Neon lamp reactive to ambient light?

[itunesdan]

Last night (9p-12am) while re-homing my wheel in a new rig, I started noticing that my neon lamp stopped lighting when my shadow would pass over it... As soon as I moved away, it would start firing off again. Has anyone else ever seen this type of behavior?

Dan

[itunesdan]

I just noticed that one of the leads to the neon is connected to the wrong side of the IN4007... I brought the rig to work today to work on at lunch and will see if this makes a difference.

-Dan

[itunesdan]

So, during my break I moved the neon lead I had on the cathode side of the IN4007 to the anode side, changed the physical wiring from the run battery with a longer lead (from 5-6" to about 5') that has female spade terminal clips on it, and plugged the batteries in. Upon the realization that I mistakenly reversed the leads of the run battery to the barrier strip, I immediately disconnected the batteries, and connected the leads in the right polarity. Plugged everything back in, charge battery first. I gave my wheel a soft spin, and after about 15-20 seconds, i noticed that the wheel wasn't spinning and ramping up like it was last night, and the neon was not giving off any light also as it was doing last night. I brushed up against the transistor and quickly realized it was pretty stinking hot. Disconnect batteries, come back inside. Knowing that there is most definitely something wrong, I now find myself back on the forums here confused and a little irritated. Would the accidental reversal of polarity kill my transistor? I luckily have a single spare, but I am hoping that I can recover without putting a new one in. Would the longer leads to the run battery have any kind of effect on this? Any thoughts are welcome. Please see my other post for visual reference to said barrier strip. The red and black wires are run, brown and black charge. (+ - + -)

Thanks,
Dan

[John_Koorn]

Hi Dan, it sounds like you have blown the transistor. Before replacing it, I'd recommend you check all of the components individually for problems and correct as necessary.

John K.

[BobZilla]

Dan the neon light reactivity is known, but good of you to notice it and ask.

Here is a thread where it was discussed.

link:
http://www.energyscienceforum.com/showthread.php?t=2832

[Faraday88]

Dan the neon light reactivity is known, but good of you to notice it and ask.

Here is a thread where it was discussed.

link:
http://www.energyscienceforum.com/showthread.php?t=2832

Hey Bobzila,
Yes i had commented in that occasion was not remembering where though..! thanks for recalling it..
Another observation for all.. have you guys noticed in the 30 coiler video... we do'nt get to see that in our normal replications..
: The Neons lamps are seen GLOWING with the Secondary Batteries connected to the out!!! this could be a revelation to a SSG configuration ..can any one replicate this ???
Rgds,
Faraday88.

[BobZilla]

Hey Bobzila,
Yes i had commented in that occasion was not remembering where though..! thanks for recalling it..
Another observation for all.. have you guys noticed in the 30 coiler video... we do'nt get to see that in our normal replications..
: The Neons lamps are seen GLOWING with the Secondary Batteries connected to the out!!! this could be a revelation to a SSG configuration ..can any one replicate this ???
Rgds,
Faraday88.

Hi Faraday,
I have not reviewed the tape yet and this is just a reply based on what I remember but...

I believe on that model Mr. Bedini has regular incandescent bulbs in-line with his trigger. This acts as a self regulated variable resistor of sorts and although usually the bulb does not glow it can if you run hot enough.

I put some on my 8 coiler.

[John_Koorn]

Some history on the 30 coiler

I guess enough time has passed that I can share some of the history of the 30 coiler. I'm also pretty sure than John or Gary won't mind me sharing this, as long as I don't mention some names.

The 30 coiler that everyone has seen at the conferences was built by a few of us in preparation for one of the CDA conferences a few years back. Like everything for that conference, it was a real rush job to get it running in time and we all spent many hours into the night trying to get it ready. John did not have anything to do with building it as it wasn't his machine, he just watched on a chatted as we were working on it.
We did get it running in time for the conference but it was not tuned at all - it was running more like a motor than an energiser. Sure it charged the batteries, but with current more than radiant. The batteries would boil in a few minutes and they would off-gas and get hot, which is how you can tell you're pushing too much current.

After the conference the machine was sold to the Chinese guys that were at the conference. I was invited to go to China some months later to help them "fix" the machine and do some testing. They had bought some forklift batteries (I think they were 2 x 12V 960Ah batteries in series from memory) to use for testing. They were definitely looking for getting way over COP 1 out of it. I spent a few weeks over there improving the machine by replacing the bearings, re-locating the circuit boards, improving the bus bars, aligning the rotors and setting the coil gaps. Most of the time was spent load testing (which took a long time), fine tuning and giving demonstrations.

