Battery cycling voltages for best results.

[Woody]

Howdy ya'll,

Ok. I just watched "battery secrets" which is a presentation by Peter Lindemann about batteries and what he and J.B. learned about them in the course of their research. I highly recommend this video to anyone who is involved in this research!! Two things were mentioned that conflict with what was advocated as good battery cycling practice during SSG battery cycling runs.

When I joined the old yahoo groups the material that was available instructed us to to charge our batteries to around 14.5v and discharge them to 12v. It was emphatically emphasized to NEVER, under penalty of severe battery damage, EVER discharge the batteries to less than 12v. However, in "battery secrets" Peter says that it was discovered that 12v lead acid batteries really want to be raised to around 16v for the chemical reaction to be completed and the battery to be fully charged. Also, he mentioned that the Bedini rejuvenator will take a battery down to 10.5v before it resumes it's recharge cycle.

My question is this: Should we be using 16v for charge termination and 10.5v for discharge termination during SSG testing, or are these numbers more suited to operational use of the battery in normal day to day use, or in the case of the rejuvenator for restoring old batteries?

I will add the obvious caveat that the user should get to know their batteries' peculiarities and individual characteristics. For example, my 5ah motorcycle batteries seem to reach their "peak charge" at about 15.42v. After that they begin to drop slightly and level off. Also, just prior to that I observe some off-gassing, whereas there is none prior to that point. Peter Lindemann indicated that these are the signs that the battery has completed it's chemical process, and is fully charged.

Thanks!

-Woody

[kingstingtin]

Woody, here Tom C responds to a similar question.
http://www.energyscienceforum.com/be....html#post4896

[Woody]

Thanks for the link Konstantin!

-Woody

[Tom C]

Howdy ya'll,

Ok. I just watched "battery secrets" which is a presentation by Peter Lindemann about batteries and what he and J.B. learned about them in the course of their research. I highly recommend this video to anyone who is involved in this research!! Two things were mentioned that conflict with what was advocated as good battery cycling practice during SSG battery cycling runs.

When I joined the old yahoo groups the material that was available instructed us to to charge our batteries to around 14.5v and discharge them to 12v. It was emphatically emphasized to NEVER, under penalty of severe battery damage, EVER discharge the batteries to less than 12v. However, in "battery secrets" Peter says that it was discovered that 12v lead acid batteries really want to be raised to around 16v for the chemical reaction to be completed and the battery to be fully charged. Also, he mentioned that the Bedini rejuvenator will take a battery down to 10.5v before it resumes it's recharge cycle.

My question is this: Should we be using 16v for charge termination and 10.5v for discharge termination during SSG testing, or are these numbers more suited to operational use of the battery in normal day to day use, or in the case of the rejuvenator for restoring old batteries?

I will add the obvious caveat that the user should get to know their batteries' peculiarities and individual characteristics. For example, my 5ah motorcycle batteries seem to reach their "peak charge" at about 15.42v. After that they begin to drop slightly and level off. Also, just prior to that I observe some off-gassing, whereas there is none prior to that point. Peter Lindemann indicated that these are the signs that the battery has completed it's chemical process, and is fully charged.

Thanks!

-Woody

so again here we must talk about context. what kind of battery? a true deep cycle golf kart battery will cycle that low, that is what JB and Peter were testing with. so 10.5 is no big deal for a trojan. if you do that to a starter battery you will kill it. starter batteries provide hi current for a short period of time. but they dont do well with long discharges, which is why you can leave your dome light on overnight and your car is dead. think about that dome light is drawing less than an amp and yet it kills your car if your batteyr is more thn a year old. the batteyr must match the service it is designed for.

your depth of discharge depends upon your battery... 50 percent D.O.D. is good for cycling a small battery on an SG. keep it above C20

Tom C

[Woody]

so again here we must talk about context. what kind of battery? a true deep cycle golf kart battery will cycle that low, that is what JB and Peter were testing with. so 10.5 is no big deal for a trojan. if you do that to a starter battery you will kill it. starter batteries provide hi current for a short period of time. but they dont do well with long discharges, which is why you can leave your dome light on overnight and your car is dead. think about that dome light is drawing less than an amp and yet it kills your car if your batteyr is more thn a year old. the batteyr must match the service it is designed for.

your depth of discharge depends upon your battery... 50 percent D.O.D. is good for cycling a small battery on an SG. keep it above C20

Tom C

Thanks Tom!

