SSG Where the rubber hits the road

[min2oly]

I think maybe there are two different conversations going on here?

one is how or when does a battery take on a full charge. so by looking at a charge curve from say 12.2V to 15V, there is a point where the charge vs time curve changes dramatically, this is when the graph line begins to shoot up, and where I think battery is close to charged, Mr Bedini has some vids showing this curve I think Bob has a couple of charts as well.
IMHO a battery will take on this straight vanilla radiant charge better after it has been cycled cycled a few times to the higher voltages.

So the method I'm proposing here (which is really a spin off of John K's advice) is, after completing the above and you know you have a good battery, then do the 2 hour cycle's to "prove" to yourself OU. You can do this before, however, I've always had better results after the complete cycles.
disclaimer... this should not be relevant if you are using a cap dump.

This has been one of things troubling me about tuning my SSG.

Here is a quick run I just did to illustrate partially what I think Bob is getting at... Correct me if I'm wrong Bob.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]3548[/ATTACH]

I increase the current, it increases where the charge curve "sits" but the curves are basically parallel to each other. This is especially obvious when hitting point O and P in a usual charge since at 12Ohms I will hit point O at 13.7V but with no base resistance it hits point O at 14V for example. So using the COP testing method John K suggested to you earlier leaves me cold, since any gain from lower base resistance is met with higher current draw and visa versa . Coil gap is much the same.

I'm sure there is a tuned spot but identifying it is obviously tricky for me at least, although I don't do myself any favors by getting impatient and changing my wheel's magnets blah de blah all the time

I am going to try your method Patrick and see how it goes.

[jelloir]

This has been one of things troubling me about tuning my SSG.

Here is a quick run I just did to illustrate partially what I think Bob is getting at... Correct me if I'm wrong Bob.



I increase the current, it increases where the charge curve "sits" but the curves are basically parallel to each other. This is especially obvious when hitting point O and P in a usual charge since at 12Ohms I will hit point O at 13.7V but with no base resistance it hits point O at 14V for example. So using the COP testing method John K suggested to you earlier leaves me cold, since any gain from lower base resistance is met with higher current draw and visa versa . Coil gap is much the same.

I'm sure there is a tuned spot but identifying it is obviously tricky for me at least, although I don't do myself any favors by getting impatient and changing my wheel's magnets blah de blah all the time

I am going to try your method Patrick and see how it goes.

[min2oly]

Hi Bob,
I think I am confused, it sounds like you're saying that it is the input/output current that should determine how a given battery charges, and depending on the current and the charge battery size/condition this will determine the charge curve?
I'll have to think on your words a bit more.

my thought is that it is ALL about the potential/voltage and the only time current comes into play is when I test the output of the charge battery. I'm always pushing as little current as possible.

I know what you are talking about with the charge curve, that's when you know your battery has reached it's full potential - ba-da-bum-psh... hehe This is not, however, where I have had my most efficient results. mine come at the 90% charge line this is the one I've been exploring most.

Guys the voltage will be relative to the current pushed on it. Batteries with sulphation may not go high but once you have a clean battery it will raise up to 16.5 and higher IF you are pushing that hard on it.


Patrick I think with your new one what happened is it had a little sulphation but you quickly cleared it up and now it is a good clean battery. Decrease the power a bit and it will peak at 16v or 15.5v or wherever you want it to. I see a lot of people obsessing on voltage but it is relative to how you run your machine and the size of the battery,what really counts is the curve. The voltage is just a indirect look at the current being imposed it will rise and fall as you change the current. Take the fully charged battery and make adjustments and you will see this very easily.

A smaller battery takes less current to raise it up so if you were to tune to 16.5 on a good garden battery and then swap out for a larger battery it will peak lower because of the current distribution although both are fully charged. If you ran charts on both batteries the shape of the curve would be very similar but the smaller battery would level at 16.5 and the larger maybe 15.5 under the same tune.

Hopefully this makes sense but maybe not. using charts and different batteries has shown me exactly how that works.

[BobZilla]

Guys the voltage will be relative to the current pushed on it. Batteries with sulphation may not go high but once you have a clean battery it will raise up to 16.5 and higher IF you are pushing that hard on it.


Patrick I think with your new one what happened is it had a little sulphation but you quickly cleared it up and now it is a good clean battery. Decrease the power a bit and it will peak at 16v or 15.5v or wherever you want it to. I see a lot of people obsessing on voltage but it is relative to how you run your machine and the size of the battery,what really counts is the curve. The voltage is just a indirect look at the current being imposed it will rise and fall as you change the current. Take the fully charged battery and make adjustments and you will see this very easily.

A smaller battery takes less current to raise it up so if you were to tune to 16.5 on a good garden battery and then swap out for a larger battery it will peak lower because of the current distribution although both are fully charged. If you ran charts on both batteries the shape of the curve would be very similar but the smaller battery would level at 16.5 and the larger maybe 15.5 under the same tune.

Hopefully this makes sense but maybe not. using charts and different batteries has shown me exactly how that works.

