Thanks Tom My dad passed away shortly after I got home from the conference, so my sister and I had to spend a lot of time settling his estate. Then I bought a go kart for the grandkids. That, the Bradley, and some honey-do jobs took up the rest of the year. Then there were a couple of one week vacations and the holidays thrown in. Family first you know!

@Hobbyrobotic ...............Those were the two charge curves I reported on. I'll try uploading a screen shot of them and the last discharge curve as well latter today or tomorrow.

@Dave Wing .........................1) It's been a few months since I checked the capacity of each battery. I think the charge battery was about 8 or 9 AH's and the paralleled primaries together were also about 8 or 9 AH last time I checked with a .65 amp draw to 12.0 volts. The batteries are nearly four years old and have been somewhat abused.

2) I ran a whole series of tests like that in radiant mode with my second ssg both in repulsion and attraction. I even tried the cap dump from the intermediate handbook. Probably a total of 80 to 100 runs. Never did get over about 1.5 in to 1 out in terms of AH's. Was real discouraged until I tried charge mode at a lower, specifically consistent one AH rate. Even then I was only getting 1.5 in to 1 out with the second build ssg.

3) I've only had my new ssg (third build) going for a couple of days now and reported on both runs with it! Great improvement over the last machine I put together. I still have to increase it's free spin time though before I do any serious runs in radiant mode.

[Gary Hammond]

Hi Hobbyrobotic,

Here's the page scans of the two charge curves and the discharge curve in between.

[min2oly]

Hi Kamen,
What were the battery voltages both for the

charging battery -
and the
primary run battery -

when you employed the Neg2Neg without the diode?

Did anyone happen to catch the 4th mode in vid 33?
Thanks,
Patrick

Hi Gary,

This is very interesting about not using the diode and getting a better charge. Have you seen the EFV DVD 34 filmed at the last conference? While John Bedini was talking one of his friends took the microphone and described why NOT using the diode is a bad idea. The reason given was that without the diode the charge can go back in a sense that the electrolyte will charge and discharge with each pulse. However if you use the diode the energy can flow in one direction and just keep charging. This is at least how I understood it. I am doing some conditioning of the batteries right now with regular charger, but once that's done I will try Generator mode without the diode to see what it does. When I briefly tried that before the RPM went way down without the diode. With the diode it was faster and when using Radiant it was even faster.

Kamen

[Kamen]

Hi Patrick,

It has been a while since I tried Generator mode without the diode. If I remember correctly the Charging battery voltage climbed very fast but can't remember what the Primary voltage did. The wheel RPM decreased dramatically almost like the magnet was struggling to go pass the coil. As soon as I get my batteries conditioned a little better I will try that again. What was your experience with that?

From DVDs 33 and 34 I believe John demonstrated five different modes. Can't wait to purchase the Small Comparator from TeslagenX and try them all.
1. RADIANT
2. GENERATOR with DIODE
3. GENERATOR without DIODE
4. CAP DISCHARGE
5. CAP DISCHARGE with GENERATOR DIODE

Kamen

[Tom C]

Kamen,

That is a good list... you can add
all of those modes with a branch modification splitting the output to more than one cap dump... branch mode in gen mode is also very interesting.

Tom C

[Yaro1776]

COP Hump

Hey Dave,

Thanks for your expert interest in the question posted by Forelle - in my opinion, he is basically frustrated in not being able to live up to the standard of 1:1 COP with his Bedini build as is touted by the principals of this forum. The forum's statement is somewhat unclear in that the "SSG will do one to one" on the primary battery to charge battery exchange of energy (meaning a fully charged exchange) never alluding to the Mode that will accomplish this. The frustration out there is the fact the stock build ( 7 and 8 transistor) in Mode 1 (shall we call it Radiant mode?) yields about a 0.5 COP for the Primary to Charge exchange, give or take, for many of the experimenters, being of course, "unskilled in the art" which may be part of the problem.

Anyway, the mantra for the builds has been max speed, vary the gap, vary the resistance yada,yada based on years of experience to gain the desired result, all very well documented on the forum. I do not dispute the point! Still their (new builders) net efforts have not produced enlightenment in Germany, Austria or other close and distant climes. Some of the problems and frustrations, perhaps self inflicted, are, no doubt, due to the learning process.

So Dave, getting to the point - yes, the current Snowman 8 transistor build has gone through many hours of charge and discharge. The Primary output and Charge input amperage have been measured with a good quality clamp DC meter using new system batteries. The C20 discharging is done with a 6 watt 12v auto bulb . In all the testing to date, there has been very good agreement between these amperage values and the actual battery discharge capacities. Being a Luddite, I normally opt for the simplified methodology and leave the more technical aspects for the more stringent focus testing.

For example, a 230cca 12 volt battery used as a Primary output source for an identical Charge battery (both conditioned of course) on a 8 transistor build tuned to max speed etc will require about 1.75 amps output (give or take) and input about 0.9 amps to the charge battery yielding an approximate Input/Output ratio of 0.5.

So in essence, in this instance, it takes nearly 2 Primary charges of a 9.5 amp hr batteries (tested) to bring a 9.2 amp hr Charge battery (tested) to 15.3v from 12.2v and then subsequently discharged down to 12.2v at C20. The Charge battery COP will consistently reflect a 1:1 ratio, while Charge/Primary COP (~0.5) here has been very reflective of the I/O amp ratio. Of course the wild card here is the elusive Radiant.

This is repeatable and has been many times! Of course there are those anomalies that push you to think outside of the box...

So the critical point here, is a 1:1 exchange between Primary and Charge battery doable in a 21 magnet build Mode 1 for a 7 and 8 transistor standard build tuned with a nominal 26" wheel? That I believe is the pivotal question that is the frustration point for many builders beyond normal points of inexperience. Can an example of this be shown to uplift the many builders and benign lurkers? There is a huge following here...

As one of the respected elders we rely on your wisdom and knowledge. Your attention is appreciated and thoroughly apologize for putting you on the spot. If there are reticent builders out there that are over this hump - speak up and support the effort!

Still immensely enjoying this adventure,
Yaro