SSG Where the rubber hits the road

[min2oly]

MONOKOTE ECONKOTE
that looks like it would work well w/ a heat gun, I Think I still need to cover the magnets. I still feel quite a bit of air being pushed around even w/ a slow 170rpm...

Bob and all,
Here is one way I like to get to two spikes:

Kind Regards,
Patrick A.

[guyzzemf]

too late Pat but if you ever want to cover wheel with something super light and strong no glue all you need is the wifes iron use what we use to cover rc glider wings its great MONOKOTE ECONKOTE http://www.monokote.com/econokote.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMBnV7pitMI

[guyzzemf]

Bob i hear you loud and clear ; because iv been there
Pat that is just what i mean

I am only referring to taking the SSG into solid state mode, by taking the bottom of the trigger winding, removing it from the primary neg and placing it to the primary +.

iv read how to use hall ic not ready to do yet but i see why or why it can multi spike with a hall trigger
right now im just trying to figger [in my head] a way to fire transistor with no multi spike and get the full gain
staying in safe operating area of trane-soa i cross this river b4 it got deep then not so deep 2 me now
if this gets too far of topic i;ll start a new A CLEAN TRIGGER as some of threads end up there
with no transformer effect
tuneable spike/amp draw

[min2oly]

quick post... Removing more resistance:

Need more time to read/answer ?'s be back soon...
Kind Regards,
Patrick

[BobZilla]

PS to all, and last time I'll bring it up... how do you GET to two spikes?

Patrick I'm not sure what you are getting at? I know that you know how to tune so what exactly are you asking for here?

My basic procedure is to set my gap, I like a wide gap because all we really want the earth magnet to do is induce the trigger voltage so I like it far back a bit. Of course your gap also determines where your 1 spike, 2 spike etc.. will fall into place. Gap and resistance both affect it.

Once you have a ball park get the spikes where you want them. I do not have an o scope so I am more accustomed to looking at my timing light which shows both directions and I can just tell by looking at the width on the spokes. As was already mentioned I like the spot about half way between spike changes so I will tune to there and look at my draw. Depending on the primary I am using I will make sure that the primary can handle the draw at a C20 or greater. If it cannot then I will adjust the gap a bit in or out (most likely in) to reduce my draw.

I'm having a hard time explaining this actually because I just know what I'm looking for and adjust. Basically what I am saying is you can affect your draw and spike by moving the coil in or out.

So for two spikes I would ball park the gap, check the draw, if it is too much, adjust the gap and maybe a smidgen of adjustment on the pot. Put another way I can achieve 2 spikes right in the middle drawing say 700ma OR re adjust the gap and the POT and run in the same middle spike range at 1A or where ever I need to be.

Yea I am doing terrible job of explaining myself, Perhaps if I made a video I could make more sense instead of babbling. Bottom line is it all starts with the gap.

Speaking of Solid state, I just built a new one ;-) I am going to make a new post tomorrow about it so anyone interested keep your eye out for it. The new one is a two coil setup each has 4 18AWG power + trigger so 8 power winds in all.

[min2oly]

Hi Guy, I think your hall trigger experiment is different than anything I've heard of. I would like to see or hear about it.

I am only referring to taking the SSG into solid state mode, by taking the bottom of the trigger winding, removing it from the primary neg and placing it to the primary +.

I think what you are talking about using the hall is completely different. I was not using a hall w/ the pendulum. What we did was place many different sized and shaped magnets and cores to see what their interaction w/ the transistor would be. easy when you only have one magnet. Results, the bigger the magnet in relation to the core, the more spikes there are - or to say it another way, the longer the magnet was passing the core at the right speed of course, the more spikes.... plain and simple, more time to interact w/ the magnet.

Hope your weekend is going well,
Patrick A.

PS to all, and last time I'll bring it up... how do you GET to two spikes?

