New Two Coil Monopole

[Forrest]

Hi BobZilla,

I have almost the very same dual coil setup SG machine you are working with. It has run several hundred hours now. One of my biggest hurdles was the tuning to one spike. I fixed mine by using a very large amperage resistor "variable type" and also had a 3" dia head lamp in line as well. Please keep in mind I am using much larger ceramic magnets. This was a big experiment outside of the norm!

http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/...ps807e2a13.jpg

http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/...ps17568428.jpg

http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/...ps444afdf5.jpg

http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/...ps2e863e59.jpg

The point being is that the trigger circuit is a A/C alternator. The bigger the magnets the more power that is produced. The more windings the higher the voltage. The higher the RPM the higher the power. So as you can see there are a lot of voltage and power variables that effect the tuning of the transistors. Most of this is RPM sensitive. As your RPM goes of the scale so does the power and voltage and now you see the multiple spikes as the voltage rises. As this voltage rises you need to limit the A/C trigger power down to one spike. I cannot tell you what you need to do because you are outside the box of the regular SG......but RPM may be the problem as I saw in your video. I know everyone here loves the high RPM's but you need to keep in mind is that the triggering is effected by the speed or RPM. At a low RPM the SG will fire just fine but as the speed increases the firing changes because the voltage wave amplitude changes as well......makes a longer and longer duration for the transistor to fire on.

Here is a quick way to prove my point. Put and automotive taillight bulb on the empty trigger cuircuit and see what happens as the machine ramps up in speed. This will show you the problem. The bulb will gain brightness as the RPM increases. You need to limit this power. In my pictures you will see a very large resistor in my hand that was burned in two by all this power. I contained it by the use of a head lamp and a very large variable resistor in series with each other to limit this power to the transistors. It works well! A lot of experimenting to find the answer.

This is why JB uses a fan on his SG demonstration model to limit the speed of the wheel. He knows that the RPM is his enemy in regards to the trigger circuit power and effects the transistor firing. The fan just happens to be a very good governor. I know it looks cool but the fan is a very important part of this issue. JB is an excellent physicist and has told us everthing we need to know on how to build a SG machine......but .......he has not told us everything he knows about it. That is for us to figure out!

Hope this helps you out.

Bud

[Forrest]

[Brodie Gwilliam]

maybe a separate trigger coil with smaller wire and something like half length will help.... it will be a lot easier than trying to tune a trigger length thats already wound in with other wires... you will also be able to move it further away from wheel if you need

[Forrest]

You are correct.......there is more than one way to control the trigger. I know it sounds dumb but at the time it was my way of figuring out the problem. So much was learned from this one little tad bit of information.

[Brodie Gwilliam]

i probably wouldve done same thing... how big was that resistor you blew? 5w???? anyway to harness that energy maybe? if its over 12v maybe a diode coming off trigger before resistors and going to primary positive? maybe that will make it run funny though....

[BobZilla]

Hi Bud,
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experience. I think there is far too little actual collaboration between builders on this site. I am assuming that last video I had posted about the 1 v 2 spikes is what you are referencing this info to. Back when I made that there was a lot of talk about 1 spike, everyone talked and still do as if one spike is the holy grail. It does have it's uses in my opinion, but the main point I was trying to make is if you use two spikes you are popping dipoles at twice the rate aka the frequency that can be observed. The voltage is a little less than with one spike but not half as much less so the basic point was if you fire off a given number of spikes say 1 at 9v in a time frame or two at 7 v in same time frame you are really producing more with two than 1. Now I am only using the AC measurement as something to observe because I cannot see the spikes but it is an indicator of measured power. Doubled frequency at slightly less voltage than just 1 spike so the frequency of the two spikes or even three can more than make up for the little bit of voltage gained in one spike. Anyway I think I am having a hard time explaining very clearly how I think about this but hopefully someone gets my meaning.

Your machine looks great! It looks like it could be a distant cousin to mine ;-)

I am curious how you run yours and what kind of specs.

For example I usually run mine at two spikes for a draw of about 2 amps. This gives roughly 270RPM (talking mode one)

If I switch to one spike It will be about 2 and a half to three amp draw and 410RPM.