Context is indeed everything. I don't remember Peter mentioning that deep cycle batteries were used for those tests, nor did I realize the rejuvenator was tailored for deep cycle batteries. As far as normal SSG building and testing, I figure most people are using standard vehicle starter batteries, and in fact that was what was recommended in all the documentation for beginners, probably for the sake of cost. Maybe that's sometimes why people see a discrepancy between what is reported by more advanced experimenters and their own results. Maybe it should be emphasized that deep cycle batteries are best for these units, and if at all possible use them instead of starter batteries. Ultimately, for those who want to apply this tech to off-grid systems, (and who doesn't) the deep cycle batts will be the target energy storage units anyway, so we might as well use them from the beginning and become familiar with their behavior. Of course, they are more expensive so that is a big consideration. I'm going to switch to deep cycle batteries for my continuing experimentation. I have learned alot from using the batteries I have, but I think it's time to move up to a battery that is more appropriate for these uses.

Thanks again Tom, and I really appreciate the time you put in here keeping us straight on all this!

-Woody

[Aaron Murakami]

nor did I realize the rejuvenator was tailored for deep cycle batteries

Woody,

They work perfect for starter batteries. I've brought back plenty of regular 12v car batteries (non deep cycle).

Yes, starter batteries shouldn't be drawn down like deep cycle. But if a car batter for example is powering a load and it drains down to 9v, there will be sulfation down at that level. If you never draw that particular battery down to at least 9v or a bit below, you'll just be plating on top of that sulfation layer, which will always be acting as an imperfection that reduces the amount of current you can draw from that battery. For that particular battery, it needs to be drawn down to that 9v or a bit below and then put on a charger right away. If that isn't done, it will never be rejuvenated. Now, that battery may not ever come back like new, but most likely, and in my experience, it will come back with a lot more capacity than if you just keep it at 12v or above.

Please note that I'm only talking about a 12v starter battery that has been abused and loaded down to a lower voltage than it should have been drained to. I would never take a good condition 12v starter battery and drain it down to deep cycle voltages because they're not made for that.

I've been working on 2 of the walmart everstart 12v 11ah garden batteries. They're starter batteries so really aren't rated in amp hours anyway, they're rated in CCA or cold cranking amps. Anyway, I've had these 2 batteries sitting at 2-3 volts for about 3-4 years. For the most part, they're trash. Because the sulfation is at such a deep level, I tried charging them and they'd get up to voltage but they wouldn't stay up and wouldn't power a load.

So one of them, I drained with a computerized battery analyzer down to 1 volt at a c20 rate (0.55 amps) and charged it up - bit by bit, I was able to take almost 60 watt hours of juice from it down to 9 volts or so but before I did that deep discharge to 1 volt, I literally couldn't even pull 5 watt hours from it before it was done. Although it improved quite a bit, it wasn't good enough meaning there are still some deep sulfation layers I'm not getting.

I brought this battery down with the constant current analyzer to about 0.5 volts and it took a while to get lower and I eventually just shorted the terminals and the lowest I could bring it was 0.015 volts - that was as close to 0.00 as I could get it.

Then I'm charging it back up. I expect to get at least 70-90 watt hours of juice from it down to 9v from full charge this time. Why 9v? That is a bit below when one of the cells falls out (2v) and powers a load for a while again. After a few cycles, I'll keep it to 11v+ and won't drain it below that anymore. These were doomed for the trash so I have nothing to lose.

The point I'm making is that I agree with what Tom said. I'm just giving an example of where you actually might want to drain a battery below the safe level is if it is ALREADY abused and has been brought down to low voltages. Then, you have to draw it down to at least that level or a bit below then put it on the rejuvenator. Otherwise, you'll never get that sulfation off the plates and the battery will have a weak foundation.

Again, don't ever do this with good batteries. But if you have a battery that you can't rejuvenate no matter what and you have nothing to lose but some time, then you can try it out and see what happens.

I don't expect either of these batteries to ever be like new, but one is already 12 TIMES the capacity it started by draining it to 1v. This time around shorting it to zero - we'll see. Just remember, these were at 2-3 volts for 3-4 years sitting around so it is AMAZING they're giving me what they are right now.

[Woody]

Thanks for all the info Aaron! I appreciate you chiming in with your data. It's very helpful! There is soooo much to learn here...........