PAT please say more about this or point me to a thread or video as i miss a couple years getting to know my local hospital
to do the test i want i need a o scope but what i want to see has been done by accident and trial and error
i just got to look
so the pendulum gave you multi spikes a hall powered trigger i need to set up or learn how you tune a hall trigger i go read
i going to guess that [better not guess]
guy

[guyzzemf]

So, of course they influence each other, however the coil discharge is in the wrong direction to influence the base of the transistor. so through the output diode it goes...

of course when coil magnet field collapse it inducts to the trigger as Bob and Gary showed and stated B Bob had the timing led on the trigger / not having a scope you have to note which way you hook up led on the trigger to know that its inverted or it should fire the transistor again

In order to go into a “controlled” solid state mode, we need to move the trigger from primary – to primary +.

PAT please say more about this or point me to a thread or video as i miss a couple years getting to know my local hospital
to do the test i want i need a o scope but what i want to see has been done by accident and trial and error
i just got to look
so the pendulum gave you multi spikes a hall powered trigger i need to set up or learn how you tune a hall trigger i go read
i going to guess that [better not guess]
guy

Originally Posted by Bobzilla on the http://www.energyscienceforum.com/sh...ll=1#post11738
Where that turns out to be within each setting is actually to bring it to speed where it is transitioning from more spikes to less and then go about half way up from there to the next shift. So say it is seeing three spikes and I dial it up to two,, ok at that point if I back off half of the way between the two than that is just about right. Don’t know if that makes sense but it is just something that can be observed when standing in front of the machine and listening to what is going on.

I could run it at the bare minimum to keep in a particular spike range but I have found that the charging is much better if I give it that little bit extra. The return for adding a little draw seems to be much greater than trying to conserve it. If I had a scope to look at I assume that the spikes are gaining a lot of amplitude in that small tuning window.

this is how i tuned but i used a fix res i never did output charts with a time factor [well in did mentally
that is a good thread http://www.energyscienceforum.com/sh...ll=1#post11738
I THINK people miss ,or i was not clear in the old yahoo group i sure it was me

[min2oly]

Both are in phase (but inverted)

Hi Gary,
That's a good experiment, what goes on in my head doesn't always come out of my mouth or fingers :-)

So, of course they influence each other, however the coil discharge is in the wrong direction to influence the base of the transistor. so through the output diode it goes...

Now once we change impedances and do all kinds of high speed high voltage and mismatching of various things all bets are off.

Kind Regards,
Patrick

[Gary Hammond]

Hi Patrick, Bob, & Guy

IMHO – the collapsing field of the power winding does not go into the trigger with this wheel.

In these 12 volt systems w/ a good battery or capdump, I believe although the radiant flows everywhere, we have opened a path for the conventional current to be corralled and allowed to flow through those charging diodes on to the battery or cap. This can change if we add undesirable impedance. Put a scope across the trigger and you can see why I think this is so. I do not see any interaction. The collapse is in a different direction than the base of the transistor needs to turn on. In order to go into a “controlled” solid state mode, we need to move the trigger from primary – to primary +.
...........................

Patrick A.

I just hooked my "o" scope up to my rotored SSG with channel 1 hooked to the collector and channel 2 hooked to the trigger winding where it connects to the branch resistor. The signal ground is to the primary battery negative. The trigger trace is basically a mirror image of the transistor output (collector) trace. Both are in phase (but inverted), both are the same amplitude, and both show high voltage spikes at the moment of transistor turnoff. They are not exact mirror images, but they are pretty close! If one is giving two pulses per magnet pass both are doing it. And if only one pulse per magnet pass both traces show only one pulse.

However, without any batteries attached and just giving the wheel a spin by hand, the wave form across any of the coils is the same slightly distorted sine wave shape at the same small amplitude except inverted in the trigger winding. (one to one ratio).

My conclusion is that the power windings inductive collapses are very much going into the trigger windings just like Erfinder said. It looks to me like the entire wave form of the power windings is inductively coupled to the trigger winding. And I further think that the amount of core saturation at any given frequency determines the number of pulses per magnet pass.

