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  • blackchisel97
    replied
    Thank you Paul, it is good to read you. The idea behind my work with negative ions is to find out if and how they may affect the surrounding environment. I'm sensitive to weather disturbances and can detect storm coming for hours ahead. Since I only have basic electronic equipment my ways to test are limited. I'll take time later to read the links you have provided. I appreciate your input.

    Thebanano. This was my concern also with using flyback so I decided to reverse the electrodes. Potential will always search for sharp or pointy object - in this case hv coming off the transformer is connected to the copper tubes ( ID 0.75" each) and negative is connected to the points. That was my logic. I'll think about a bit more. Of course, voltage multiplier would be plain and simple. Switching diodes around will provide either pos. or neg. output.
    I will look into Tesla patent.

    Update: What just occurred to me is that modern flashback transformers have built in rectifier. The old ones don't

    Thanks
    Vtech
    Last edited by blackchisel97; 12-10-2012, 06:16 AM.

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  • thebanano
    replied
    Hello blackchisel97, nice project, wandering to know the diameter of each hollow pipe of your NIG...mine was only 3/4" from a copper tube.
    But, there's something that i want to consider about the negative ion generator from a flyback converter (FBT), that made me confuse about the ion created from a FBT. As my two previous post, there's some post on the net tells that FBT doesn't create a negative output, only a neutral and positive output. maybe that makes CRT tv and monitor play a big role for ion ratio being unstable around our environment. That's why i was search on the net how to get a negative output from a FBT, but come to a dead end, cause i have to understand what is positive and negative output anyway, which mean that would make me headache

    So i came to a conclusion (of mine indeed), that my fbt only act as ozone generator, and for an ion generator i prefer use multiplier voltage via capacitor and diode, ZDPM should have one,

    By The Way Blackchisel97, this is the tesla patent that i would like you to understanding that meaning, if i wouldn't ask too much :
    Patent No.613,735 - Electric Circuit Controller
    This device exist at tesla ozone generator, and other patent. that make me curious to replicated that...

    kind regards

    Leave a comment:


  • thebanano
    replied
    Hello blackchisel97, nice project, wandering to know the diameter of each hollow pipe of your NIG...
    There's something that i want to consider about the negative ion generator from a flyback converter (FBT), that made me confuse about the ion created from a FBT. As my two previous post, there's some post on the net tells that FBT doesn't create a negative output, only a neutral and positive output. maybe that makes CRT tv and monitor play a big role for ion ratio being unstable around our environment. That's why i was search on the net how to get a negative output from a FBT, but come to a dead end, cause i have to understand what is positive and negative output anyway, which mean that would make me headache

    So i came to a conclusion (of mine indeed), that my fbt only act as ozone generator, and for an ion generator i prefer use multiplier voltage via capacitor and diode, ZDPM should have one,

    By The Way Blackchisel97, this is the tesla patent that i would like you to understanding that meaning, if i wouldn't ask too much :
    Patent No.613,735 - Electric Circuit Controller
    This device exist at tesla ozone generator, and other patent. that make me curious to replicated that...

    kind regards

    Leave a comment:


  • ZPDM
    replied
    Vtech,

    Congratulatons on a well developed and quickly built project, very cool. I had a chance to glance at the references you provided and to spend a little time again looking in the medical literature. There is also really surprisingly little in the literature on negative ions in the air. I'll say a few things but please keep in mind this is entirely speculative/framework type stuff based from a couple/few hours reading.

    First is what are we making with an ion generator? Leaving aside any etheric field, frequency modulated effects (which I would have to suppose might also possibly be present) and focusing on the ions I suppose it is primarily oxygen ions, though I don't know maybe other components in air also ionize and/or the organic components in the air ionize directly without any intermediary. Also there is the ozone component which if I understand you correctly is not entirely avoidable but is related to the degree of corona present. So one is what do the ions do when first hitting the air as well as the issue of concentration?

    Second is what does it do healthwise? There are a few areas that have been studied. First is the decrease in transmission of infectious disease, I suspect this is primarily related to the ionziation and subsequent deposition of pathogens floating in the air. There have been two studies looking at the transmission of a chicken virus in chicken coops. Negative ionization decreased spread of the virus in both studies, in one they note however, that transmission was not much effected within a single chicken cage but was greatly decreased cage to cage, which might go along with this being an effect of virus particles no longer floating as well in the air. An animal study looked at guinea pigs exposed to tuberculosis (a much larger pathogen) and found negative ionization about equal to UV light for preventing disease transmission. Recently a group did a test tube study and attempted to isolate the ionic effects from electric effects and ozone effects. While there is a distinct possibility for bias in any revenue threatening treatment, this study concluded that any bacteriacidal effects were mediated almost entirely by ozone. Ozone is harmful to humans so there is a safety concern here. As I'll get to in a moment though, there may also be effects of negative ions on the host even if no pronounced effect on pathogens. There have been other studies showing a decrease in infectious transmission from ion generation. Similarly I would guess that the effects reported related to asthma might be secondary to clearing of particulate matter from the air, though there have also been reported effects on air way passage cells' ciliary action.