[min2oly]

Hi James,
I don't know if that is the test for a "good" battery. I've never NOT been able to get a battery to 16.5V. This battery was the first. It gets there now though. I've heard of others taking batteries down to those levels as a method to "break them in" I don't think a battery needs to be taken to 16.5 although Peter mentions it should once in a while... I haven't read his book, Aaron M. mentioned it in a post somewhere.

regarding COP testing - I've given up taking the battery to a full charge. That has NEVER worked well for me. My best results are when I let the battery show me where it wants to produce OU results.

charge the bat to whatever max charge you can, then...
discharge 2 hours "x"amps - charge for 2 hours "x"amps - rest, take voltage.
repeat until the battery voltage stabilizes. if the battery never goes down then you have a winner - start playing around w/ taking more than you put in. if the battery drops to 12 volts, more work needs to be done.

hope this makes sense, writing on the run...
KR,
Patrick

Hi Patrick, I'm COP testing amongst other things at the moment as well, I'm wondering if the new batteries I bought are up to snuff as I have hit a wall with my COP testing... Should a good battery reach 16.5V? Mine reaches the "knee" at about 15.3v but to get to 16V would take time, I have pushed it to about 15.8V but that was by using no base resistance and pummeling the battery.

Coincidentally I decided to pull it right down to 11.9V (had been taking it to 12.2V previously) and charge it up again. It's currently at 15.3V so I'll just keep pushing it and see where it ends up this run.

James

[jelloir]

Hi Patrick, I'm COP testing amongst other things at the moment as well, I'm wondering if the new batteries I bought are up to snuff as I have hit a wall with my COP testing... Should a good battery reach 16.5V? Mine reaches the "knee" at about 15.3v but to get to 16V would take time, I have pushed it to about 15.8V but that was by using no base resistance and pummeling the battery.

Coincidentally I decided to pull it right down to 11.9V (had been taking it to 12.2V previously) and charge it up again. It's currently at 15.3V so I'll just keep pushing it and see where it ends up this run.

James

[min2oly]

Hi All,
so I broke down and purchased the best garden battery off the shelf at fred meyer's. I took my impedance meter w/ me and inspected the batteries they had closely, opening them all. I'm getting very nice runs, better than w/ the toyota battery.

Something I never had happen w/ all my used battery's or my brand new SLAB's. This garden battery came at 12.50 volts. I put it on the wheel and it would not break 15V on the first charge. I left it on there for 2 days! I finally pulled it off and drained it to 12.2 w/ a bounce back to 12.35-ish. I repeated this and on the 4th charge cycle it reached 16.5V.
Cool stuff!
spinning away...
Patrick A.

[min2oly]

Aaron M did a nice job a while back showing how to use a scope across a resister to measure amps. I can’t fine the thread but it’s here somewhere. It’s definitely something to keep in mind and a good point to bring up. Sometimes I just take the work I’ve done in the past for granted. I used a scope to verify my meters a while back. The RadioShack meter I show in the vids happens to be very accurate some others are not.
TinselKoala does a nice job in this vid so I won’t bother duplicating:

Good stuff


Also, in JB’s vid w/ the SG small cap dump, that’s kind of the direction I’m headed. His suggestion of measuring joules by amp pulses gets more complicated than I’d like, however. I’ll get there, still plugging away.
KR,
Patrick A

[BobZilla]

Really good work Patrick, thanks for sharing!

I know what you mean about babysitting those 1hr cycles. I started to try that on my new setup and it went ok for awhile but then I goofed it up, hence we have not seen those types of runs from me yet.

Most people have no idea just how much effort it takes to do a controlled experiment like that.

I look for any input on anything I might not be considering in the data and/or method I've posted.

The only thing I could say playing devils advocate here is that the primary draw and the load draw are not exactly equal . What I am saying is the machine is running a pulse load but the bulbs run a constant load. Nothing to really do about that and it is not unique to your machine, we all have that issue. It could be significant though, all those little milliseconds between magnet passes would add up over the long view. With that said their is nothing really we can do about that and your work is fantastic.

[Allen R.]

Hi Patrick. Thanks for all you have already shared. It's enough challenge to adjust the ssg properly plus you are producing and editing video to go with it. That is a whole other job itself to do right. Many thanks for choosing to spend Your time sharing with everyone.

Don't let the naysayers and disrupters that always come out when you show numbers that are beyond their "impossible to break" barrier irritate You. I know they will start in with their mess.

I wonder if something similar to what John B. did with the small comparator on the original bike wheel ssg machine would help you take a "snapshot" cop measurement. http://youtu.be/TRLVhKzamUE He makes a comment about us figuring out the numbers on its effieciency. Maybe something similar would work. Out of my league here just thinking.