-Woody

[Tom C]

Thanks Tom!

Context is indeed everything. I don't remember Peter mentioning that deep cycle batteries were used for those tests, nor did I realize the rejuvenator was tailored for deep cycle batteries. As far as normal SSG building and testing, I figure most people are using standard vehicle starter batteries, and in fact that was what was recommended in all the documentation for beginners, probably for the sake of cost. Maybe that's sometimes why people see a discrepancy between what is reported by more advanced experimenters and their own results. Maybe it should be emphasized that deep cycle batteries are best for these units, and if at all possible use them instead of starter batteries. Ultimately, for those who want to apply this tech to off-grid systems, (and who doesn't) the deep cycle batts will be the target energy storage units anyway, so we might as well use them from the beginning and become familiar with their behavior. Of course, they are more expensive so that is a big consideration. I'm going to switch to deep cycle batteries for my continuing experimentation. I have learned alot from using the batteries I have, but I think it's time to move up to a battery that is more appropriate for these uses.

Thanks again Tom, and I really appreciate the time you put in here keeping us straight on all this!

-Woody

Woody,

I dont think I mentioned anything about the rejuvenator in my post, I was simply commenting on what peter was working with when he was doing the testing. I have 3 24 volt rejuvenators, well 2 working..... one of them I blew up its getting repaired at energenx right now. so I have no experience with the 12 volt model, I do know the 12 volt ones work well on starter batteries. I want to agree with Aaron on his cycling. honestly I never have worked with batteries as bad as what he is doing, its a great example of what pulse charging and radiant can do to sulphation. the rejuvenators have settings on them that help the microprocessor determine how it should cycle the battery.

Tom C

[Aaron Murakami]

I want to agree with Aaron on his cycling. honestly I never have worked with batteries as bad as what he is doing, its a great example of what pulse charging and radiant can do to sulphation. the rejuvenators have settings on them that help the microprocessor determine how it should cycle the battery.

These batts are just an extreme case scenario for testing purposes. If I were doing a battery rejuvenation business, I wouldn't waste time with batteries this bad - I'd scrap them. I'm testing a new battery analyzer and a monster coil inductive spike charger so I'm just seeing what it can do.

[Dave Wing]

Thanks Tom!

Context is indeed everything. I don't remember Peter mentioning that deep cycle batteries were used for those tests, nor did I realize the rejuvenator was tailored for deep cycle batteries. As far as normal SSG building and testing, I figure most people are using standard vehicle starter batteries, and in fact that was what was recommended in all the documentation for beginners, probably for the sake of cost. Maybe that's sometimes why people see a discrepancy between what is reported by more advanced experimenters and their own results. Maybe it should be emphasized that deep cycle batteries are best for these units, and if at all possible use them instead of starter batteries. Ultimately, for those who want to apply this tech to off-grid systems, (and who doesn't) the deep cycle batts will be the target energy storage units anyway, so we might as well use them from the beginning and become familiar with their behavior. Of course, they are more expensive so that is a big consideration. I'm going to switch to deep cycle batteries for my continuing experimentation. I have learned alot from using the batteries I have, but I think it's time to move up to a battery that is more appropriate for these uses.

Thanks again Tom, and I really appreciate the time you put in here keeping us straight on all this!

-Woody

Woody,

I have restored hundreds of automotive batteries with the 12 volt industrial model charger offered by Energenx. The charger was an earlier model with built in resistive load cycling capability and it would discharge any battery to 9 or 10 volts and charge it up again and it did this automatically a few times before it completed its cycle. The batteries being of the starter or automotive kind could handle a cycle or two of quick and heavy discharges and charges. However if you were to cycle them heavily like this for quite a few cycles then they would not handle that so well, the material on the plates would break down and become mixed in the electrolyte as a brown substance and your capacity would start to go down and not up.

The point is that starter batteries can take some heavy cycling but it can only be short term, a few full cycles, of course each battery is different, some are made better than others and also some are internally in better shape than others etc. Batteries are all different and they all behave differently under identical circumstances, you will have to find a general balance between how many heavy cycle regiments you want to put your automotive batteries through, or any battery for that matter.

