Gary's "Complete Advanced" SSG Build

[Gary Hammond]

Hi Rodolphe,

I also was looking into UF4007. At least their RRT time is WAY faster… the downside is that they have a forward voltage (FV) of 1.7V (instead of 1.1V for the 1N4007), which I would assume has have a negative effect on the COP.

When harvesting a 50 to 100 volt spike an extra 6/10 volt drop would have very little, if any, effect on the COP. The faster switching speed, however, should cause the voltage to spike up to a higher level. In my understanding the faster switching speed will far outweigh any small voltage loss in the switching device.

You mentioned that you had Bedini SG with UF4007. Did the faster switching speed of the UF4007 yield a net positive result on the COP (over the negative higher FV of the UF4007)?

I have no way of knowing for sure because all my devices are configured differently from each other. It is my assumption, however, that the UF4007 diodes will give a better overall result than the slower switching 1N4007 diodes in any particular device. Both will work, but I only use the UF4007 on any new builds. I've also built some devices using FETs instead of transistors for switching the power circuits which lowers the voltage drop before the coil and results in higher primary current and higher voltage when the coil discharges. I've also used mostly hall effect devices and mechanical timing to trigger the FETs instead of using a trigger winding on the coil. I've blown a few FETs, but this approach has given me better results when I get the Hall triggering circuit right.

I also talked briefly with nick about Schottky diodes, C4D02120A. They are supposed to be even faster, but have FV range 1.4-1.9V… In case your UF yielded a net positive result on the COP, I think these Schottky might be a next thing to try, but since the FV is a range, would they need to be matched, like the Transistors?

I don't think they would have to be matched because the FV is such a small percentage of the discharge voltage you are trying to capture. This is a high voltage low current capture so FV would have little affect here. However, any unnecessary FV in the power switching device (transistor or FET) would cause unwanted heat and also lower the current into the coil primary windings as this is a low voltage high current situation.

Then there is the 1N5408 for the CG mode (or two in parallel, since I matched what you had), but here should have the same ON semiconductor versions as you have. Also here I contacted the supplier to ask for the SOT and RRT times, in case they are slower than the 1N4007 values, I assume that you machine could yield more output still if this would be the case, that is in the version where you still use them, since you also told me you removed them in another version, depending on the voltage difference in the input/output batteries.

The reason I used 1N5408s here was to get higher current carrying capacity and to block any reverse flow when the voltage difference between the run and charge batteries is to large. Schottky diodes might work better here as they are much faster switching than the 1N5408s.

Gary I have a feeling that this might be the issue in my machine… too slow/cheap 1N4007 diodes… makes at least a lot of sense from a logical point of view, taking everything into account we’ve discussed and tried so far.

What do you think???

That is a possibility.

regards,
Gary Hammond,

[pearldragon]

Hi Gary,

Diodes, Diodes, Diodes…

Nick made me aware of the ‘switch on time’ (SOT) of the diodes 1N4007 (and the 1N5408 in CG mode as well I guess). Most of the specsheet don’t specify it, but some do specify the ‘Reverse recovery time’ (RRT), which also plays a role in the efficiency I assume.
We talked briefly about the diodes in post #111 and #113. When you said:

The 1N4007 diodes being the same would be the most critical

I interpretated that as being the same type -> 1N4007… but had never looked into specs like SOT and RRT.
I asked TGX if they could tell me which exact diodes they used (and sent to you in the kit), so I can try to figure out what the SOT and RRT specs are.
I looked at the spec sheet of the ones I have, but it is a cheap Chinese brand, not mentioned. I sent an e-mail to the manufacturer but doubt if I’ll get a reply.

Apart from 1N4007 diodes that match or surpass the SOT & RRT specs of the ones you have, I also was looking into UF4007. At least their RRT time is WAY faster… the downside is that they have a forward voltage (FV) of 1.7V (instead of 1.1V for the 1N4007), which I would assume has have a negative effect on the COP. You mentioned that you had Bedini SG with UF4007. Did the faster switching speed of the UF4007 yield a net positive result on the COP (over the negative higher FV of the UF4007)?

I also talked briefly with nick about Schottky diodes, C4D02120A. They are supposed to be even faster, but have FV range 1.4-1.9V… In case your UF yielded a net positive result on the COP, I think these Schottky might be a next thing to try, but since the FV is a range, would they need to be matched, like the Transistors?

Then there is the 1N5408 for the CG mode (or two in parallel, since I matched what you had), but here should have the same ON semiconductor versions as you have. Also here I contacted the supplier to ask for the SOT and RRT times, in case they are slower than the 1N4007 values, I assume that you machine could yield more output still if this would be the case, that is in the version where you still use them, since you also told me you removed them in another version, depending on the voltage difference in the input/output batteries.
Gary I have a feeling that this might be the issue in my machine… too slow/cheap 1N4007 diodes… makes at least a lot of sense from a logical point of view, taking everything into account we’ve discussed and tried so far.

What do you think???

Best regards,
Rodolphe

[Gary Hammond]

Hi Rodolphe,

A thing to double check; you used all standard compo 1N4007 diodes on your PCB correct? And not faster ones like UF4007, correct?

Correct. I used the 1N4007 diodes that came with the kit.