P.S. I also seem to get slightly faster charging with two pulses/magnet when in conventional radiant mode as compared to one pulse/magnet. And of course running in charge mode gives a much quicker charge. (There is only one long pulse/magnet in charge mode.)

[min2oly]

8-tgb

Here we go...

Thanks for the wakeup call guys. I got so busy tuning I forgot how to tune!
This is just a quicky. I've completed a few more runs w/ different batteries as well as using an external force to slow the wheel.

Thanks for the help with this - do not hesitate to offer up any ideas.

Guy - I like your butler, can't wait to hear your results hunting down spiky.

on measuring:
What about placing an amp meter on the input then on the output, have a cap dump to another cap, place a load on that final cap w/ another meter in line? Just thinking as I type...
Have a great weekend all,
Patrick A.

[min2oly]

In terms of this wheel and 12 volts.

IMHO – the collapsing field of the power winding does not go into the trigger with this wheel.

In these 12 volt systems w/ a good battery or capdump, I believe although the radiant flows everywhere, we have opened a path for the conventional current to be corralled and allowed to flow through those charging diodes on to the battery or cap. This can change if we add undesirable impedance. Put a scope across the trigger and you can see why I think this is so. I do not see any interaction. The collapse is in a different direction than the base of the transistor needs to turn on. In order to go into a “controlled” solid state mode, we need to move the trigger from primary – to primary +.

OK Patrick so why does the ckt go into self-oscillation when you have too much resistance on the base, or impedance mismatch in the coils, etc...? I’m not even going to try to answer this one for risk of contradicting myself :-)

Guy is right, you can put a switching diode E/B (emitter to base) and the ckt will self-oscillate based on the diode specs and Single wire coil you are using. That’s right one wind – no trigger other than the switching diode.

The pendulum allowed us to change many things on the fly to experiment with. One thing we played around with was the magnet. The larger the magnet the more spikes you get independent from the speed and distance from the core. One job of the E/B diode is to turn the transistor off, however, it can only fend off the energy from the passing magnet for so long. That’s why I was not able to tune the wheel to 1 spike earlier. When I pulled the coil away from the wheel, the magnet was not allowed to influence the trigger long enough to prevent me from getting it down to 1 spike.

I think this is all very relevant to this thread as well as Bobs thread. I think this is where tuning falls apart and most lose hope with the wheel or maybe I’m just projecting here…

Ok more fussy tuning stuff. JB giving us the light bulb worked out for a couple of good reasons. It’s a great self-servo addition to the ckt for those w/ little primaries (sorry it’s true). We all know, however, there is more than one way to skin a cat... the bulb helps keep the ckt in tune as the primary voltage decreases during a run. He also knew many of us would not have a scope.

good morning all or good night?
Patrick A.

[guyzzemf]

Patrick ,Bob all
first i think this thread is going where pat wants it [i like ; im sure pat will rain us in if not

Anyone watching my new machine thread knows I have been playing around with 2 spike, one spike, three spike to see the differences. When we setup for one spike it seems to me that that is the true spike produced from the induction triggering mechanism. When we get more spikes I think it is the circuit going into self oscillation for a brief time , probably the power winding inducting across the trigger and re-opening the base.

