Plasma Ignition | Plasma Jet Ignition

[ThankyouBedini]

Thank you very much!

[serendipitor]

Generator test circuits

Here are some details of what I have done so far with my Yamaha 5kW generator testing. No need to be impressed, it is rough and ready, just for R and D (repair and destroy). Below is the Hall effect ignition controller, which accomplishes the waste spark elimination and one level of timing control. This works well so far:


Here is the modified carb, with hoses for air, propane, HHO, and water vapor:


Then the schematic I am using to generate the plasma spark. It uses a standard old automotive spark coil, an isolated variable 200VDC power supply, and an opto-coupled input from the pulse generator hooked to the ignition pickup. I am using an NGK BP4ES plug, which has no resistor, and have bent the gap well open. It makes a nice thick spark. I have a scope on the other side of the opto-coupler, so as to keep out that nasty EMP as much as possible. I can add another delay to the ignition pickup circuit to control ignition timing to a greater degree.:


I can generate about 1 lpm of HHO using a standard brute force electrolyzer. I have two cold mist units, one a simple puck that draws about 30W, the other the nebulizer I posted about earlier. As for that particular unit, one should know that these (many similar ones out there) have a blower fan internally, so that they will also be adding air to the output. That may not be what is wanted. My simple mist generator is sealed inside a glass jar and lets no air in, just vapor out.

Playing with all this, I can say that I have *not* been able to get any sign of ignition using just that small amount of HHO, with or without the vapor. I tried ignition timing from TDC plus or minus 20 degrees. Nothing. So it may be too small an amount of HHO.

I can get things running on propane, and lean out the mix while adding HHO and vapor, but I have no real measurements on that yet. Clearly the combustion is clean, as that characteristic propane generator smell is absent. But there has to be some hydrocarbons present to get the engine to run. The ignition timing ends up being about the same as stock.

I want to try some of the other types of spark plugs, which are made for this sort of pulse. Also, I am looking at ways to prolong the plasma spark. My first idea will be to add some small inductance in series between the HV diode and the discharge capacitor. These ideas were put forth earlier in this thread but nothing more was heard on that subject.

Lots of work for not much result yet, but I wanted to make a data point in response to the info in Patrick Kelly's chapter 10 PDF. The generator conversion there was using modified timing, no plasma spark, water mist, and 5 lpm of HHO. Not being able to find any sign of ignition with my setup, sans propane, makes me wonder about that. Still testing....

[ThankyouBedini]

Hi!

Is there a way to make an electronic circuit to eliminate waste spark for a one cylinder engine?
Can this be bought or do I have to make it?

Thank you!

[hgul]

Hi Aaron
I was purchased your ignitin secretsbook.
I use a capacitor 102 30 kv like in your book- with a spark plug. it works well. but when we plug in motor car -for 4 spark plug I added,connected with a capacitor like in your book-, the car isnt working. where am I wrong . can you help me ?
Thanks
Hikmet Gulec

[serendipitor]

Hi!

Is there a way to make an electronic circuit to eliminate waste spark for a one cylinder engine?
Can this be bought or do I have to make it?

Not something that can be purchased, so it is home made only. Probably not a good place to start if you are new to electronics, unless you like challenges. Look at my previous posts, and Patrick Kelly's Chapter 10 pdf file to see more of what is needed, and suitable circuits.

That said, this is only really needed if you are going to experiment with HHO only, because the flame speed is quite high, and the ignition timing needs to be changed quite a bit to accomodate that in a normal engine. From what I read, that means somewhere after TDC. That causes the waste spark to occur during the intake cycle, and that leads to backfiring.

As soon as you mix in other gases, like water vapor, or in the case of just using the plasma spark for getting better burn from hydrocarbons, waste spark elimination is not needed as the flame speed of combustion slows down to near that of just normal hydrocarbons, and my guess is timing will not require much change, which is somewhere before TDC. That means that the waste spark occurs during the exhaust cycle without much effect.

[Aaron Murakami]

Not something that can be purchased, so it is home made only. Probably not a good place to start if you are new to electronics, unless you like challenges. Look at my previous posts, and Patrick Kelly's Chapter 10 pdf file to see more of what is needed, and suitable circuits.

That said, this is only really needed if you are going to experiment with HHO only, because the flame speed is quite high, and the ignition timing needs to be changed quite a bit to accomodate that in a normal engine. From what I read, that means somewhere after TDC. That causes the waste spark to occur during the intake cycle, and that leads to backfiring.

As soon as you mix in other gases, like water vapor, or in the case of just using the plasma spark for getting better burn from hydrocarbons, waste spark elimination is not needed as the flame speed of combustion slows down to near that of just normal hydrocarbons, and my guess is timing will not require much change, which is somewhere before TDC. That means that the waste spark occurs during the exhaust cycle without much effect.