Im up to my eyeballs in work but I always watch the vids and read. I wanna checkout Bobzilla's solid state stuff if I can get the time.

many thanks

al

[guyzzemf]

Pat
i dont u to be a slave to SSG Marcia said to me a long time ago that if ,say your pulling 1.5 amps to get a full charge say in 12 hrs
when your discharge at 1,5 amps if the discharge goes past 12 hr its 1 to 1 or better .[of course to same ending voltage for both batts]
guy

so to do this batteries need to be the same

[min2oly]

Hi Aln,
Thanks! I have to admit, the runs were getting kind of boring and monotonous. When the first results were in after the "3" changes. It made me focus and pay very serious attention. I measured the input both at the beginning of each run and at the end, to be sure I was not being fooled by some anomaly. I thought for sure, I had made some mistake. I'm still continueing the runs and am on the hunt for a more "instant" measuring method. I have a few in mind requiring a cap dump and measuring the joules out at that point. I'm almost there, just need to smooth it out some.

I look for any input on anything I might not be considering in the data and/or method I've posted.
Kind Regards,
Patrick A

Patrick,
Beautiful work. Thank you for the time you put in. You mentioned:

"I had the diode backward and blew a transistor."

Has happened to me a few times, and when we were corresponding last year is why I was having some trouble with transistors on my little 3pmp kit. Even JB drew it backwards on DVD 33 half way through, then corrected it at the end.

Looks like you doubled your $ on this one.

Aln

[aln]

Patrick,
Beautiful work. Thank you for the time you put in. You mentioned:

"I had the diode backward and blew a transistor."

Has happened to me a few times, and when we were corresponding last year is why I was having some trouble with transistors on my little 3pmp kit. Even JB drew it backwards on DVD 33 half way through, then corrected it at the end.

Looks like you doubled your $ on this one.

Aln

[min2oly]

The experiment:
Using a modification of John K’s 1 hour measurement; I charged the Toyota True Start to 16 volts 3 times, each time draining it back down to 12 volts prior to beginning this experiment.

Next – on the fourth drain to 12 volts, I then charged to 13.50 w/ 512mA draw from the primary. This took a long time which is not relevant other than to know it got a nice slow charge all the way to 13.5V.

Next – I let it rest overnight, in the morning it had settled to 12.83

Now I have a “clean” reference starting point:
Each drain off the charging will be at 565mA and each draw from the primary will be at 516mA we will then see where the resting voltage drifts…

Drain 1 hour w/ 5.65mA Let rest 1 hour - 12.74V
Put on SSG 1 hour, drain 1 hour, let rest 1 hour - 12.70V
Put on SSG 1 hour, drain 1 hour, let rest 1 hour - 12.71V
Put on SSG 1 hour, drain 1 hour, let rest 1 hour - 12.70V
Put on SSG 1 hour, drain 1 hour, let rest 1 hour - 12.68V
Put on SSG 1 hour, drain 1 hour, let rest 1 hour - 12.69V

Ok at this point I change the draw and drain for reasons I explained in the video…
Draw from primary 400mA Drain from charging 400mA

Put on SSG 1 hour, drain 1 hour, let rest 1 hour - 12.70V
Put on SSG 1 hour, drain 1 hour, let rest 1 hour - 12.69V
Put on SSG 1 hour, drain 1 hour, let rest 1 hour - 12.71V
Put on SSG 1 hour, drain 1 hour, let rest 1 hour - 12.70V


So this is where I filmed last and now where I adjust 3 things.

1. Change to 2 hour increments. Charge 2 drain 2 rest 2
2. Moved the pickup coil farther way 3/4”
3. Changed to Neg2Neg mode
4. Oh kind of one more I retuned a bit 440mA in and 450mA drain


Started by draining an additional hour for a total of 2 then rest overnight – 12.68V
Put on SSG-NN 2 hours, drain 2 hours, let rest 2 hours - 12.73V
Put on SSG-NN 2 hours, drain 2 hours, let rest 2 hours - 12.83V
Put on SSG-NN 2 hours, drain 2 hours, let rest 2 hours - 12.89V
Put on SSG-NN 2 hours, drain 4 hours, let rest 2 hours - 12.69V

I should note, when I first switched to Neg2Neg mod, I had the diode backward and blew a transistor. So these last runs were completed w/ 7 transistors 7 power winds.

That sound you hear is me dropping the mic.

I will not make a video showing or expressing any of these results. I will continue w/ this thread. IMHO I just found what this battery needed in terms of charging.
KR,
Patrick

[min2oly]

Meanwhile back at the ranch, Patrick has been busy running away w/ the 8-TGB wheel.

Not much to report at this point. I've changed up a couple of things on the methodology of the experiment. I'm keeping in mind that I want solid conclusive results based on the wheel, the coil, the 2 batteries, and the 8-TGB. At this point I am not adding the pickup coil to a 2nd charging battery to the results, nore am I making any modifications to the ckt.

Plain VANILLA

This is what is put forth in the books and DVD's, so this is the only data I am interested in pursuing for now. In the last video I showed by lowering the amp in and out and adjusting the drag on the wheel I was getting 1:1 vanilla. I'll continue to make small tweaks and report back.
KR,
Patrick