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Pastor Gordon's First try at Bedini Energizer

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  • Originally posted by Gary Hammond View Post
    Hi Pastor Gordon,



    I'm writing this from a motel room in Gillette, WY which is about 100 miles past halfway of my trip to the conference. I just lifted you and your wife both up in prayer, and will continue to do so. That sounds like a very serious and risky surgery.
    Thank you Gary. Every single prayer from every single person means the world to both of us!

    OK, here's a question for ALL you guys...

    Has anyone used one of THESE? I have ordered one and am hoping to make it easier to test and match transistors. Think it will do the job?

    -Pastor Gordon
    “Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.”

    Comment


    • Hi PG,

      Originally posted by Pastor Gordon View Post
      .....
      OK, here's a question for ALL you guys...

      Has anyone used one of THESE? I have ordered one and am hoping to make it easier to test and match transistors. Think it will do the job?

      -Pastor Gordon
      I have something similar. http://www.newark.com/peak-electroni...tor/dp/68C9417

      It works but doesn't seem to match transistors as well as the method described in the Intermediate Handbook.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Gary Hammond View Post
        Hi PG,

        I have something similar. http://www.newark.com/peak-electroni...tor/dp/68C9417

        It works but doesn't seem to match transistors as well as the method described in the Intermediate Handbook.
        Thanks Gary

        Im thinking about building the one from the book anyways, just so I can say I've done it, lol. It will be good to have an accurate meter too. Im thinking that the little cheap digital one will at least be a faster way for checking if a transistor is burned out or not. Plus it also checks diodes and resistors and other stuff... So Im thinking that it should help match pairs of stuff up, even if its not exactly accurate. It would be just as inaccurate with each resistor/transistor wouldn't it? Making matched pairs read the same...

        I found a really cheap place to get a BUNCH of transistors, but their the cheap Chinese transistors... I don't know how well they would work. There SUPPOSED to be about the same, but you know how that Chinese stuff is!!! I haven't ordered them yet, Im still thinking about it... I DO have a reliable source for authentic transistors, and Ill probably buy from him anyways. But Im still thinking about those cheap ones... just to test them out...

        Heres a question for ya... Would there be any benefit from using UF5408 diodes on the output instead of 1N4007's? As long as I still use the 1N4001's on the trigger/base terminal?

        -Pastor Gordon
        “Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.”

        Comment


        • Hi PG,

          Originally posted by Pastor Gordon View Post
          Heres a question for ya... Would there be any benefit from using UF5408 diodes on the output instead of 1N4007's? As long as I still use the 1N4001's on the trigger/base terminal?

          -Pastor Gordon
          Haven't tried the UF5408 transistors. I did try the 1N5408's and found they didn't perform as well as the 1N4007's. I also use 1N4007's on the base as well because this is what is supplied in the Teslagenx kit.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Gary Hammond View Post
            Hi PG,

            Haven't tried the UF5408 transistors. I did try the 1N5408's and found they didn't perform as well as the 1N4007's. I also use 1N4007's on the base as well because this is what is supplied in the Teslagenx kit.
            What about what is taught in book 1? On page 30, it says:

            "The first diode in the circuit is needed to conduct currents in the trigger coil loop around the transistor when they were produced in the reverse direction. The new Diode must block currents from the second battery from discharging through the Main Coil. But it must also direct the voltage spike FROM the Main Coil back to the second battery whenever the Main Coil is disconnected from the RUN Battery after the transistor turns OFF. To do this without burning out, this New Diode must be rated for HIGHER VOLTAGES than the first diode."


            I noticed that the Teslagenx boards came with all 1N4007's and was wondering why? Maybe someone can explain the difference between what the book teaches and what is being done by Teslagenx? Cause I just ordered a huge amount of diodes... 3 different kinds... I figured the UF5408 would be similar to the 1N5408 (according to the datasheet and I have also used 1N5408 before) and the output would work better with it. Maybe not???

            I placed large orders on resistors and diodes so that I might be able to pair them up more closely... I haven't ordered transistors yet as I haven't tested the ones I have yet... I know some of them are blown. All I know for sure is that I have 1 good one lol.
            “Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.”

            Comment


            • The book is meant to be a compilation of information to get everyone on the same page with a consistent build. It's not the ONLY way to do things. You will find that some experimenters have their own way of building and doing things that work for them. It's best in my opinion to start with the vanilla (book) build first, and then start trying other things. You have to keep in mind too that the books were an effort to compile a massive amount of information from multiple forum posts and internet pages, in addition to things that John B. has stated. There are likely some inconsistencies and we just have to look past them sometimes and sort it out the best we can.

