Tuning Method and Questions for Forum on Setup- Please Assist

[applied_casimir]

1/ What is the correct gap distance from the coil to the incoming magnet?

I have it at 4mm+ though I have been advised that anywhere between 3.5-5mm is adequate
Throughout the past days I have changed the distance numerous times which has elasticated varying results as one would expect from Laws of Magnetic Forces. At 5+mm the reaction and RPM were far more diminished while at <3mm it was impeding the wheelspin speed. At my current setting I am receiving a adequate amount of wheelspin speed- 274 RPM.

2/ The tuning method and confirmation of sweet-tune resistance https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sr14...ature=youtu.be

I look forward to your advice, assistance on this so I may be able to move pass the current annoying basic part of this build and into the more critical and interesting parts of this build- the COP tests and Self-Run Cap Dump modes.

I dont have much time but once I have the basic principle done then the possibilities are limitless.

[BobZilla]

Hello and welcome to the group.

To your first question about coil gap:
You are in the ball park. There really is not a set distance that can be defined because each machine will perform a little differently but you are where you need to be to expect decent results. As you get more familiar with how your machine runs you can experiment with changing the gap.

Second question about the "sweet spot":
Let me first say that everyone has their own opinions about where these machines should be tuned too. Some say one spike per pass, others two, some say many. I generally preferred two per pass most of the time. Now understand that when you dial in to a spike per pass slot be it one or two there is still an optimum space within that setting. What you will find is that just before the machie would slip to a lower slot, what I mean is if you are running one spike per pass and lower down to two per pass, just before it drops into that new slot you will be drawing much less. Decide which slot you would like to run in and back it down until it is almost ready to drop to the next slot. Then you want to fine tune within that slot by going back the other direction a little. This causes a little more current to be drawn but also increases the output. So to put it another way say you have a range within a 2 per pass slot,, to far one way or the other and you will slip into one per pass or three per pass, with me? So you want to tune so that you go almost to slipping into three per pass and then go back the other way just a little. I know this may be hard to understand and it is hard to explain as well but with some experience you will start to know the machine and you will start to understand in more detail what is actually going on.

Have a look at this old video of a two coiler I had. If you are not sure what I am saying about these per pass slots this will allow you to visualize it. Without a timming light you can still tell these "slots" on your machine by listening closely, when you drop from one slot to another it will growl and the current draw will shoot up momentarily.

Video link:
https://1drv.ms/v/s!AmzmftzD-V0mhX-kWK2pVjeduLNL

Stick with it my friend, I can already see that you will have success in this adventure because you seem to be detail oriented. IT TAKES TIME for you to start understanding the machine, there is no shortcut. People can tell you all sorts of things but until you have the contextual awareness gained from experience much of it will not click for you.

[John_Koorn]

Welcome to another Aussie

To test if your setup is in attraction or repulsion mode hold the wheel with a magnet just near the coil centre. Briefly (with both batteries connected), short out the collector and emitter of the transistor. A short piece of wire works well.

If the magnet is attracted to the coil you're in attraction mode. If repelled, you're in repulsion mode.

Ideally you should be in attraction mode, but the machine will run in either.

John K.

[applied_casimir]

Hello and welcome to the group.

To your first question about coil gap:
You are in the ball park. There really is not a set distance that can be defined because each machine will perform a little differently but you are where you need to be to expect decent results. As you get more familiar with how your machine runs you can experiment with changing the gap.

Second question about the "sweet spot":
Let me first say that everyone has their own opinions about where these machines should be tuned too. Some say one spike per pass, others two, some say many. I generally preferred two per pass most of the time. Now understand that when you dial in to a spike per pass slot be it one or two there is still an optimum space within that setting. What you will find is that just before the machie would slip to a lower slot, what I mean is if you are running one spike per pass and lower down to two per pass, just before it drops into that new slot you will be drawing much less. Decide which slot you would like to run in and back it down until it is almost ready to drop to the next slot. Then you want to fine tune within that slot by going back the other direction a little. This causes a little more current to be drawn but also increases the output. So to put it another way say you have a range within a 2 per pass slot,, to far one way or the other and you will slip into one per pass or three per pass, with me? So you want to tune so that you go almost to slipping into three per pass and then go back the other way just a little. I know this may be hard to understand and it is hard to explain as well but with some experience you will start to know the machine and you will start to understand in more detail what is actually going on.