Generally speaking it is a 2 amp machine. I can run smoothly down to an amp and keep in 2 spikes, if I go any lower I can still run but it will go into three spikes. I think I can run down to around 400ma but as I say really it is a 2 amp machine to run best. I mostly charge large 100AH batteries with it one at a time.

If I want to charge more than 100AH say like two of them in parallel than I run it in one spike mode and pull 3 - 4 amps.

*EDIT*
You know actually those numbers I gave are not completely right. They are a ball park figure but I just adjusted my gap the other day and normal runs are closer to about 1 and a half amp or so. Coil gap can play a big role in it all as most of us are already aware.

I may post some fresh video of the machine soon. I just posted a generator run but mode one runs much differently.

Anyway I am just curious how you run yours?

[Faraday88]

Hi Bobzila,

This is really a great contribution from you for the group...
Best Regards,
Faraday88.

[erfinder]

Hi BobZilla,

I have almost the very same dual coil setup SG machine you are working with. It has run several hundred hours now. One of my biggest hurdles was the tuning to one spike. I fixed mine by using a very large amperage resistor "variable type" and also had a 3" dia head lamp in line as well. Please keep in mind I am using much larger ceramic magnets. This was a big experiment outside of the norm!

http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/...ps807e2a13.jpg

http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/...ps17568428.jpg

http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/...ps444afdf5.jpg

http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/...ps2e863e59.jpg

The point being is that the trigger circuit is a A/C alternator. The bigger the magnets the more power that is produced. The more windings the higher the voltage. The higher the RPM the higher the power. So as you can see there are a lot of voltage and power variables that effect the tuning of the transistors. Most of this is RPM sensitive. As your RPM goes of the scale so does the power and voltage and now you see the multiple spikes as the voltage rises. As this voltage rises you need to limit the A/C trigger power down to one spike. I cannot tell you what you need to do because you are outside the box of the regular SG......but RPM may be the problem as I saw in your video. I know everyone here loves the high RPM's but you need to keep in mind is that the triggering is effected by the speed or RPM. At a low RPM the SG will fire just fine but as the speed increases the firing changes because the voltage wave amplitude changes as well......makes a longer and longer duration for the transistor to fire on.

Here is a quick way to prove my point. Put and automotive taillight bulb on the empty trigger cuircuit and see what happens as the machine ramps up in speed. This will show you the problem. The bulb will gain brightness as the RPM increases. You need to limit this power. In my pictures you will see a very large resistor in my hand that was burned in two by all this power. I contained it by the use of a head lamp and a very large variable resistor in series with each other to limit this power to the transistors. It works well! A lot of experimenting to find the answer.

This is why JB uses a fan on his SG demonstration model to limit the speed of the wheel. He knows that the RPM is his enemy in regards to the trigger circuit power and effects the transistor firing. The fan just happens to be a very good governor. I know it looks cool but the fan is a very important part of this issue. JB is an excellent physicist and has told us everthing we need to know on how to build a SG machine......but .......he has not told us everything he knows about it. That is for us to figure out!

Hope this helps you out.

Bud

In light of the fact that this device is a 1:1 transformer, it is in the best interest of the designer to come up with an alternative switching method, the mutual induction between your power coil and trigger coil is not working to your benefit. The trigger is seen as a dead short all the time, and your collapsing field is inducing a field inside the trigger which is almost equal to the power pulse itself. This is the magic, but the circuit isn't designed to give you this energy. Any attempt at trying to take this energy out of the trigger results in the circuit changing its frequency, this results in consumption decrease and the gain mechanism disappears.

The heating in the pots is not caused by generator action alone, it is the combined generator and transformer action the two are in phase in the pickup coil, the pickup coil here being your trigger winding. I have seen losses as high as 200 watts in my trigger circuit. In that particular setup the recovery fluctuated between 50-60% , imagine what it could have been if the trigger wasn't dissipating 200 watts.

To get the power out you want a mismatched impedance network. This was demonstrated wasn't it? The SG as presented is a mismatched impedance network isn't it? the small winding on the trigger versus the large power winding...? you see the shift, you see to which strand the energy coheres don't you?

my two cents....


Regards

[Bung-ee]

awesome information , I have just given a glimpse, I'll need to come back to this. Thanks godzilla, john k, I need to check it out!

@godzilla : I have a 8 18# awg coil, would you, byt the light of your experience, advise me to resell it or to keep it, to set a multi coil SG (my base coil is 7+1 , #20 and #23 wire).
Thank you.