I recommend, if you have the time and are not doing this for a living, charge and discharge the batteries at no more than a c-20 rate, for battery longevity, surprisingly you will find that the starter battery, or deep cycle that is to be rejuvenated will still show great improvement with a few gentle charge and discharge cycles and it will be very easy on the battery plates. You could also discharge them at a c-1 rate and easily get away with it a few times, but do not expect to do this over and over while expecting to maintain full capacity in amp hours, your batteries will not last long and will ultimately die a quick death.

In order for a starter or automotive battery to be good for service I would do this, after the rejuvenation period, let the battery stand for a period of time of 2 weeks, to make sure there is not a shorted cell (as it will drain down in voltage in this time). Then if the voltage checked out good, I would put it on a automotive battery load tester that puts it on a high amperage load for 15 seconds, which happens to be 300 amps for a 600 CCA (1/2 the CCA rating), the voltage was not to drop down below 9.6 volts during this 15 second test cycle. I would do this test at least three consecutive times and rechrge the battery before putting it out for resale as a good used reconditioned battery. This seemed to work well and I had very few customer returns, perhaps 5 out of hundreds. I also offered free replacement warranty and sold them for $40.00 each.

The load test described above is the standard automotive starting capacity test and it is not an indicator of complete battery capacity, this test is only good for starter batteries and proves nothing in relation to actual real all out battery capacity in Amp Hours... Just thought I would throw that in to avoid any confusion.

I do not do this much anymore as I have moved on to the study of Tesla/ Bedini tech so my time is limited.

Sorry for the long drawn out post, but I just wanted to give some insight to rejuvenating the standard automotive battery.

Dave Wing

[Dave Wing]

I also want to add if you take a battery down very low in voltage a certain point can be reached where you can get cell reversal of the weakest cell and if you take it any lower more cells could reverse polarity. It may be important to check polarity on each cell by taking a volt meter and checking each cell to make sure polarity is correct. Drain each cell to zero volts and recharge normally, this hopefully will correct the problem.

I have seen some cells on my 10 cell nicad wet cell primary battery, on my SS-SG actually begin to reverse charge, they reached a low voltage point where some of them reversed polarity and they start charging backwards. The reversed polarity cells started boiling (3 out of 10 cells) and the other 7 were powering the SS-SG, the Bedini solid state circuit. The lower the voltage went the more cells began to reverse and boil like mad. I stopped, took a look at the cells, discharged them all and recharged them in the normal polarity. I took note of this and studied the effect of what I had just seen through some experimentation and have yet to reach a proper conclusion of what that fully means... Research is on going with this aspect.

I hear lots of people draining their nicad tool pack batteries prior to putting them back on the charger. I believe this to be potentially a real problem with these battery packs. Some think that these batteries have a memory and therefore need to be close to fully drained after each use to eliminate the battery from developing a charge memory problem. That is a myth do the research on the net, check out NASA, battery university, etc., battery memory is a fraud. When using these tool batteries only take them down in voltage until you sense a decrease in performance, this is a indicator that the battery is going dead, then simply put it on the charger and recharge it. If you try and drain the battery pack to a very low voltage before putting it on the charger you may risk reversing one or some of the cells in the tool pack. This can cause very real problems with these batteries.

To fix these nicads you have to be sure the cell is corrected back to the proper polarity. If your nicads are not getting to the maximum charge voltage there is a good chance that one or a couple of cells reversed, drain all cells to zero volts and recharge. In some or most cases though, a battery that has one or two cells reversed, has had this condition for so long that they become irreparable.

I have no reason to assume this cannot happen to wet acid lead acid batteries as well, so anyone with their experiences I hope they post it here, for more insight.

I know no one asked for all of this write-up but I thought I woulsd share some of my experience and insight in some of the things I have seen, thanks for reading.


Dave wing

[Prinsloo]

Dave

no need to apologies as I think this information is quite relevant, the more information that gets posted help someone else at some stage or another.

Thanks for this info on the Nicads.



Theunis

[caldovicd]

Woody,
I'm just giving an example of where you actually might want to drain a battery below the safe level is if it is ALREADY abused and has been brought down to low voltages. Then, you have to draw it down to at least that level or a bit below then put it on the rejuvenator. Otherwise, you'll never get that sulfation off the plates and the battery will have a weak foundation.
.

