Battery cycle times

[kennygee]

Another question as I am gearing up to make my first bicycle wheel model and go purchase my batteries: Is there some empirical information that I can access that will tell me the average time the Run battery runs versus the average time the Charge battery charges? This would of course be for identical batteries once they are both "conditioned" by the SSG and are running steady state.

[Tom C]

No there is nothing empirical except this: a properly tuned SG will give you 1 to 1 charging plus mechanical. you cannot run an SG charged battery on another SG per JB. so you need a decen standard charger for your primary and a way of load testing your charge battery. if you need more than one charge cycle on your primary battery then you need to make some changes. also if you are buying new batteries, cycle them at least 10 times on a standard charger to finish forming the plates. you need current to get the paste on the plates fully formed, and they are not shipped from the factory fully formed, it is expected to start a car or lawn mower or any other device and then sit on the charging curcuit and finish forming. I have seen it take up to 20 cycles before a battery reaches its rated capacity.

Tom

[kennygee]

No there is nothing empirical except this: a properly tuned SG will give you 1 to 1 charging plus mechanical. you cannot run an SG charged battery on another SG per JB. so you need a decen standard charger for your primary and a way of load testing your charge battery. if you need more than one charge cycle on your primary battery then you need to make some changes. also if you are buying new batteries, cycle them at least 10 times on a standard charger to finish forming the plates. you need current to get the paste on the plates fully formed, and they are not shipped from the factory fully formed, it is expected to start a car or lawn mower or any other device and then sit on the charging curcuit and finish forming. I have seen it take up to 20 cycles before a battery reaches its rated capacity.

Tom

So, I cannot cycle my charge battery to the run battery and vice versa? and I need to invest in a battery charger to perpetuate my system?

[Branch Gordon]

John,

It currently takes me 5 charges of my primary battery to fully charge my charge battery with the SG. I was under the impression that this would improve as the charge battery was conditioned. Are you saying that if my batteries have been formed correctly, that I should get 1:1 charging right off the bat if I have everything built and tuned correctly?

You have seen photos of my build, and I have built if exactly like the book...also made all the improvements you guys have suggested.

No there is nothing empirical except this: a properly tuned SG will give you 1 to 1 charging plus mechanical. you cannot run an SG charged battery on another SG per JB. so you need a decen standard charger for your primary and a way of load testing your charge battery. if you need more than one charge cycle on your primary battery then you need to make some changes. also if you are buying new batteries, cycle them at least 10 times on a standard charger to finish forming the plates. you need current to get the paste on the plates fully formed, and they are not shipped from the factory fully formed, it is expected to start a car or lawn mower or any other device and then sit on the charging curcuit and finish forming. I have seen it take up to 20 cycles before a battery reaches its rated capacity.

Tom

[Tom C]

So, I cannot cycle my charge battery to the run battery and vice versa? and I need to invest in a battery charger to perpetuate my system?

this is per John B you cannot cycle batteries back to front without a cap pulser or comparator on the charge side. yes you need a battery charger for the basic SG experimentation.

[Tom C]

I assume you are talking to me, if not John K can step in here. if you have a 5 amp hr primary and a 5 amp hr secondary it should not take you 25 amps to charge a 5 amp battery. that is correct. So I assume you have load tested both batteries and know there capacity, yes?

Tom C

John,

It currently takes me 5 charges of my primary battery to fully charge my charge battery with the SG. I was under the impression that this would improve as the charge battery was conditioned. Are you saying that if my batteries have been formed correctly, that I should get 1:1 charging right off the bat if I have everything built and tuned correctly?

You have seen photos of my build, and I have built if exactly like the book...also made all the improvements you guys have suggested.

[Branch Gordon]

Haha oops...yes I meant you Tom. Yes I have load tested both my batteries. They are 14AH. I am only discharging them down to 12.24V so that I don't exceed the minimum OCV recommended by the manfacturer, which is 12.44V.

My last test run, my charge input amps were 10.67, and my load output amp hours were 9.59. So I'm sitting at around .90 Battery COP with these mostly unconditioned batteries.

But the primary draw amps are what is running my primary sound so fast. It takes 580mA to run this machine, and it's putting out 200mA. The only way I could get 1:1 charging with unconditioned batteries is if my primary draw amps are lower than my charge input amps (as far as I know).

I assume you are talking to me, if not John K can step in here. if you have a 5 amp hr primary and a 5 amp hr secondary it should not take you 25 amps to charge a 5 amp battery. that is correct. So I assume you have load tested both batteries and know there capacity, yes?

Tom C

[Tom C]

are you using the cop calculator from the yahoo groups? your machine there on runs 21 to 30 was cop over 2....

Tom C

[Branch Gordon]

Yes I am using the yahoo group COP spreadsheet. I have from the beginning.

When I was on the Yahoo groups i was using the 3pm kit with neos. I dont use that anymore. I have my bike wheel. I know u answer a lot of posts so u may not recall any details on my current build. Its a bike wheel with ceramics, teslagenx coil and board, etc. Standard build.

are you using the cop calculator from the yahoo groups? your machine there on runs 21 to 30 was cop over 2....

Tom C

[Branch Gordon]

Also, you are talking battery COP. Yeah i was getting a BATTERY COP of 2 with that kit, but i wasnt getting 1:1 charging. My SYSTEM COP was like .67 or something...cant remember but it was never over 1. In order to be at 1:1 i need a system COP of 1.

are you using the cop calculator from the yahoo groups? your machine there on runs 21 to 30 was cop over 2....

Tom C

[Tom C]

I understand what you are saying, something is not right here what is your base resistance currently at? 470?
Tom C

[Tom C]

I will do a set of runs on my 4 tek and see what I come up with. I have some 7 AH werker batts that will work fine for this.

[Branch Gordon]

Yes they are 470 ohms.

I understand what you are saying, something is not right here what is your base resistance currently at? 470?
Tom C

[Branch Gordon]

Thx Tom for you help. Anxious to see your results with your board.

I will do a set of runs on my 4 tek and see what I come up with. I have some 7 AH werker batts that will work fine for this.

[kennygee]

this is per John B you cannot cycle batteries back to front without a cap pulser or comparator on the charge side. yes you need a battery charger for the basic SG experimentation.

Hi Tom,
No problem there. I am gathering supplies to make a cap pulser after my basic bike build. I will charge and discharge both batteries, taking measurements during each cycle. I suppose it is not even necessary to have the SG in the loop during this conditioning process? (although probably not as fun or informative). So my plan for this conditioning process would be to cycle each battery from the run mode to the external recharger at least 10 times, while taking load measurements along the way. Also during this conditioning process I understand according to the SG basic build that the collapsing field should not be allowed to discharge back into my run battery. Therefore a temporary way of channeling the radiant discharge (through a series of neon lamps, etc) is necessary during this process. - any thoughts or recommendations?