    Second is the effect on depression. It is sometimes difficult to properly pin down endpoints in these type studies and to design the study well, however there have been at least 2 or 3 studies showing a beneficial effect in depression and one I believe showing an improvement in concentration. While not overwhelming still likely better than anti-depressants for adolescents which the research now states increase suicidal ideation in the under 25 age group. The current reponse to the evidence on "anti-depressants", FDA reviewer, "It doesn't mean that these drugs shouldn't be given to young adults but you have to think about the risks and the benefits. The findings tell you to watch people carefully. If someone on antidepressants talks of being suicidal, it may actually be due to the drugs." ... Professor John Geddes, an epidemiological psychiatrist at Oxford University, said it is important that patients taking antidepressants continued with their medication. 'Antidepressants increase suicidal thoughts in under-25s' - Health News - Health & Families - The Independent

    Finally is the effect on burn patients. Along with the decrease in infections there seems to be a noticable decrease in pain, leading to less need for pain medication reported for people recovering in negative ion rooms. Apparently a large trauma center makes use of this. Nonetheless, there has been only one study I found directly on the subject and no randomized controlled trials, that seems a shame to me.

    Perhaps the most interesting study I saw was a test tube study which reported that negative ions increased the activity of the superoxide dismustase enzyme system. This is notable for a couple reasons. First if negative ions are having an effect on one enzyme system they may also effect other systems. Second, the SOD system is the firstline defense against free-radicals especially the prevalent (and by product of mitochondrial resperation) superoxide anion. So negative ions increased, in one test tube study, the activity of the primary anti-oxidant enzyme system. Are negative ion generators primarily generating the superoxide anion? If so on the surface that would look very, very bad as superoxide is a potent free radical. That is why I asked what exactly does the ion generator create in the air. The clinical research however, has not shown such toxicity and quite honestly I don't know what the negative ion generators make in the air. In any event if this research concerning the SOD enzyme system were to hold up, and be further investigated, it might have a wide range of possible applications in a number of diseases.

    Also, a number of people currently feel that altering the body pH to a more alkaline state is desirable for health. This topic is too broad to go into, however, I would just ask, isn't increasing the number of negative ions in the air, analagous to, or in actuality, increasing the pH of the air? Lastly to give just an entirely speculative research question, both silver and copper have been well documented as having anti-microbial effects. I wonder, is there any way to ionize silver or copper into the air?

    While this an interesting area for research and academic discussion, the state of evidence is currently sparse. As a physician I do not recommend that anyone use any type of negative ion generator to attempt to treat or alter any disease or condition. Below are a few more references from the literature for further research. The links are to the abstracts but about half the links have the full text of the study available by clicking a box in the upper right hand corner. You gave me a lot to learn about and think about, Thanks!

    Paul



    Upper-room ultraviolet light and negative air ionization to prevent tuberculosis transmission. PLoS Med. 2009 Upper-room ultraviolet light and negative air ioniz... [PLoS Med. 2009] - PubMed - NCBI

    Bactericidal action of positive and negative ions in air. BMC Microbiol. 2007 Bactericidal action of positive and negative i... [BMC Microbiol. 2007] - PubMed - NCBI

    [Effects of ionization of the air on some bacterial strains]. Ann Ig. 1989 [Effects of ionization of the air on some bac... [Ann Ig. 1989 Nov-Dec] - PubMed - NCBI

    Hospital-acquired legionnaires disease in a university hospital: impact of the copper-silver ionization system. Clin Infect Dis. 2007 Hospital-acquired legionnaires disease in a ... [Clin Infect Dis. 2007] - PubMed - NCBI

    Effect of negative air ionization on airborne transmission of Newcastle disease virus. Avian Dis. 1994

    Studies on the effects of ionization on bacterial aerosols in a burns and plastic surgery unit. J Hyg (Lond). 1979 Studies on the effects of ionization on bacteri... [J Hyg (Lond). 1979] - PubMed - NCBI

    The effect of air ionization on the air-borne transmission of experimental Newcastle disease virus infections in chickens. J Hyg (Lond). 1979 The effect of air ionization on the air-borne t... [J Hyg (Lond). 1979] - PubMed - NCBI

    The effect of negative air ion exposure on Escherichia coli and Pseudomonas fluorescens. The effect of negative air ion exposure on Escherichia coli and Pseudomonas fluorescens. The effe... [J Environ Sci Health A Tox Hazard Subst Environ Eng. 2008] - PubMed - NCBI

    The stimulatory effect of negative air ions and hydrogen peroxide on the activity of superoxide dismutase. FEBS Lett. 1997 The stimulatory effect of negative air ions and hy... [FEBS Lett. 1997] - PubMed - NCBI

    Treatment of seasonal affective disorder with a high-output negative ionizer. J Altern Complement Med. 1995 J Altern Complement Med. 1995
    Last edited by ZPDM; 12-09-2012, 07:53 PM.