Ditto to this...

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@All,

Just some thoughts on timing and different fuels...

Pure hho isn't a suitable fuel for an internal combustion engine - even if we could produce 100% from the energy the engine makes.

The plasma ignition actually does speed up the combustion of the fuel in a gas engine so we do have a need to delay ignition towards TDC but none of the govt or other tests have ever shown that it was necessary to go past TDC so the wasted spark elimination isn't needed.

If we run an engine on E85-E100 Ethanol, it is such a high octane that we have to advance ignition to fire sooner with normal ignition systems but with plasma, since it does speed up combustion anyway, it's probably a good match by just leaving the stock timing with Ethanol + plasma. Just a side note about something I'm looking at and I did find references that the plasma ignition was able to cold start E85 in sub freezing temperatures! That is a powerful testimony to the power of the plasma.

In all circumstances of looking at timing considerations for all kinds of fuel and even 100% water fuel claims, virtually every one that we have the best documentation, witnesses and a few successful replications where the HHO is modified to burn slower, all timing is before TDC.

The only 100% HHO fueled engines that I know of are by filling up a reservoir of HHO, which is extremely dangerous and running small engines until it runs out since the generator connected can never make enough to keep up withe demand. This is like lighting off an M80 on every combustion cycle and no common ICE is built for that kind of abuse.

A few people have gotten small engines to run on 100 water - just plain water being squirted into the intake but the size of the plasma is so big that it will blast away all kinds of metal that it comes in contact with. Remember that much of the plasma research at least in the forums came from trying to replicate S1R9A9M9 ??'s water fuel claims, which the circuit after I analyzed it turned out to be nothing more than rectifying an inverter's output to go in parallel with a plug. It worked and I actually don't doubt he was running his car on water, but how much metal was exploded from his valves, cylinder walls, cylinders, etc...? I don't know but it isn't a practical solution. Even in these circumstances, if true and I don't doubt it, that the timing is not past TDC.

Revizal I believe was the first after him to show a small bike engine running for short periods on 100% tap water and a beefed up plasma with a lot of capacitance. Yes, it works but again, blasting away the metal it comes in contact with. And that was with the stock magneto on the engine with stock timing. Perhaps with some timing modifications he could have did better, but I have yet to see anything like this with the timing past TDC.

I used to believe in the 100% HHO business quite a while back but over time it is more than clear to me that 100% HHO is not only unnecessary but it has nothing to do with what all the claimed success stories were doing. Just look at all the Meyer's references, he clearly spelled out he was making synthetic fuel with some electrolyzed water gas and nitrogen to slow down the burn. So the king of water fuel - assuming Meyer had what is claimed - even spells out everything but 100% HHO, which the whole world seems to be chasing because they don't want to comprehend or admit what Meyer clearly did spell out in all his work.

Virtually every bit of evidence with all success stories points to NON 100% HHO type fuels and 100% have their timing before TDC.

I don't know where the timing is on 100% hydrogen powered cars, maybe after TDC, but they're obviously not making fuel on demand but are using stored hydrogen and that is definitely a lot different than what we all seem to be doing.

So the bottom line for me is that eliminating the wasted spark for the purposes of running an engine on 100% HHO is a complete waste of time and there is a 100% failure rate in anyone showing they're generating 100% HHO to completely run an engine on and the engine is producing all that HHO on demand - plenty of claims, but no public demonstrations and 100% failure in the open forums for anyone to duplicate these claims.

[Aaron Murakami]

Hi Aaron
I was purchased your ignitin secretsbook.
I use a capacitor 102 30 kv like in your book- with a spark plug. it works well. but when we plug in motor car -for 4 spark plug I added,connected with a capacitor like in your book-, the car isnt working. where am I wrong . can you help me ?
Thanks
Hikmet Gulec

Hi Hikmet,

Sounds like you're doing the peaking cap method?

That capacitor is probably way too high in capacitance. Peaking caps for auto use are way smaller than that - that was just a demo and was never suggested for people to use peaking caps, but just to show the concept.

You can get it to work, but you have to try smaller capacitance caps. You might have to reduce the voltage as well closer to your ignition coil voltage - especially if your coil is stock and is only putting out like 15kv for example.

[hgul]

Sounds like you're doing the peaking cap method? yes

That capacitor is probably way too high in capacitance. 102 ,30kv

Peaking caps for auto use are way smaller than that - that was just a demo and was never suggested for people to use peaking caps, but just to show the concept.

You can get it to work, but you have to try smaller capacitance caps. You might have to reduce the voltage as well closer to your ignition coil voltage - especially if your coil is stock and is only putting out like 15kv for example.


ok I will try 102 and 15 kv capacitor. after that ı will share my experiment

thanks so much Aaron for your answers

[serendipitor]

So the bottom line for me is that eliminating the wasted spark for the purposes of running an engine on 100% HHO is a complete waste of time and there is a 100% failure rate....