Have a look at this old video of a two coiler I had. If you are not sure what I am saying about these per pass slots this will allow you to visualize it. Without a timming light you can still tell these "slots" on your machine by listening closely, when you drop from one slot to another it will growl and the current draw will shoot up momentarily.

Video link:
https://1drv.ms/v/s!AmzmftzD-V0mhX-kWK2pVjeduLNL

Stick with it my friend, I can already see that you will have success in this adventure because you seem to be detail oriented. IT TAKES TIME for you to start understanding the machine, there is no shortcut. People can tell you all sorts of things but until you have the contextual awareness gained from experience much of it will not click for you.

Bobzilla,

Thanks for the greeting and the video link.

1- Coil-Magnet Gap

Good to hear. For each motor build how do you find you can determine each distance? What characteristics of each build would be of interest? How would you test that the distance is appropriate to not stall wheelspin while also providing appropriate force? Is it wheelspeed vs current draw? And would the coil/core and wheel diameter dictate this? I would say you could measure the magnetic flux in these situations?

2- Sweet Spot

So a slot = a sweet-tune range? I have never heard of this term being used

It seems being in possession of a Oscilloscope would greatly help visualising the spike passes but is there a mechanical or circuit feedback means to assess the machines no.of spike passes? I understand what you mean by the ‘growling’ and ammeter characteristics which is what I was alluding to in my video. From what you have described would I be correct to state that the point in question would be exactly where the dial first shoots up? Is there a test to determine if my machine is properly tuned?

On the point of ‘slot’ performance- What differences have you found in output voltage vs input voltage and the charge retained in the output battery between different spike pass for the same slot? And each slot? Is their differences for values in slots and values between slots? I would expect there would be but I talking more % significance

Out of curiosity did you watch all my video? Because I demonstrated what seems to be similar to your tuning description. Is the point in the video where the current dial greatly increases the beginning of the spike slot?

Also, how do you setup the timing light? Is it a stronger light pulse towards 3 spikes per pass? Is there a timing lapse to be aware of?

To summarise on this- it seems that all I have to do is reach the point for where the ammeter displays the characteristic then choose a point 2/3rd of the way in that range. That is the resistance lower then that which triggered the dial surge but high enough for considerable output voltage

3- Your Video

In the LED Timing Test what should one focus on? That there is extra light or pulsing in each different slot? The delay between magnet and lighting?
What Batteries are you using? Is there much difference in tuning in your multi-coil setup?

Finally, while it will take time and great effort for me to progress further with this machine, I do not have years to simply plug away in a hobby-like manner and so I am seeking out the correct help and advise to lead my efforts/learning on the effective path of RESULTS. The importance of my work is to attain a Self-Run machine that will contribute to a self-reliant power supply(which I would assume is why most people are mainly here). Of course this topic is of interest but there is not much time in the world remaining given the scenario of things to have a comfortable understanding. With hard work we can use this scenario to demonstrate the validity in a practical sense to all for the possibilities of applications for ZPE.

[applied_casimir]

Welcome to another Aussie

To test if your setup is in attraction or repulsion mode hold the wheel with a magnet just near the coil centre. Briefly (with both batteries connected), short out the collector and emitter of the transistor. A short piece of wire works well.

If the magnet is attracted to the coil you're in attraction mode. If repelled, you're in repulsion mode.

Ideally you should be in attraction mode, but the machine will run in either.

John K.

John,

I am not an Aussie, but thank you for your kind welcome nonetheless. It seems you are from Victoria, a place which has nice organic food outlets and beautiful countryside especially the mountains outside of Melbourne. I have noticed throughout Bedini’s videos and this forum that there is a lot of events related to ZPE and Bedini Motor SG based around Amerika and although this would be expected, it would be great to see and organise for those in Australia both permenant and visiting, local Bedini Builder groups to meetup in their respective places. From what I have seen of hackerspaces and maker faires, there is a lot of benefits to physical groups. This could also be applied to Europa whereabouts there is significant interest in these applications. Things to contemplate...