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  • blackchisel97
    replied
    I've been testing my NIG for the past 24hrs. Circuit runs cool even at 32VDC. I found small wall power supply from salvaged printer. It has 16V and 32VDC output. On 32V ionic wind blows the candle from almost 1m (3ft) away. I finally managed to take a shot in the dark to show glowing tips of the negative electrodes - needles.
    Click image for larger version

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    Thanks
    Vtech

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  • blackchisel97
    replied
    I took couple shots of my NIG (Negative Ion Generator) prototype -
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    and just started uploading short YT. It should take about 4 hrs - http://youtu.be/MReUF8n8U74
    More to come

    Thanks
    Vtech

    PS I just found neat ZVS simulation on YT - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ONq3DxXE2w
    Last edited by blackchisel97; 12-08-2012, 06:30 AM.

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  • blackchisel97
    replied
    Paul, here I got some info on the subject of ions and their effect on biological forms -
    Dr Clarence Weston Hansell -
    Stony Brook University Special Collections & Archives box 15
    Columbia Psychiatry
    Penn State Department of Architectural Engineering
    Cambridge Journals Online - Abstract
    Dr Kornblueh - Report of the committee of ionization of the air - Springer
    Ions Can Do Strange Things to You
    Research on Negative Ions - Imazine Canada
    http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&...lslVWxtegW-CMQ
    Detailed information about negative ions and ionizers (printable)
    http://scialert.net/fulltext/?doi=ta...130.133&org=10

    There is more but this was enough to make me curious

    Thanks
    Vtech
    Last edited by blackchisel97; 12-06-2012, 04:36 PM.

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  • blackchisel97
    replied
    Hello all.
    Theunis, you don't need a massive amounts of ozone being created. I'm trying to mimic nature which works with subtle fields. One natural source of negative ions working witch such is a shower. Moving water, such as waterfall, cascade or fountain will create such. Also, moving water gets energized and passes this to the environment. Think of Lord Kelvin experiment with water droplets falling thru the tubes and HV discharge. Also, work of Russel, Schauberger or - going back in time aquifers under the Great Pyramids. Ever wonder why quick shower is so regenerating? First of all, it removes static charge from our bodies by grounding excessive potential but also invigorates. Electrical processes in our bodies are on very low voltage level. At the same time static charge on the top of our head my reach 200+V. We wont fry our circuitry because of that but we can fry sensitive equipment or components such FET's by touching them. However, this excessive charge accumulates and affects us all the time. There is another thread started on Earthing or Grounding.
    Once you get corona discharge you also get large quantity of ozone. This is fine for commercial applications such as disinfecting, water treatment and such but not for home use.

    Paul, I'll get the reference you're asking about later today. I need to go and try to make some $.

    Thanks
    Vtech

    Leave a comment:


  • ZPDM
    replied
    Vtech,

    This is something I know nothing about. Would you be willing to cite some of the studies relating to negative ions in the air. I should not be lazy and spend more time on PubMed and elsewhere but it seems a bit difficult to tease out. I know Albert Svent-Gyorgi (if I have his name right) the Nobel prize winning discoverer of vitamin C was very interested in electrical facets to health. There is also, of course the issue of oxidation, which would seemingly be retarded in a reduced ambient environment. Anyhow if you have some studies I could take a look at I would be both interested and thankful.

    Leave a comment:


  • Prinsloo
    replied
    Hi Guys

    I am all for experimenting, and building your own, it's the best way of learning and no one can take that away.

    My experience is when building ozone generator, the hot corona units get very hot (in fact red hot if not cooled), and breaks down most of the beneficial effect of ozone and can generating "not so healthy" or noxious gasses at the same time !

    I tried electronic units and are back at using a "Neon sign lighting" transformer (not the electronics ones), at 7 000v at 3 mA (i think), with a 3 mm glass plate and stainless steel screening on both sides, this unit runs gold, it can be used in a closed room without any side effects.

    If i use the the same glass with screen on an electronic unit it get almost red hot after a while, I think when the gas is heated up that all kinds of funny and dangerous combinations can appear.

    (Sorry Vtech have not done an negative ion generator yet will follow and watch your results. Just had to clarify the Ozone thing)

    Theunis
    Last edited by Prinsloo; 12-05-2012, 11:58 PM.

