Beta matching for multi-coil/filer builds

[min2oly]

Hello to all,
My name is Patrick Apodaca, I live in Seattle, I started out experimenting on this adventure with my son Brandon when he just turned 10, and added my daughter when she turned 8. We're a few years into it now, and have gained some good experiences along the way. We are very excited to begin this new chapter...

The above picture is our most recent simple 4 filer SS SSG w/ 3 mjl's and the CPD mod (cap pot diode)
we mtached the transistors, base resistors, collecter diodes, BE diodes, as well as the coil winds (ie mH across each wire). We attempted to keep solder to a minimum and at least make sure the to items being solderd were in direct contact, so the amount of solder used did not create any additional resistance in one place.
This little build has no problem charging the battery in the picture you see above.

Here is part 2 of a video on how we went about matching the transistors including the schematic. We welcome any feedback, experiences, questions or thoughts on beta matching...
Transistor Beta Matching (part 2)

[Ren]

Hi P'n'S

Let me first say how cool it is that you have done this journey side by side with the next generation of Apodaca's. This is how knowledge is imparted to the future generations, a seed is planted that when it comes to bear fruit it will be a beautiful thing. Who knows, Brandon (or your daughter) may be the next Bedini of his/her era! They certainly have had an early start. Now you need to get them up into the hills, collecting rock sample, grinding them up to make semi conductors Seriously, hats off to you for teaching (and learning) what is not taught or spoken of in schools. A favorite quote of mine.

"It’s funny whats happening to us. Our lives have become digital - our friends, now virtual and everything you could ever want to know is just a click away. Experiencing the world through this endless second hand information isn’t enough - if we want authenticity – we have to initiate it. We’ll never know our full potential unless we push ourselves to find it. It’s this self-discovery that takes us to the wildest places on earth.” -Travis Rice

Your authentic journey has literally been shared with the future, and Im sure Brandon has even taught YOU a thing or two from time to time .


Anyway, I have been interested in Beta matching of transistors, well the matching of parts in general. I was actually going to start a thread on it. Could you possibly include the schematic in this thread for those of us who may not have access to youtube? written instructions are also easily stored and shared as opposed to video.

Keep up the good work champ.

Regards

[min2oly]

Spoken like a true statesmen, good words
yes, good idea to post the schematics here. I have an older Iphone that Brandon hacked and is on a T-mobile prepay plan $100/yr I seldom use it so I don't think about these things, I see from the posts there are several people who are well up to speed. here is the simple ckt:



I need to re-work the more complex one and add some instructions maybe???
If anyone has a curve tracer I'd be interested to see some closer analyses and find out if the simple ckt is enough for the most robust SSG charger. including the Bedini/Cole switch.

on that note... for the Bedini/Cole switch, are we suppose to match the same value from pnp as the npn? I find it extremely difficult to find a match that way.

In other words, given the same ckt above if the npn is giving me a value of .235mA, then I swap in the pnp (changing the + and -) should we be looking for the same .235mA?
Thanks,
Patrick

[Ren]

Spoken like a true statesmen, good words
yes, good idea to post the schematics here. I have an older Iphone that Brandon hacked and is on a T-mobile prepay plan $100/yr I seldom use it so I don't think about these things, I see from the posts there are several people who are well up to speed. here is the simple ckt:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]57[/ATTACH]

I need to re-work the more complex one and add some instructions maybe???
If anyone has a curve tracer I'd be interested to see some closer analyses and find out if the simple ckt is enough for the most robust SSG charger. including the Bedini/Cole switch.

on that note... for the Bedini/Cole switch, are we suppose to match the same value from pnp as the npn? I find it extremely difficult to find a match that way.

In other words, given the same ckt above if the npn is giving me a value of .235mA, then I swap in the pnp (changing the + and -) should we be looking for the same .235mA?
Thanks,
Patrick

Had to google "statesman" there, not a common term down under, accidentally read it as salesman the first time lol. I would normally rebuke any comment that likened me to a politician of any sort (I hate the slackers) but I can see the spirit it was said in so, cheers mate

Ok, so you answered my first q, what we are looking for in this simple circuit is transistors with the same milliamp measurements when applied to this circuit.