‘To test if your setup is in attraction or repulsion mode hold the wheel with a magnet just near the coil centre. Briefly (with both batteries connected), short out the collector and emitter of the transistor. A short piece of wire works well.If the magnet is attracted to the coil you're in attraction mode. If repelled, you're in repulsion mode.
Ideally you should be in attraction mode, but the machine will run in either.’

Is there a diagram of this? And are you talking about the coil centre with the coil pointing upwards vertically as I would already have it mounted? That is the centre of the core rod on the north facing end?

And I take it IF one was in repulsion mode you could change this through the coil?

I am going to do another video on my youtube test channel and a few seconds are devoted to just confirming this with you among other things

[applied_casimir]

Note to all- I am asking lots of questions about everything involved so in order to gain a complete and exact understanding so that I may achieve the proper foundation for this work and the best results for my build. Your advise is already making a difference and hopefully will improve all

[Tom C]

Applied,

simple to figure out.... the start of the coil, ( the first turn on the coil) needs to be at the bottom of the coil in reference to the bike wheel. the other end of the coil needs to be on the magnet face side. these wires are also the wires that go to the transistors. the end of the coil (the last turn coming off) is what is hooked to your primary battery positive.

Tom C

[min2oly]

1/ What is the correct gap distance from the coil to the incoming magnet?

I have it at 4mm+ though I have been advised that anywhere between 3.5-5mm is adequate
Throughout the past days I have changed the distance numerous times which has elasticated varying results as one would expect from Laws of Magnetic Forces. At 5+mm the reaction and RPM were far more diminished while at <3mm it was impeding the wheelspin speed. At my current setting I am receiving a adequate amount of wheelspin speed- 274 RPM.

2/ The tuning method and confirmation of sweet-tune resistance https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sr14...ature=youtu.be

I look forward to your advice, assistance on this so I may be able to move pass the current annoying basic part of this build and into the more critical and interesting parts of this build- the COP tests and Self-Run Cap Dump modes.

I dont have much time but once I have the basic principle done then the possibilities are limitless.

THIS out and put one on your trigger inline with the resistors. you might need to lower your resistance (for one wire a grain of wheat bulb from radio shack or wherever)

Tom recently posted HERE

[applied_casimir]

Applied,

simple to figure out.... the start of the coil, ( the first turn on the coil) needs to be at the bottom of the coil in reference to the bike wheel. the other end of the coil needs to be on the magnet face side. these wires are also the wires that go to the transistors. the end of the coil (the last turn coming off) is what is hooked to your primary battery positive.

Tom C

Thats what I thought. Its interesting you say 'these wires are also the wires that go to the transistors' because I would believe as opposed to my current setup having a more direct connection would help both connection and performance wise

[applied_casimir]

THIS out and put one on your trigger inline with the resistors. you might need to lower your resistance (for one wire a grain of wheat bulb from radio shack or wherever)

Tom recently posted HERE It’s a lot to take in, however, apply what you can to your build… Tom’s thread is the jumpstart you are looking for.
Kind Regards - Patrick

What's your name BTW?

http://aussiemagnets.com.au/product/...errite%29.html

[Tom C]

the simple SG does not have a Wein bridge oscillator in it, please upload a circuit drawing of what you are doing...

Tom C

[min2oly]

the simple SG does not have a Wein bridge oscillator in it, please upload a circuit drawing of what you are doing...

Tom C

Hi Tom,

"casimir" alluded that his wheel was dropping out of tune after one hour so I mention the grain of wheat bulb and reference the video as to how the bulb would help. Do not get lost in the "Wein bridge oscillator" :-)
KR- Patrick

[min2oly]

http://aussiemagnets.com.au/product/...errite%29.html

[applied_casimir]

the simple SG does not have a Wein bridge oscillator in it, please upload a circuit drawing of what you are doing...

Tom C

I wont be placing in the Bridge Oscillator only a grain of wheat light bulb so its still the same circuit as the simple SG

[applied_casimir]

I didn't take that from Bob's post at all, I think he was offering some tools and thoughts to help see things in a concrete way.