Testing was showing that COP was a lot less than 1 and the Chinese were wondering why. I'm not sure what they were promised but let's just say they didn't get what they thought they were getting. I kind of figured that the batteries probably needed another 20+ cycles to get conditioned but the Chinese were impatient, they wanted results now. They had no idea on how to charge batteries or even how a basic SG worked.
I called John for some help, who did give a lot of tips he wasn't really obliged to and being that he didn't build it was basically telling me information that he'd already shared with everyone and on the forums. John had never hidden anything about the SG.

The main issue was the rotors were too heavy and they had neo magnets in them. John suggested to replace them with machined spoked rotors with scalar north ceramic magnets - like his 10 coiler. These were made in China from Chinese alloy and ceramic magnets. For Chinese stuff, they were actually pretty good. Unfortunately they also used Chinese crazy glue to hold the magnets in and one of the rotors threw a magnet which took out a few coils in the process. At that point John also recommended replacing all of the coils with 130' #18 wire, so that was done as well. (Note that no matter what changes we did, the neons ALWAYS lit up on that machine. My guess is that the radiant was always too much for the batteries.)

So after being almost totally rebuilt, except for the frame, the machine did run a lot better and performed very well. Although, I was never totally happy with it because it was a pain to start up and the transistors would get hot and it always pushed too much current. I left the Chinese with instructions on how to do proper load testing and send me the results, but they never did it so I don't know how well the machine performed or what sort of COP it was getting.

I did enjoy working on it and will probably never get to work on an SG of that size again. I have no idea where the machine is now or who owns it.

John K.

[Faraday88]

Hi Faraday,
I have not reviewed the tape yet and this is just a reply based on what I remember but...

I believe on that model Mr. Bedini has regular incandescent bulbs in-line with his trigger. This acts as a self regulated variable resistor of sorts and although usually the bulb does not glow it can if you run hot enough.

I put some on my 8 coiler.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]5582[/ATTACH]

Hey Bob ,
Thanks for your response ...i guess you got me wrong... i'm talking about the NEON BULBS placed between the Collector and Emitter typically for protecting the transistor (in case the secondary battery is disconnected (from charging).
This holds some key to the SSG...I have been pondering on it for some time now, shall post once i'm there..
Rgds,
Faraday88.

[Faraday88]

I guess enough time has passed that I can share some of the history of the 30 coiler. I'm also pretty sure than John or Gary won't mind me sharing this, as long as I don't mention some names.

The 30 coiler that everyone has seen at the conferences was built by a few of us in preparation for one of the CDA conferences a few years back. Like everything for that conference, it was a real rush job to get it running in time and we all spent many hours into the night trying to get it ready. John did not have anything to do with building it as it wasn't his machine, he just watched on a chatted as we were working on it.
We did get it running in time for the conference but it was not tuned at all - it was running more like a motor than an energiser. Sure it charged the batteries, but with current more than radiant. The batteries would boil in a few minutes and they would off-gas and get hot, which is how you can tell you're pushing too much current.

After the conference the machine was sold to the Chinese guys that were at the conference. I was invited to go to China some months later to help them "fix" the machine and do some testing. They had bought some forklift batteries (I think they were 2 x 12V 960Ah batteries in series from memory) to use for testing. They were definitely looking for getting way over COP 1 out of it. I spent a few weeks over there improving the machine by replacing the bearings, re-locating the circuit boards, improving the bus bars, aligning the rotors and setting the coil gaps. Most of the time was spent load testing (which took a long time), fine tuning and giving demonstrations.

Testing was showing that COP was a lot less than 1 and the Chinese were wondering why. I'm not sure what they were promised but let's just say they didn't get what they thought they were getting. I kind of figured that the batteries probably needed another 20+ cycles to get conditioned but the Chinese were impatient, they wanted results now. They had no idea on how to charge batteries or even how a basic SG worked.
I called John for some help, who did give a lot of tips he wasn't really obliged to and being that he didn't build it was basically telling me information that he'd already shared with everyone and on the forums. John had never hidden anything about the SG.

The main issue was the rotors were too heavy and they had neo magnets in them. John suggested to replace them with machined spoked rotors with scalar north ceramic magnets - like his 10 coiler. These were made in China from Chinese alloy and ceramic magnets. For Chinese stuff, they were actually pretty good. Unfortunately they also used Chinese crazy glue to hold the magnets in and one of the rotors threw a magnet which took out a few coils in the process. At that point John also recommended replacing all of the coils with 130' #18 wire, so that was done as well. (Note that no matter what changes we did, the neons ALWAYS lit up on that machine. My guess is that the radiant was always too much for the batteries.)