Right on Aaron. It's good to put that whole idea to rest for now. After looking at the data and pictures of the modified generator by the mysterious "Selwyn", given in Patrick Kelly's Chapter 10 PDF, one comes away with the idea that there were some careful efforts made. The only claim was that the generator ran "fine" with 5 lpm and water mist, and with mechanically modified timing. The mist would reduce the flame speed. They were supposedly using some HHO generator that was well beyond the Faraday rate, so there might be a possibility there, but as you say, nothing demonstrable. Perhaps understandable after Meyer's story.

I would say that, for running a typical single cylinder engine on alternate fuels, some timing adjustment is probably worthwhile for experimenting. It turns out that what I did with the gears is about as easy a way as any other, and at least reducing the spark frequency by half does decrease the wear on the plug. But the range of interest does look to be around 5 to 15 degrees before TDC. So maybe a bit of a waste of time, but not a complete waste.

My application for this technology is to use the flammable gases from a pyrolysis oven to run the generator, and for the emissions to be very clean and odor free. Some of the pyrolysis gases can be objectionable, given various input materials, so I am looking at all the options. As a typical pyrolysis cycle begins, one generally has too much water vapor to ignite by any conventional means. I am thus also looking to extend the combustion of wet gases as far as possible, with the minimum of added hydrocarbons (like propane) to get the engine running, until the more energy rich products are eventually produced. That is why I wanted to look at the HHO method, but it is not essential to the project. Until some of the more advanced electrolyzers are proven, I will content myself with the fact that some added fuel will be needed to get the process started.

If need be, I will also look into using the plasma technique to simply ignite that initial water vapor in a flame tube, similar to your video, so as to completely eliminate any odors or pathogens that might be present.

The end result of all this will be biochar, and if the process could be made energy neutral, that would be best of course. But clean is the priority.

[Aaron Murakami]

Right on Aaron. It's good to put that whole idea to rest for now. After looking at the data and pictures of the modified generator by the mysterious "Selwyn", given in Patrick Kelly's Chapter 10 PDF, one comes away with the idea that there were some careful efforts made. The only claim was that the generator ran "fine" with 5 lpm and water mist, and with mechanically modified timing. the mist would reduce the flame speed. They were supposedly using some HHO generator that was well beyond the Faraday rate, so there might be a possibility there, but as you say, nothing demonstrable. Perhaps understandable after Meyer's story.

I would say that, for running a typical single cylinder engine on alternate fuels, some timing adjustment is probably worthwhile for experimenting. It turns out that what I did with the gears is about as easy a way as any other, and at least reducing the spark frequency by half does decrease the wear on the plug. But the range of interest does look to be around 5 to 15 degrees before TDC. So maybe a bit of a waste of time, but not a complete waste.

My application for this technology is to use the flammable gases from a pyrolysis oven to run the generator, and for the emissions to be very clean and odor free. Some of the pyrolysis gases can be objectionable, given various input materials, so I am looking at all the options. As a typical pyrolysis cycle begins, one generally has too much water vapor to ignite by any conventional means. I am thus also looking to extend the posibility of combustion of wet gases as far as possible, with the minimum of added hydrocarbons (like propane) to get the engine running, until the more energy rich products are produced. That is why I wanted to look at the HHO method, but it is not essential to the project. Until some of the more advanced electrolysers are proven, I will content myself with the fact that some added fuel will be needed to get the process started.

If need be, I will also look into using the plasma technique to simply ignite that initial water vapor in a flame tube, similar to your video, so as to completely eliminate any odors or pathogens that might be present.

The end result of all this will be biochar, and if the process could be made energy neutral, that would be best of course. But clean is the priority.

I've achieved over Faraday results in some electrolyzer tests, but even at 2, 3 or 400% Faraday, still not enough to have it self run. I've seen really high crazy claims, but to date, its only been unverifiable claims.

For plug ware reduction by eliminating the waste spark, when it sparks, the exhaust port is open and there is no pressurized gases at the gap so the dielectric resistance value at the gap is very low and only requires a few thousand volts to fire so the corresponding current will be quite low and probably doesn't contribute to much plug wear.

The simplest way for anyone to delay ignition closer to TDC, not much, but free and easy is to have the biggest gap possible at the plug since it takes a bit more time to jump the gap if the gap is bigger. If we use surface gap plugs, then we have about as big of a gap as we can get.

Sounds like a great project you have - biochar needs to be a household word.

[ThankyouBedini]

To sum this up.