[Forrest]

erfinder, good stuff! I did forget about the collapsing field entering into the trigger circuit. So with this setup we have A/C and negative energy effecting the trigger of the transistors. Now it starts to make perfect sense where all this power is coming from.

Bud

[erfinder]

erfinder, good stuff! I did forget about the collapsing field entering into the trigger circuit. So with this setup we have A/C and negative energy effecting the trigger of the transistors. Now it starts to make perfect sense where all this power is coming from.

Bud

Yeah, most don't see it cause they don't push the circuits hard. I put 500v into my SG circuits I was seeing it all the time, huge pots burning and I couldn't understand why. The trigger isn't part of the power circuit, so you shouldn't see any power being dissipated there. When it finally dawned on me that this coil is quite literally a 1:1 transformer, it becomes clear that the trigger coil is an output winding when the power winding is off, and thanks to mutual induction, the trigger will copy the power that was flowing in the power winding! This technically means that if you keep the resistances of the circuit low and remove the losses in the trigger, COP 1 is a piece of cake, because the pickup coil is literally "MAKING A COPY" of the power supply.

Regards

[BobZilla]

I wrote about this somewhere else on the forum I think but anyway,, I only intend to discuss this and I am not making any claims and do not wish to have a pissing contest.

I am aware of the transforming effect on the trigger. I have always though of it as beneficial and that is where the extra spikes come from. You have the normal spike from the magnet passing and releasing the Mosfet switch, but because of the induction you get self oscillation if the conditions are right, IE RPM, power, many factors. I think that is why my system runs so nicely on 2 spikes, the first is a natural spike so to say from the magnet opening the Mosfet and then a second from the induction re-opening the base.

To take further advantage of that situation I put that capacitor in parallel with the primary which changes the impedance greatly and also accepts the trigger collapse, much more readily than just a battery can. I get no heating or waste of that energy, it goes back into the system. So anyway maybe you guys are talking about something else or maybe I have misunderstood but to me the cross induction is not a problem, it's helping my system.


Along with what Bud was saying though I do want to put a mechanical load on the axle and play around with that. It was the whole reason I struggled with the axle build in the first place, so I could experiment with that. I need to find a fan that will fit or perhaps a pully to drive a little generator wheel, something to put a light load on it. I just have not put that together yet.

Perhaps what you guys are talking about becomes a problem at higher RPM or with larger magnets/ coils but so far with my setup I have not had a problem with too much induction on the trigger.

[Gary Hammond]

Hi guys,

As I understand it, the basic rotored SSG with the 130' 8 filar coil (#20 x 7 and #23 x1) is designed to run on a 12 volt primary battery. It makes sense that when we push the primary voltage to much higher levels, we need to redesign the trigger circuit. JB told us as much! The high induced voltage in the trigger winding from the mutual induction of the higher primary input voltage will cause the problems you are discussing in this thread.

A separate (isolated) trigger source, along with all the windings being power windings, might be the way to go in high powered systems. The trigger could be anything that is properly timed to the wheel. Or it could be any source in an un-rotored or SS SSG.

[BobZilla]

I tend to agree with Gary on this one. I always run my systems at 12v and have not had these problems. My original message was simply comparing 1 v 2 spikes and the frequency doubling and what benifet that could have for over all production, it never was a problem.

I'm pretty sure Mr. Bedini designed the original fully aware of the induction, he does not do anything without a good reason. If it were a problem he would have broke out the trigger to a separate coil. I think he intended it.

Of course we all come up with modifications and some may be beneficial and along with those changes we have to drift away slightly from the original layout so I am not saying that any of this is a bad idea or incorrect. I'm just saying that as designed I'm sure the induction is part of the plan, Mr. Bedini would not overlook something like that.

[John_Koorn]

Quite correct, Mr. Bedini did not overlook the issue. Anyone who has seen the Masterclass #2 DVD where John uses the wind trigger would agree. By separating the trigger winding from the power coil the whole SG machine changes.

Of course I wasn't wise enough to realise at the time why John wanted me to build a wind triggered SG the first time we met. I'll post the pictures of the device we made in his shop so everyone can build it. It's a great way to use wind and solar at the same time to get an SG with a COP of infinity

John K.