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  • blackchisel97
    replied
    Hi guys. I was away and just got back after 1000km drive but I want to answer some questions before going to bed.
    As I wrote earlier in post 3, I'm trying to make negative ion generator to restore the balance in the air I'm breathing without making significant amounts of ozone at the same time. I'll try to take some pictures of my launcher prototype tomorrow. They may not show well but I have very faint glow at the sharp tips only and ionic wind coming out of tubes. There is also hissing wind like sound. My electrodes are spaced about 2inch (5cm) apart from the tubes and I have current limiter on power supply which will be later replaced with 5MOhm 3W resistor in series with HV output. Without this I can get 5-6cm streamers but power draw will go up to 4A. I don't need that. Capacitor paralleled with primary winding can be adjusted too. I had 2 x 0.47uF 630V and was getting resonance at 28kHz. I took one off and frequency went up to 38kHz. Power draw is about 0.34A at 15VDC.
    I will provide more details and pictures (maybe short YT) about this circuit. I'll build another one based on voltage multiplier to compare and use one for negative ions and other for ozone. I want to use ozone for disinfecting and cleaning purposes also, to make ozonated water. In higher concentrations ozone isn't beneficial and can cause respiratory problems so I'm not looking to saturate the air with it. At least not the areas occupied. I need some more time but I'm very happy with HV circuit. I used IRFP460 because I had them and they're rated at 400V but IRFP250 are cheaper and will do just fine. Once in resonance everything runs cool. I tried at 12V but went up to 15V to make sure that FET's will switch good. Capacitor should be MPP (metalized polypropylene) rated at 400-630V. I will explain how to utilize HV transformer which can be salvaged from broken TV and it is free.

    Thebanano, I'm not sure which Tesla Controller you're talking about. Could you provide more details or patent number?

    Thanks
    Vtech

    Leave a comment:


  • thebanano
    replied
    thanks for the links theunis, for me personally making my own unit, which have not even close if to compared with manufactured ones, got more satisfaction for me...for the time and money that i have to spent on that, i think equal with what i have got in this field, because i am just a land surveyor and regional planner.
    i am hereby glad that someone at skillfull like blackchisel97, want to "go down" and starting a numerous "low level" experiment on a thread at this forum, so we can share everything that we know, and can get more valuable result that maybe we have missed when we were in same experiment before. i hope theunis would appreciated that. :-)

    by the way, does anyone in this forum know the electric circuit controller of tesla? what is this thing? are this was similiar with transistor ?

    kind regards

    Leave a comment:


  • Prinsloo
    replied
    Hi Guys

    May I ask what do you want to do with the Ozone generators?

    1. Do you want to make Ozone jell by passing the ozone through olive oil to create a cream/ jell for medical use?
    2. Do you want to aerate a room while occupying the room, iaw breathing in the ozone and for air purification specially in area with bad air quality, excellent for lung deceases etc. of course.
    3. Do you want to use the Ozone for intravenous injections, directly into the veins, normally done by a practitioner, like an LLMD.
    4. Do you want to build the unit into a sauna, while taking a sauna having the steam and ozone together for treatment.
    5. Do you want to use it for insufflation’s, or treating deceased organs and limbs by cupping, bagging organs, like hands, legs, etc.

    Maybe this will help with out re-inventing the wheel again.
    2g ozone generator for water treatment and air purifier - ZOT-2G110V - z-ozone (China Manufacturer) - Air Purifier - Consumer Electronics &
    3.5g ozone generator for water treatment and air purifier - ZOP-3.5G220V - NONE (China Manufacturer) - Air Purifier - Consumer Electronics &
    7g ozone generator for water treatment and air purifier - ZOP-7G220V - NONE (China Manufacturer) - Air Purifier - Consumer Electronics &

    Theunis

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  • thebanano
    replied
    agree blackchisel97, ceramic and glass i think is the best conductor, i'am very interest about reactor tube/ion launcher of yours, i just waiting my ceramic tube based on my last china ozonator desain....interestingly i want to duplicate tesla's ozonator based on his patent. but...the languange and the explanation of the patent was not in my brain level... if i can get more time...

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  • blackchisel97
    replied
    Nice work Thebanano. I'll also make another ionizer using voltage multiplier. I'm working my mind about construction of "reactor" tube or ion launcher, if you will. Most plastics will degrade while exposed to ozone. Also, plastics are long chains of hydrocarbons and once degraded they may become conductive - thanks to the presence of carbon molecules. To me the ideal solution would be either ceramic (fired clay) or glass tube sealed at both ends and equipped with two nozzles, one for intake and one for outlet of air. Air circulation can be enhanced by the use of air pump on the intake side to avoid any contact with ozone. Output will be directed to the bubbler, ideally by glass tube as well. For ozonator I'll probably use carbon fiber mesh instead of metal electrodes.

    Thank you
    Vtech

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