''Difficult to tell from the vid, either the perspective of the vid is way off or you have huge hands, or the wheel is small for so many magnets. Coil sounds about right except… what seems to be going on is the balance of the specifications i.e. the magnets vs wheel vs coil all seem to be leaving you with a very small window to find a sweet spot. This is just me talk’n - It seems to me your coil is fighting the magnets, I can hear the cogging.
Coil gap… if you have the ability, move the coil (or the wheel) laterally. That is if you are facing the wheel and see it as a line vs a circle, move it left or right so that it is off center this has the same effect of increasing coil gap and shortening the on time of the transistor. Think of 2 circles passing one another. this is what you have with the magnet and the coil core - Two Circles, we live in a 3D world (well from our perspective anyway).
Most of the points I bring up will help to improve as you say “My goal for this build is at best to simply charge that output battery in the video with as minimal losses to the input as possible.” Regarding Tom’s post, I said, “apply what you can to your build”
With one wire, be less concerned with how long it takes to charge the battery and more concerned with the ratio of input to charged battery output.

Firstly- 'I didn't take that from Bob's post at all' I didnt say you do its just he said similar so I must be doing things right

Before I answer your questions minloy I would like to note that since my last post I have inserted a 12V 100mA Grain of Wheat Light bulb as per the original pdf(it is in series with the end of the 100Ohm Resistor and the Base of the Transistor) and have noticed a reduction in current input. The first noticeable reduction is when the Pot is set at 0Ohm yielding not 600mA but a 400mA start. However while there is slight reductions the tuning spot I was focusing on is barely changed though more on that a little later. Following the advice I decided to move the coil more to the left of magnet centre so as to provide the attraction and repulsion effect to the magnet as it has already passed the centre. I have noticed a 20mA reduction. I have also attempted in the right direction.

In your opinion does it matter much? I would think not...

In regards to tuning spots I have found there is a subtle but present ‘in between tune spot’, that is a point where the dial characteristic occurs between the lower 100-120mA and the higher 220mA. This middle range is between 140mA-160mA. While I have not run a input vs output voltage day test(I leave the Motor run on the ascribed setting for 24 hours and check voltages at beginning, middle and end) I was not impressed by the lack of output voltage or the reduction in RPM.

Given others have had success with the SG here I believe there is a small but serious error in my setup. I believe it to be the coil and I would agree that it is ‘fighting’ with the Magnet-wheel.
In my early investigations prior to this, I noticed that some of the experimenters were using short and very thick coils with 800+ turns which provides a stronger magnetic field as per the Ampere coil Equation. My coil is longer with less turns and thus thinner however this does not explain why I am drawing more current?? I suspect the coil is at fault here but not sure exactly how.
Has anyone else experienced as I describe? And if so, how did you go about solving it?

I didn't take that from Bob's post at all, I think he was offering some tools and thoughts to help see things in a concrete way.

‘’Difficult to tell from the vid, either the perspective of the vid is way off or you have huge hands, or the wheel is small for so many magnets. Coil sounds about right except… what seems to be going on is the balance of the specifications i.e. the magnets vs wheel vs coil all seem to be leaving you with a very small window to find a sweet spot. This is just me talk’n - It seems to me your coil is fighting the magnets, I can hear the cogging.‘’

I think its the video. Yes I would say it has a small window but when you mention the balance of specifications- What is out of balance in your opinion?
Yes, the cogging is a problem and I have followed everything in the instructions...

‘’Coil gap… if you have the ability, move the coil (or the wheel) laterally. That is if you are facing the wheel and see it as a line vs a circle, move it left or right so that it is off center this has the same effect of increasing coil gap and shortening the on time of the transistor. Think of 2 circles passing one another. this is what you have with the magnet and the coil core - Two Circles, we live in a 3D world (well from our perspective anyway).’’

That is certainly easy to do. Which way is best to set it generally- left or right? Or does this depend on the machine? I would think it would not matter given symmetry of fields.

‘’With one wire, be less concerned with how long it takes to charge the battery and more concerned with the ratio of input to charged battery output.’’

On that note- how long does it generally take in your experience?

Overall, it seems I have reached an annoying insignificance(not even at COP testing or Self-Run where the real ‘meat’ of the machine is) with the setup so far. While 3 people have made their posts on this I would appreciate if a more thorough set of replies in assistance be provided that illustrate how to deal with this situation. I am not even sure its indicative of a tuning specific method which I am now more familiar with.