So, in another words, heavy sulfated batteries will be desulfated if we discharge battery heavily, right? But, when considering Peter Lindeman's explanation of battery chemical processes when charging and discharging - when discharging battery, plates will add sulfate layers to it; when charging, this sulfate layers comes back to sulphuric acid again. But on the highly sulfated batteries, there are hard core sulfate ares on the plates, which are very difficult to convert to sulphuric acid. You are saying, if I understood correctly, that this hard core sulfates can be removed from the battery plates if we add more sulfate layers on top of existing ones? Maybe I am missing here something? Shouldn't it be way around-to keep charging with SSG until all of sulfate layers comes down from plates?

Thanks,
cald

[Woody]

Woody,

I dont think I mentioned anything about the rejuvenator in my post, I was simply commenting on what peter was working with when he was doing the testing. I have 3 24 volt rejuvenators, well 2 working..... one of them I blew up its getting repaired at energenx right now. so I have no experience with the 12 volt model, I do know the 12 volt ones work well on starter batteries. I want to agree with Aaron on his cycling. honestly I never have worked with batteries as bad as what he is doing, its a great example of what pulse charging and radiant can do to sulphation. the rejuvenators have settings on them that help the microprocessor determine how it should cycle the battery.

Tom C

Tom,

Yeah, I know you hadn't mentioned the rejuvenator in your post, but I had mentioned it in my original post simply because Peter had mentioned it in his discussion. I was just using it's designed bottom discharge voltage of 10.5v as a reference discharge level thinking that if it was designed for that by J.B. then that voltage must be optimum.

Big thanks to everyone who is bringing their knowledge to this thread! I really appreciate it!!

-Woody

[John_Koorn]

So, in another words, heavy sulfated batteries will be desulfated if we discharge battery heavily, right? But, when considering Peter Lindeman's explanation of battery chemical processes when charging and discharging - when discharging battery, plates will add sulfate layers to it; when charging, this sulfate layers comes back to sulphuric acid again. But on the highly sulfated batteries, there are hard core sulfate ares on the plates, which are very difficult to convert to sulphuric acid. You are saying, if I understood correctly, that this hard core sulfates can be removed from the battery plates if we add more sulfate layers on top of existing ones? Maybe I am missing here something? Shouldn't it be way around-to keep charging with SSG until all of sulfate layers comes down from plates?

Thanks,
cald

Hi cald,

As Aaron noted, that is one example that may work. At the end of the day it's all about what the battery wants, or needs, to recover its capacity. Once thing is for certain though - you can't remove sulfation by discharging a battery, only charging it correctly will remove the sulfation.

Think of sulfation as "layers of lead sulfate". Each time you discharge a lead-acid battery a layer of sulfation is left on the plates. If you do not re-charge the battery correctly the layer of sulfation will not be entirely converted back into the electrolyte and some of the sulfation will remain "stuck" to the plates.

Then next time you discharge the battery another layer is added over the top of the previous layer. If you continue this cycle there will be so many layers of sulfation that the battery's capacity will be reduced to a point where there is little active material left on the plates, the battery's internal resistance will increase and the battery will not take a charge. Remember that the voltage of the battery is directly proportional to its internal resistance - this is important.

So when you re-charge the battery and the voltage levels out (assuming your charger is powerful enough to completely charge the battery), it means that the battery cannot accept any more charge and the internal resistance cannot be lowered any further on that charge cycle. If you continue to charge at this point the battery will boil away, venting hydrogen (diluting the electrolyte) and shredding the GOOD active material area of the plates.

At the point the battery where the battery is "charged" it can be safely discharged at the C20 rate to the point of where the voltage rapidly falls off (I call it "over the cliff"). Once the battery reaches this point is vitally important that the battery be re-charged before the sulfation has a chance to "stick" to the plates. Do not wait any longer than it takes for the battery's voltage to stabilize after the load is removed.

Then you repeat the cycle until the battery's capacity will no longer increase. Depending on the battery, this may be more or less than the rated capacity and it may take many, many cycles. As you do each cycle you will notice that the charge termination voltage and discharge termination voltage (the "cliff") will increase as the internal resistance of the battery is lowered.

Notice I did not quote any voltage readings here. That's because every battery is different and will require different treatment to restore its capacity. It's also a long process that takes a lot of time and diligence to get good results. I have taken some useless junk batteries and have used this process to restore the majority of them if they are only sulfated. As an ending note, if the battery is physically damaged - warped plates, shorted cells, etc. don't expect to bring it back to 100%.

John K.