We do not need to make a waste spark system, because we never need to adjust ignition timing to after TDC.
We need Plasma Ignition, but not with the booster cap, because with booster caps, the discharge it to much for the engine to last.
About 50, 6a10 diodes from the low voltage positive to the top of the plug. (What about diodes from HV+ to top of the plug to stop all reverse positive current?)
Then we need some HHO, but not so much!
The HHO is then injected into the bottom of the exhaust gas bubbeler filled with water to make Syngas. HHO and nitrogen bubbles up and will mix with some water vapor and air (Syngas), before it is delivered under slight vacuum into the engine.
Is this what we all should be aiming at?

Thank you very much.

[Aaron Murakami]

To sum this up.

We do not need to make a waste spark system, because we never need to adjust ignition timing to after TDC.
We need Plasma Ignition, but not with the booster cap, because with booster caps, the discharge it to much for the engine to last.
About 50, 6a10 diodes from the low voltage positive to the top of the plug. (What about diodes from HV+ to top of the plug to stop all reverse positive current?)
Then we need some HHO, but not so much!
The HHO is then injected into the bottom of the exhaust gas bubbeler filled with water to make Syngas. HHO and nitrogen bubbles up and will mix with some water vapor and air (Syngas), before it is delivered under slight vacuum into the engine.
Is this what we all should be aiming at?

Thank you very much.

With booster caps, yes, that is to err on the side of caution. However, it would be nice to see some test of prolonged use of plasma at different strengths and have the engine disassembled to see what the actual damage is. That would be awesome - haven't seen that yet. I just saw the bench test damage of different electrodes and coupled with the fact that the plasma grows with air and moisture, that was all I needed to know to realize that plasma on the smaller side is probably best for most applications.

I have put diodes from the HV output of the coil to keep anything from going backwards into it but I've never seen that it has made any difference.

HHO + ambient air + recycled exhaust + ionizing this air mixture to strip electrons out of it is what Meyer was doing to create the syngas.

In Meyer's earliest work showing this concept, way before he did anything with resonant wfc circuits or hv ionization, etc... he didn't discuss ionizing the air but we know from some tests that we did as well as others who mixed plain air with the HHO did indeed change the burn properties a bit - enough to see that there is a difference. In the early "airdation" patents by Meyer's he says the exhaust cooler doubled as a "spark arrestor" and that is what I mentioned is my speculation that he was using a catalyst in there to snuff out a spark - nickel/iron/etc. maybe like nickel wool... when it heats up really hot and nitrogen hits it, the nitrogen is instantly ionized.

Yes, Meyer shows that the HHO is pulled out of the wfc in a venturi - he calls it his "mixing chamber" but it is obvious by the shape that it is a venturi. When the hho (really a mix of about a dozen different atoms and molecules) is pulled out under a vacuum there, it helps to keep them separated prolonging their existence as reactive atoms and molecules. When they are kept separated like that, they bind with the ionized nitrogen easier since they're already broken apart.

Here is what might be obvious but I didn't use these words in the book or presentation - ionized nitrogen splits the hydrogen and oxygen in moisture for you. You already have it electrolyzed coming out of the cell but any moisture that is in the presence of ionized nitrogen (positively charged nitrogen atoms) will be ripped apart. Ionized nitrogen IS an "electron extraction circuit" (eec).

[serendipitor]

To sum this up....
About 50, 6a10 diodes from the low voltage positive to the top of the plug.

Way too many diodes. 10kV total rating is plenty, IMHO. Try 15 in series if you want lots of safety margin.

As was pointed out early in this thread, seeing the spark gap as a switch makes this all quite easy to grasp. The spark coil is only putting out enough voltage to jump the gap, which is probably less than 10kV given even a wide open spark plug. As soon as the gap is jumped, i.e. the switch is closed, then the voltage across it goes down, and the cap dumps its charge into that low resistance. So the diode voltage rating is defined by the spark gap voltage. The size of the resulting plasma spark is determined by the size of the capacitor and the peak current through the diodes. Most diodes have a continuous rating, and an avalanche rating which is much higher. The avalanche rating is what this circuit will be stressing as the average current is low.

As Aaron mentions, I think it is easy to go overkill on the plasma spark, so no need for extremity.

[Beebrox]

Has anybody actually improved MPG, power or lowered emissions on his car using plasma ignition or peak cap ignition?

I've got diodes, caps and plugs to set my first experiments... It seems like totally doable...

[Aaron Murakami]

Has anybody actually improved MPG, power or lowered emissions on his car using plasma ignition or peak cap ignition?

I've got diodes, caps and plugs to set my first experiments... It seems like totally doable...

Gmeast at Energetic Forum went from something like 25 to 43 MPG in his VW 1300cc bug and it happened to be a 43% increase in mileage. He used the plasma, leaned his jets out and had water dripping on his exhaust manifold and he ducted the flash steam into his intake.