              Originally posted by Pastor Gordon View Post
              What about what is taught in book 1? On page 30, it says:

              "The first diode in the circuit is needed to conduct currents in the trigger coil loop around the transistor when they were produced in the reverse direction. The new Diode must block currents from the second battery from discharging through the Main Coil. But it must also direct the voltage spike FROM the Main Coil back to the second battery whenever the Main Coil is disconnected from the RUN Battery after the transistor turns OFF. To do this without burning out, this New Diode must be rated for HIGHER VOLTAGES than the first diode."


              I noticed that the Teslagenx boards came with all 1N4007's and was wondering why? Maybe someone can explain the difference between what the book teaches and what is being done by Teslagenx? Cause I just ordered a huge amount of diodes... 3 different kinds... I figured the UF5408 would be similar to the 1N5408 (according to the datasheet and I have also used 1N5408 before) and the output would work better with it. Maybe not???

              I placed large orders on resistors and diodes so that I might be able to pair them up more closely... I haven't ordered transistors yet as I haven't tested the ones I have yet... I know some of them are blown. All I know for sure is that I have 1 good one lol.

              Comment


              • Hi PG,

                Originally posted by Pastor Gordon View Post
                What about what is taught in book 1? On page 30, it says:

                "The first diode in the circuit is needed to conduct currents in the trigger coil loop around the transistor when they were produced in the reverse direction. The new Diode must block currents from the second battery from discharging through the Main Coil. But it must also direct the voltage spike FROM the Main Coil back to the second battery whenever the Main Coil is disconnected from the RUN Battery after the transistor turns OFF. To do this without burning out, this New Diode must be rated for HIGHER VOLTAGES than the first diode."


                I noticed that the Teslagenx boards came with all 1N4007's and was wondering why? Maybe someone can explain the difference between what the book teaches and what is being done by Teslagenx? Cause I just ordered a huge amount of diodes... 3 different kinds... I figured the UF5408 would be similar to the 1N5408 (according to the datasheet and I have also used 1N5408 before) and the output would work better with it. Maybe not???

                I placed large orders on resistors and diodes so that I might be able to pair them up more closely... I haven't ordered transistors yet as I haven't tested the ones I have yet... I know some of them are blown. All I know for sure is that I have 1 good one lol.
                The higher reverse breakdown voltage of the 1N4007 does not hurt it's performance when used at lower voltages. The 1000 volt rating allows it to be used anywhere the reverse voltage is kept below 1000 volts. Since the output can reach 400+ volts on discharge, a 1N4007 is usually recommended on the collector output. -------- But using the 1N4007 in both the output and the input simplifies purchasing and building by reducing the number of different devices at nearly the same cost. It also helps reduce builder errors like using a 1N4001 in the high voltage output location by mistake! Basically it's the well known KISS principle. LOL

                In the case of the 5408's however, it's a little different. The higher current rating of the 1N5408 of 3 amps vs 1 amp for the 1N4008 requires a higher forward current for it to shift from blocking mode to conducting mode. It may also have a little slower switching time and higher forward resistance as a result. I don't recall what the spec sheets show, but I originally used 1N5408's and when I replaced them with 1N4008's the overall performance of the machine improved. The "ultra fast" UF5408's however, may work fine. Don't know. Haven't tried it. Good question.

                I've been told by Aaron and Peter that UF4001's will cause faster charging of the charge battery and lower back charging of the primary. So if you want faster charging, use the UF4001's, and if you want longer run time use 1N4001's. That's about all I can explain about it as best I understand it. LOL
                Last edited by Gary Hammond; 07-11-2016, 07:42 PM.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Branch Gordon View Post
                  The book is meant to be a compilation of information to get everyone on the same page with a consistent build. It's not the ONLY way to do things. You will find that some experimenters have their own way of building and doing things that work for them. It's best in my opinion to start with the vanilla (book) build first, and then start trying other things. You have to keep in mind too that the books were an effort to compile a massive amount of information from multiple forum posts and internet pages, in addition to things that John B. has stated. There are likely some inconsistencies and we just have to look past them sometimes and sort it out the best we can.
                  So what your saying is that I should go by the book, and use 1N4001's AND 1N4007's, and forget about using the higher amperage UF5408 (or 1N5408) correct?