Why the variable 1M? Wouldnt fixed be better?

And is 4v essential? can it be 3, or 6?

Would be great to compile a "how to thread" with circuits and curve tracers etc.

Good work guys, sorry cant help you with the pnp q. Just out of interest, how many trannies did you go through before you got your matched 3?

Regards.

[min2oly]

This is basically placing the transistor into a smooth and stable SS SSG environment at 12 volts. Primary battery can be power supply with large cap for increased stability. lock in on various base resistor settings, record measurements, then move on to the next transistor. I found that increasing the charging battery side to 24 volts helps to increase the sensitivity of the spike for obvious reasons :-)

Patrick

[min2oly]

Had to google "statesman" there, not a common term down under, accidentally read it as salesman the first time lol. I would normally rebuke any comment that likened me to a politician of any sort (I hate the slackers) but I can see the spirit it was said in so, cheers mate

Ok, so you answered my first q, what we are looking for in this simple circuit is transistors with the same milliamp measurements when applied to this circuit.

Why the variable 1M? Wouldnt fixed be better?

And is 4v essential? can it be 3, or 6?

Would be great to compile a "how to thread" with circuits and curve tracers etc.

Good work guys, sorry cant help you with the pnp q. Just out of interest, how many trannies did you go through before you got your matched 3?

Regards.

Hi Ren,
yes, Statesmen in the complete good sense of the term :-)
The variable pot allows us (using an LED) to find a nice area on the base that allows us to find the optimal current, then leave the pot alone and swap out the transistors - this is for the simple ckt we use the fixed resistors for the more robust ckt.
the 4v is not essential, however works really well with the LED.
I agree, and hope to hear from others on the curve tracers ....

So fare it seems from what we have been logging that the simple ckt is a good method to eliminate the wild cards (high and low transistors) then we run the more robust ckt to get better numbers. I have to say we're really shooting from the hip on this and going with our gut instincts. Hope to hear from others with more knowledge on the subject.
Kind regards,
Patrick

[MaxCaviar]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]43[/ATTACH]

Hello to all,
My name is Patrick Apodaca, I live in Seattle, I started out experimenting on this adventure with my son Brandon when he just turned 10, and added my daughter when she turned 8. We're a few years into it now, and have gained some good experiences along the way. We are very excited to begin this new chapter...

The above picture is our most recent simple 4 filer SS SSG w/ 3 mjl's and the CPD mod (cap pot diode)
we mtached the transistors, base resistors, collecter diodes, BE diodes, as well as the coil winds (ie mH across each wire). We attempted to keep solder to a minimum and at least make sure the to items being solderd were in direct contact, so the amount of solder used did not create any additional resistance in one place.
This little build has no problem charging the battery in the picture you see above.

Here is part 2 of a video on how we went about matching the transistors including the schematic. We welcome any feedback, experiences, questions or thoughts on beta matching...
Transistor Beta Matching (part 2)

Hello Patrick, and thanks for your sharing on the net, youtube etc...

When you say :"This little build has no problem charging the battery in the picture you see above." , do you mean that you can have a 1 to 1 ratio charging with a 3.6 Ah primary battery and a 100 Ah sec battery?
if no, what is the best COP you ever achieved in your Bedini experiment?

[min2oly]

This is some of the best COP charging in this boring vid here:

small Battery charges Large Battery Bank - YouTube

More wire and transistors are needed for charging larger banks. I purchased a grid tie inverter that we use as the load on the bank after charging.
IMHO - The solid state chargers seem to be the least expensive and most simple to build. it took us all of about 4 hours to wind, match components solder it up and put it to use.

regards,
Patrick

[John_Koorn]

Thanks Patrick for posting the transistor matching circuit. It's pretty close to one that JB shared with us, the only difference being that he suggested a 25K pot on the base resistor and a 27k resistor between Vcc and the collector. He also had a mA meter between the emitter and ground and ran it off a 9v battery. And no LED, but that is a nice touch (would have to have a resistor in series with the LED @ 9v).