i like the the thinking there .now if it is self oscillation for a brief time as it seems to be, it reacts to base changes as a solid state dose . now what happen to me and pat we got a transistor to self oscillate with no trigger just the e to b diode
so there was a trigger path ,so the question is what is oscillating in solid state [resonating ] .The coil for sure with what
the input? i dont think the its trigger winding always but i do think its the trigger here because the way it responds to base- trigger resistance .It also has to do with [imho] that the transistor not turning off all the way [in comes the n14001 e to b diode . i can think of at least 2-3 test i want to do need to pull out the butler;my vanilla ssg 1.test spikes per mag
pass with /with out n14001 e to b diode with at diff resistor values 2.open gap coil 3.4.open /close magnet spacing
the trigger may not be oscillating but it lets it happen and if that is true then there must be a min currant to full turn on
and get full gain and a clean off a clean note [if you will] if not the transistor run over it self never full on or off;multi spike
now i did some test with ss and got it to where it would not start self- R unless i put a magnet on the coil
for a sec. that fits s
so the coil and transistor are oscillating but many things change the frec. bat size base res. type of transistor coil/wire size
Bob you said some good things 1 don't change a thing in a run i think a lot of people got poor results because of playing with the pot .pots hunt burn up there only few base resistors to use any way 0 to 1.5 k usually 0 to 600
Pat i use a led to get to 1 pules
AL i loved the saying [let the magic smoke out ]been there done that. now ill go to sleep wake up and disagree with myself and or have may more question to ask my self/// i;ll dream of tank circuits .Tom
guy
edit Has anyone put a hall triggered transistor in self resonance and if so dose a hall trigger multi spike
i cant believe i dont know; dose a hall [trigger multi spike ] the answer is all telling
better sleep 4-b I question myself into a loop

[BobZilla]

Yup those are Toms coils and holders which I recommend to anyone reading. Most of my early builds were wound out in the yard with a drill and honestly I skipped the litz most of the time lol. I like all the stuff Tom is offering but to have such nice coils available at a very reasonable price I think is HUGE for our little community.

Generally speaking about spikes I have found that it all depends on the machine and the battery you are trying to charge. For that 2 coiler I can easily charge garden batteries all the way down on 4 spikes well I used to, I have reconfigured that machine with a 7 winding single coil) But anyway it really depends on your load as to what you can get away with. I can get some good charging even on my 100AH on 3 spikes BUT at the end it wont peak at 15.5, it will only take it to high 14's so if I want to bring it up I will loosen the pot and go into 1 spike and it shoots right up. I think that is more having to do with the smidgen of current that you need to carry the charge, one spike will give just a bit more.

I don't think there is any firm rule to say one spike is best , or two spikes is best, it all really depends on what your working with.

[min2oly]

I've got another vid out there w/ a small rotor on using the 2 leds to explain that. I thought I might confuse myself and any others if I tried to talk about it now - LOL

Say nice thread I remember following it, it's good to go back and read. those are Tom's coil holders, yes? I think Guy is touching more on what is going on w/ the battery vs coil in relation to "echo" and number of spikes. I'm not sure if anyone touched on that. I do like your thorough rundown of 1 spike vs 2 spikes. did you ever get to 3? or did I miss it...
The big question is still, how do YOU get to 2...
gotta run...
Thanks,
Patrick A.

Nice video Patrick. I really like how you are bringing the basics back to one place for people who may not know some of the tricks. One piece of advice, if you get a blue and a red LED and hook them in opposite polarity you can catch the charge and the discharge across the coil. That is how I like to make my timing lights. I don't have a scope though so for you it is less relevant. Keep up the good work man!

Guy we had a little conversation about this in one of my threads. Not trying to divert away from Patricks thread here but at the bottom of page three I stated what I thought was going on and some others chimed in on the thread too. You might find it interesting. I also shot some boring video switching between 2 and one spike with a meter hooked up.

http://www.energyscienceforum.com/sh...?t=1258&page=3

[min2oly]

I'm interested to hear your thoughts on this Guy. I'm not much for theory on what is happening only the results I get.

I know John B ran his one coil 7 transistor bike wheel w/ 2 spikes on DVD 7, and he ran his 10 coiler w/ 1 spike in DVD 2. I've been running on 2 spikes today, currently on my second run using John K's 1hour method... first run was @ .90 (w/ no other changes from the runs that were giving me .80) we'll see where the next run goes...

Question is how do YOU get it to 2...

Not there yet on my vid line up, still doing runs and tuning, and clean up - and I have to work.
Kind Regards,
Patrick A.

quote

ditto
ok Patrick [ALL] what is happening to cause it to have multi spikes .spike echo? trigger echo ? coil-battery echo?
battery to battery echo. is a echo at all. is it acting like a solid state but only real slow ? different thread but related what is resonating . and why what why its better one spike than many
guy