                  -Pastor Gordon
                  “Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.”

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Gary Hammond View Post
                    Hi PG,



                    The higher reverse breakdown voltage of the 1N4007 does not hurt it's performance when used at lower voltages. The 1000 volt rating allows it to be used anywhere the reverse voltage is kept below 1000 volts. I like to use devices rated for ay least double the maximum voltage it may be exposed to. Since the output can reach 400+ volts on discharge, a 1N4007 is usually recommended. -------- But using the 1N4007 in place of the 1N4001 (100 volt max rated) simplifies purchasing and building because it reduces the total number of different devices at nearly the same cost, and helps reduce builder errors like using a 1N4001 in the high voltage location by mistake! Basically it's the well known KISS principle. LOL

                    In the case of the 5408's however, it's a little different. The higher current rating of the 1N5408 of 3 amps vs 1 amp for the 1N4008 requires a higher forward current for it to shift from blocking mode to conducting mode. It may also have a little slower switching time and higher forward resistance as a result. I don't recall what the spec sheets show, but I originally used 1N5408's and when I replaced them with 1N4008's the overall performance of the machine improved. The "ultra fast" UF5408's however, may work fine. Don't know. Haven't tried it. Good question.

                    I've been told by Aaron and Peter that UF4001's will cause faster charging of the charge battery and lower back charging of the primary. So if you want faster charging, use the UF4001's, and if you want longer run time use 1N4001's. That's about all I can explain about it as best I understand it. LOL
                    OK, I think Im beginning to understand...

                    If I use the lower voltage diodes across the base/emitter, Im eventually going to burn them up because of high voltage spikes coming through that part of the circuit. And as long as the diode between the base and emitter is equal to or less than the diode going to the output charge battery it should work just fine. But if the diode going to the charge side is a lower voltage than the diode on the base/emitter then the transistor will most likely burn out. Am I looking at this the right way?

                    As far as the 5408's are concerned, I don't really care about them at this point... I just want to get this thing running STABLE for the time being! After that I can fiddle around with stuff... I HAVE to get this right in order for my NEXT (experimental) project to work the way I think it should because the monopole motor will be the heart of the system I have running through my head... We will not get into that at the moment though...

                    -Pastor Gordon
                    “Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.”

                    Comment


                    • I'm not going to actually recommend anything as far as circuit components go. I'll leave that to others more experienced. I was simply making a point regarding your statement about the inconsistency between the book and Teslagenx.

                      Originally posted by Pastor Gordon View Post
                      So what your saying is that I should go by the book, and use 1N4001's AND 1N4007's, and forget about using the higher amperage UF5408 (or 1N5408) correct?

                      -Pastor Gordon

                      Comment


                      • Hi PG,

                        Originally posted by Pastor Gordon View Post
                        OK, I think Im beginning to understand...

                        If I use the lower voltage diodes across the base/emitter, Im eventually going to burn them up because of high voltage spikes coming through that part of the circuit. And as long as the diode between the base and emitter is equal to or less than the diode going to the output charge battery it should work just fine. But if the diode going to the charge side is a lower voltage than the diode on the base/emitter then the transistor will most likely burn out. Am I looking at this the right way?

                        -Pastor Gordon
                        Not exactly. You only need a 100 volt diode across the base -emitter circuit, but using a 1000 volt diode there works just as well.

                        You need the 1000 volt diode on the collector - coil output because the voltage spikes there are so high, whereas a 1N4001 diode will be damaged if used on the output. So why not just use the higher voltage diodes both places to avoid any mix-ups?

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Gary Hammond View Post
                          Hi PG,



                          Not exactly. You only need a 100 volt diode across the base -emitter circuit, but using a 1000 volt diode there works just as well.

                          You need the 1000 volt diode on the collector - coil output because the voltage spikes there are so high, whereas a 1N4001 diode will be damaged if used on the output. So why not just use the higher voltage diodes both places to avoid any mix-ups?
                          Thanks Gary, and you too Branch, I think that cleared it up for me as far as the diodes go. I needed to understand the "WHY" something works, not just the "HOW" to put it together. I NEED to understand the science behind the theory

                          Now with that out of the way, I have yet another technical question lol...

                          I pulled every transistor out of my machine today, BOTH machines, the big and the small one. I even pulled the 2N3055's out of the small machine that weren't hooked up... I wanted to know exactly WHAT I have that is still good and what is bad! I have a total of 12 MJL21194's and 5 2N3055's. Thing is, only 1 transistor checked "BAD" or shorted out out of each type. So here's my big question about these transistors...