I tried using the hFE function on my DMM on the weekend to match up 4 transistors for a 5-fialr coil I'm using. Turned out pretty easy - the gain on the meter varied from 28 to 33 from 7 different transistors. Out of the 7, 4 of them had a gain of 30. (The datasheet says the MJL21194 has a minimum gain of 25) Don't forget if you do this it's handy to write the gain on the transistor in pencil - then if you blow one you know what to replace it with

The hardest part was matching the voltage drop of the diodes. Out of about 50 1N5408's on an ammo roll, the voltage drop varied between 530 and 580. I picked 4 where the voltage drop was + or - 1. The resistors were a lot easier - all were already within 0.1 ohms of each other (100 ohm resistors)


John K.

[alfinip2000]

John,
I've read your post back when Monopole2 group at yahoo, you said how to tune correctly 10 coiler to get 1 to 4 charging.. did you beta match first before assembly the kit?TIA

[Ren]

Thanks Patrick for posting the transistor matching circuit. It's pretty close to one that JB shared with us, the only difference being that he suggested a 25K pot on the base resistor and a 27k resistor between Vcc and the collector. He also had a mA meter between the emitter and ground and ran it off a 9v battery. And no LED, but that is a nice touch (would have to have a resistor in series with the LED @ 9v).

I tried using the hFE function on my DMM on the weekend to match up 4 transistors for a 5-fialr coil I'm using. Turned out pretty easy - the gain on the meter varied from 28 to 33 from 7 different transistors. Out of the 7, 4 of them had a gain of 30. (The datasheet says the MJL21194 has a minimum gain of 25) Don't forget if you do this it's handy to write the gain on the transistor in pencil - then if you blow one you know what to replace it with

The hardest part was matching the voltage drop of the diodes. Out of about 50 1N5408's on an ammo roll, the voltage drop varied between 530 and 580. I picked 4 where the voltage drop was + or - 1. The resistors were a lot easier - all were already within 0.1 ohms of each other (100 ohm resistors)


John K.

Love that post John, thats what I was looking for. Got that schematic or anyone feel like tweaking the values on P'n'S schematic to reflect what John shared?

Id do it myself but Im a graphic designer, with only one functioning hand at the moment, and everyone knows we need both to do any work on the computer lol.

Interesting find on the diodes, I wonder if the UF variety are tighter tolerances.

Cheers for the info.

[John_Koorn]

Transistor Beta Tester

Here is the schematic of the transistor beta tester that John Bedini shared with us.


John_K.

[MaxCaviar]

This is some of the best COP charging in this boring vid here:

small Battery charges Large Battery Bank - YouTube

More wire and transistors are needed for charging larger banks. I purchased a grid tie inverter that we use as the load on the bank after charging.
IMHO - The solid state chargers seem to be the least expensive and most simple to build. it took us all of about 4 hours to wind, match components solder it up and put it to use.

regards,
Patrick

Thanks Patrick, love this video, it's a very impressive one !!

Regards,

Sam

[Howard Wetsman]

Ss ssg

[ATTACH=CONFIG]43[/ATTACH]

Hello to all,
My name is Patrick Apodaca, I live in Seattle, I started out experimenting on this adventure with my son Brandon when he just turned 10, and added my daughter when she turned 8. We're a few years into it now, and have gained some good experiences along the way. We are very excited to begin this new chapter...

The above picture is our most recent simple 4 filer SS SSG w/ 3 mjl's and the CPD mod (cap pot diode)
we mtached the transistors, base resistors, collecter diodes, BE diodes, as well as the coil winds (ie mH across each wire). We attempted to keep solder to a minimum and at least make sure the to items being solderd were in direct contact, so the amount of solder used did not create any additional resistance in one place.
This little build has no problem charging the battery in the picture you see above.

Here is part 2 of a video on how we went about matching the transistors including the schematic. We welcome any feedback, experiences, questions or thoughts on beta matching...
Transistor Beta Matching (part 2)

Patrick,
When you look at the wave form with your scope on the SS SSG, do you see the same h wave or something else. I tried a quick replication of your circuit (very well explained by the way) with an old #23 bifilar I bought from R charge. Got it to run but here is the wave form. Not sure if this is what I should be seeing. Any thoughts?
thanks,
howard

[Ren]

I like the ring down