So after being almost totally rebuilt, except for the frame, the machine did run a lot better and performed very well. Although, I was never totally happy with it because it was a pain to start up and the transistors would get hot and it always pushed too much current. I left the Chinese with instructions on how to do proper load testing and send me the results, but they never did it so I don't know how well the machine performed or what sort of COP it was getting.

I did enjoy working on it and will probably never get to work on an SG of that size again. I have no idea where the machine is now or who owns it.

John K.

Hi John K.
Thanks for that wonderful account on the Machine ! Personally i would still recommend people to replicate the NEON BULB GLOWING WITH SECONDARY BATTERY CONNECTED this is not a simple stuff to simulate..remember JB showed us a phenomenon of the NEON glowing at different locations of the battery (Golf cart) charger the Radiant floating all over it!!! in that DVD.BTW I would say a simple NEON BULB says a lot more about the Radiant just as an Oscilloscope would for different waveform.. Yes it also implicates that the Transistors would correspondingly be hotter to this ...you may then need to force cool it!!!

Rgds,
Faraday88

[BobZilla]

Hey guys,
A little confusion on my part,, sorry. Faraday I thought you were talking about the 10? coil machine on the EV video's. You know the one Mr. Bedini charged those huge cells he had in the back room with. Anyway I think on that machine he had the trigger bulb as I described and it did light up on the video, I have not watched in a long time so I could be mistaken. So I had thought you may have thought those were neons, big confusion on the whole thing but I understand now you guys are talking about a different machine and neons that lit up. I don't think I am familiar with said machine so I cannot really say what the4 cause of that would have been.

John K thanks for sharing that story, I am unfamiliar with the machine but these stories are really a treat for some of us who have spent years working on these machines.

[Faraday88]

Hey guys,
A little confusion on my part,, sorry. Faraday I thought you were talking about the 10? coil machine on the EV video's. You know the one Mr. Bedini charged those huge cells he had in the back room with. Anyway I think on that machine he had the trigger bulb as I described and it did light up on the video, I have not watched in a long time so I could be mistaken. So I had thought you may have thought those were neons, big confusion on the whole thing but I understand now you guys are talking about a different machine and neons that lit up. I don't think I am familiar with said machine so I cannot really say what the4 cause of that would have been.

John K thanks for sharing that story, I am unfamiliar with the machine but these stories are really a treat for some of us who have spent years working on these machines.

Hi Bob,
Attached is the schematic for your understanding..yes the light bulb is for tunning purpose as you rightly pointed out..let me know how you opine on this ... (sorry for some errors in the way shown in my schematic for the secondary battery polarity and ofcourse the diode is missing..!)
Rgds,
Faraday88.

[BobZilla]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]5583[/ATTACH]

Hi Bob,
Attached is the schematic for your understanding..yes the light bulb is for tunning purpose as you rightly pointed out..let me know how you opine on this ... (sorry for some errors in the way shown in my schematic for the secondary battery polarity and ofcourse the diode is missing..!)
Rgds,
Faraday88.

Of course all I can do is guess at something I never really saw ;-)

John K said it was pushing a ton of current. I would think that if it pushed more than the charge side was willing to receive (rate wise) then this could cause a back pressure and a rise in voltage at which point the neons would glow. The battery could still charge because in this condition it would not be how we normally think of the neon as a secondary relief path but rather both paths were engaged at the same time (the C to E junction had reached 90+v.) Also considering it had 30 coils as I understand it, their could have been quite a high inducted voltage contributing to the over all voltage level in the circuit.

I'm afraid we will never know the true answer but all I am saying is it must have met a condition to where their was a back presure, not large enough batteries, sulphated plates, whatever but the point being that current was not allowed to flow out at the same rate as in. Then you add the potential of the spike dancing on top of that and the voltage is free to rise and bleed of by the neon.

Not he same thing but imagine a situation such as this. You have a string of LED's in series that will not light unless they see 14.6v ,, say 6 2.4v led's. You place these across the positive and negative of a charge battery and of course they do not lite. You run a machine in mode one but it is undersized to the load. The battery rises (charging) to 13.8 but will not go any further. The LED's never lite. Now in frustration you switch the same setup over to generator mode and try again. This time the voltage quickly rises to 15v and the LED's lite up at the same time. It is because the battery had reached saturation of current and the led's began to take the extra pressure.

I think the same could be what happened, perhaps the back battery was to small to deal with the current passing to it so a back pressure developed and with the spike dancing around on top of that it got to the voltage of the neon 90+v.