                          About how much hFE and Uf should I be getting out of the MJL21194's? Im not so concerned about the 2N3055's cause I only have 4 good ones. But after testing, it seems that I have 11 good MJL transistors here!

                          (I believe hFE = gain or amplification factor, and Uf = Base/emitter voltage drop)

                          From the datasheet I have learned that the hFE should fall somewhere between 25 and 75, so that much of it is correct. But I cant tell what the voltage drop (Uf) should be. Most everywhere Im reading people say ALL NPN transistors should have a drop of around .7V (or 700mV) but I cant find that value on my datasheets, so I'm not sure! If that's true then the voltage drop on all of these is way too low (I think) meaning I need all new transistors. Can someone help me on this?

                          I wrote the numbers down for each transistor, and the hFE ranges between 37 and 43 (most of which are 41). The Uf ranges between 542 mV and 555 mV. I don't know if this is normal, or if they are "leaking" or out of "range" or whatever... If these numbers are normal, then I don't need to order any more transistors and the fault lies with some other component of the circuit (I haven't tested each diode and resistor yet). I DID test the coil, and it checked out OK.

                          ANYONE who knows please post your thoughts... Im working Gary pretty hard here lol.

                          -Pastor Gordon
                          Last edited by Pastor Gordon; 07-12-2016, 07:15 AM.
                          “Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.”

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Pastor Gordon View Post
                            Thank you, Im going to try that first thing tomorrow... then Ill make other changes as suggested by Gary Hammond if it don't work...
                            Great work. I really loved it.

                            Comment


                            • Hi PG,

                              (I believe hFE = gain or amplification factor, and Uf = Base/emitter voltage drop)
                              The transistor checker uses a given forward current, usually 10ma, to check both the DC current gain (which is the hFE) and the forward voltage drop which is VF (not UF). The forward voltage drop is measured across the emitter to collector leads when the collector current is at 10ma. (The base/emitter current will only be 10ma/hFE and the base/emitter voltage will be very low.)

                              The forward voltage drop is usually around .6 volts on my tester at 10ma forward current. This is about normal for most NPN silicon transistors. (I've noticed that Chinese electronic manuals often substitute the letter U for the letter V.)

                              The component analyzer I have also checks for forward leakage current, which should be below 100 microamps for the MJL21194 transistor.

                              Here's a link to the ON semiconductor MJL21194 transistor. http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/19...657.1448394132
                              Last edited by Gary Hammond; 07-12-2016, 08:56 PM. Reason: add link

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Gary Hammond View Post
                                Hi PG,



                                The transistor checker uses a given forward current, usually 10ma, to check both the DC current gain (which is the hFE) and the forward voltage drop which is VF (not UF). The forward voltage drop is measured across the emitter to collector leads when the collector current is at 10ma. (The base/emitter current will only be 10ma/hFE and the base/emitter voltage will be very low.)

                                The forward voltage drop is usually around .6 volts on my tester at 10ma forward current. This is about normal for most NPN silicon transistors. (I've noticed that Chinese electronic manuals often substitute the letter U for the letter V.)

                                The component analyzer I have also checks for forward leakage current, which should be below 100 microamps for the MJL21194 transistor.

                                Here's a link to the ON semiconductor MJL21194 transistor. http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/19...657.1448394132
                                Thanks again Gary!!!

                                Ok, I think I got it. I figured the Uf should have been Vf. (Using my little Chinese checker) Thank you for verifying that.

                                Most of these transistors are reading around the following:

                                Vf - 550 (+/- a few)
                                hFE - 40 (+/- a few)

                                I also measured across the collector/emitter with my diode tester on my multi-meter and most of them read around (C-.490) and (E-.510) (give or take a little). Remember that there are 11 transistors being checked here. There are no "shorts" in any of these 11. I only had 1 that was completely shorted out.

                                For the MJL21194 does that look about right? Im thinking it is, but I want verification from someone who KNOWS before I go and order a bunch more transistors...

                                Here's pics of ALL my readings I've taken so far. All parts are brand new except for the transistors...

                                20160712_231351.jpg 20160712_231402.jpg

                                20160712_231412.jpg 20160712_231422.jpg

                                -Pastor Gordon
                                Last edited by Pastor Gordon; 07-12-2016, 09:24 PM.
                                “Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.”

                                Comment

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