[Faraday88]

Of course all I can do is guess at something I never really saw ;-)

John K said it was pushing a ton of current. I would think that if it pushed more than the charge side was willing to receive (rate wise) then this could cause a back pressure and a rise in voltage at which point the neons would glow. The battery could still charge because in this condition it would not be how we normally think of the neon as a secondary relief path but rather both paths were engaged at the same time (the C to E junction had reached 90+v.) Also considering it had 30 coils as I understand it, their could have been quite a high inducted voltage contributing to the over all voltage level in the circuit.

I'm afraid we will never know the true answer but all I am saying is it must have met a condition to where their was a back presure, not large enough batteries, sulphated plates, whatever but the point being that current was not allowed to flow out at the same rate as in. Then you add the potential of the spike dancing on top of that and the voltage is free to rise and bleed of by the neon.

Not he same thing but imagine a situation such as this. You have a string of LED's in series that will not light unless they see 14.6v ,, say 6 2.4v led's. You place these across the positive and negative of a charge battery and of course they do not lite. You run a machine in mode one but it is undersized to the load. The battery rises (charging) to 13.8 but will not go any further. The LED's never lite. Now in frustration you switch the same setup over to generator mode and try again. This time the voltage quickly rises to 15v and the LED's lite up at the same time. It is because the battery had reached saturation of current and the led's began to take the extra pressure.

I think the same could be what happened, perhaps the back battery was to small to deal with the current passing to it so a back pressure developed and with the spike dancing around on top of that it got to the voltage of the neon 90+v.

Hi Bob,
With all due respect and appreciation to your efforts in explaining the mechanism involved, let me put it this way.. when you run a SG (not SSG) and let it keep running charging the capacitor, you will observe that the Neon starts Glowing at Voltage > 90V as you already mentioned, but now we have a Capacitor and not a Battery across the out put... what condition makes the Battery turn into a Capacitor and when I say that it need not mean that the entire Battery bulk should behave like a Capacitor (like its electrolyte that would essentially take the place of Dielectric as in a Capacitor)....Yes one of its Plate say Positive Terminal would act like that of a Capacitor and when this is achieved the Radiant would back up the Charging of the Out put Battery very Efficiently while the Voltage gain increasing making the Neon to glow as well!...this is kind of a Series Resonant Circuit i must say.
As for the SSG circuit I think the Trigger coils have a major role here on this one.. JB used to tell repeatedly to the Group to understand the Trigger and the fact that
it was know to him and Ron cole only and was from his 1971 Lab notes..next came Peter... and then other close to him..
with the Advanced hand book out most should get close to this effect just my guess.. do comment please....
Rgds,
Faraday88.

[BobZilla]

Hi Bob,
With all due respect and appreciation to your efforts in explaining the mechanism involved, let me put it this way.. when you run a SG (not SSG) and let it keep running charging the capacitor, you will observe that the Neon starts Glowing at Voltage > 90V as you already mentioned, but now we have a Capacitor and not a Battery across the out put... what condition makes the Battery turn into a Capacitor and when I say that it need not mean that the entire Battery bulk should behave like a Capacitor (like its electrolyte that would essentially take the place of Dielectric as in a Capacitor)....Yes one of its Plate say Positive Terminal would act like that of a Capacitor and when this is achieved the Radiant would back up the Charging of the Out put Battery very Efficiently while the Voltage gain increasing making the Neon to glow as well!...this is kind of a Series Resonant Circuit i must say.
As for the SSG circuit I think the Trigger coils have a major role here on this one.. JB used to tell repeatedly to the Group to understand the Trigger and the fact that
it was know to him and Ron cole only and was from his 1971 Lab notes..next came Peter... and then other close to him..
with the Advanced hand book out most should get close to this effect just my guess.. do comment please....
Rgds,
Faraday88.

Faraday it always becomes difficult to have these technically detailed conversations on a forum so I am not going to keep trying to drill down. I offered a hypothetical suggestion to what might have been happening on a system I never saw running.

What I described can and will happen under the conditions I described. If you don't believe it then take a SMALL battery that you know is working fine (not sulphated) and connect it to a LARGE machine. Run as low as possible and the neons probably will not light. Now crank it up and I guarantee you will hit a point as previously described to where it can no longer handle the current. The current saturation stacks up and allows the spike to tickle the voltage up to make the neon glow. One last analogy would be imagine a bucket with a small hole in the bottom. If you pour water slowly into it the water will rise above the hole a little and start to leak out of the hole. If you suddenly dump a whole bucket of water into that bucket the water will keep coming out of the hole but also rise to the top and spill out, that would be the equivalent of the neon coming on, not exactly but sort of.

As far as the trigger goes, yes it does some interesting things having to do with resonance and induction however you do not need a traditional trigger to produce the high voltage. I have built many experimental machines both mechanical and solid state that intentionally do not use a trigger coil to study operation with that feedback removed.