All the later devices I've built I used the faster UF4007 diodes; but the one shown on my home page, which you're trying to match, still has all the original components and still runs like it always did.

Gary Hammond,

[pearldragon]

Hi Gary,
Ok, great. I think this would be a better and cheaper option for now than the shipping over the batteries.

I could send you the parts this weekend, or otherwise next weekend and then they should arrive well in time.

A thing to double check; you used all standard compo 1N4007 diodes on your PCB correct? And not faster ones like UF4007, correct?
http://www.teslagenx.com/kits/tx-sg8.html?category=kits

Nick just told me that for now he is too busy to do the presentation, but I might still do it.

Best Regards,
Rodolphe

[Gary Hammond]

Hi Rodolphe,

How About I send you my old PCB (soldered w. components) with my old core/coil? Maybe you could try those parts on your machine with some of your batteries?
I’m also not so sure that that is going to show a difference, but at least it will be a cheaper option and will at least 100% eliminate the coil/core and the PCB, of which the PCB would be the most interesting one… What are your thoughts on this?

I think I could do that without damaging my machine. I currently have some 12AH batteries I could use to first test with my coil and circuit, and then test with your coil and circuit for a direct comparison. I will not be able to do this between December 25, 2022 and April 7, 2023 due to other commitments during that time span. So either before or after that would work for me.

Doing a joint presentation with Nick sounds like a good idea to me. Keep us posted if this happens. Joining with a group of like-minded experimenters is always interesting when you can share results and new ideas to try.

Gary Hammond,

[pearldragon]

Hi Gary,

I’ve been considering my previous idea regarding the batteries from the USA a bit more, and since you, myself and another guy here from the Netherlands* who I had some contact with*, are all not so convinced that the batteries are going to make the difference, I’m now contemplating the following:
As you know I ordered a while ago from TGX a new coil/core, new PCB, transistors matched bij TGX, etc. But when I build that in, it didn’t make much of a difference. How About I send you my old PCB (soldered w. components) with my old core/coil? Maybe you could try those parts on your machine with some of your batteries?
I’m also not so sure that that is going to show a difference, but at least it will be a cheaper option and will at least 100% eliminate the coil/core and the PCB, of which the PCB would be the most interesting one…

What are your thoughts on this?

Furthermore I’ve been in contact with some people here organizing FE events/gatherings to ask if they knew experimenters with Bedini SG, they replied that people were involved with it years ago, 2009. But they asked if I want to do a presentation on the Bedini SG on the next event, trying to rejuvenate the interest… I’m considering it, contacting also the other dutch guy* see if we can do a presentation together.

*https://emediapress.com/shop/the-rob...tor-generator/

Best regards,
Rodolphe

[pearldragon]

Hi Gary,

Once again, thanks you so much for your willingness to go through this battery-shipping-hassle with me . Let's hold the pause button just for a little longer. Since you're also not immediately convinced that the batteries will yield my missing 30%, I'd like to try to get in contact with some people who might also have an opinion/have some suggestions.

I'll be in touch.

Best regards,
Rodolphe

[Gary Hammond]

Hi Rodolphe,

What are your thoughts on this?

I will be surprised if batteries from the USA make much difference, but I'm willing to help you find out.

P.S. are you in contact with RS at all, or only here on the forum when he responds?

I don't think RS has been on the forum for quite a while now. I haven't had any other contact with him either.

[pearldragon]

Hi Gary,

Thanks so much for being willing to help me with this! Really!
The shipping costs I’ll look into once we decide to put this idea into action, update you about it, and transfer you the money. (but if we get to that point we continue about the details via e-mail/private chat).

The reason why I considered the 8 off 5.5Ah version were the following:
-Then I have the highest certainty that the batteries are the same as you had (not a slightly different production process that might influence the results)
-When you would use 4 off to test with, and then send all 8 of them over to me later on, if the performance of the 4 you used would deteriorate because of the shipping, I at least would still have 4 off brand new ones… to start fresh with…

However it will be more easy (and cheaper! Also weight wise for shipping)) to go for the set of 2, 12Ah… That is what I’m considering at the moment going for that option: https://www.batterysharks.com/Kit-of..._b12-12_x2.htm

What I keep asking myself though is: With all the swapping of parts that I’ve been doing, with all the batteries I have here, both AGM’s and FLA’s, I cannot get reproducible result of over +/-75% of COP… Will these batteries from the USA make a difference of 30%!!! percent?
I’m skeptical, but probably will be around with the question forever if I don’t try…
What are your thoughts on this?

I’m also still in correspondence with E. from TeslaGenX and asked for his input as well. Not sure how busy/interested you are, but I could include you in the CC in the correspondence if you want.

P.S. are you in contact with RS at all, or only here on the forum when he responds?

Best regards,
Rodolphe

[Gary Hammond]

Hi Rodolphe,

I can do that, but you would only need 4 of the 5.5AH batteries and not all eight. They are available in pairs as well at $35.99 per pair here https://www.batterysharks.com/Set-of...s12-5.5_x2.htm.

Here are a couple more options to consider. Four 7.5AH batteries at $78.99 https://www.batterysharks.com/Set-of...ups12-7_x4.htm or two 12AH batteries for $68.99 https://www.batterysharks.com/Kit-of..._b12-12_x2.htm .

I can order and test whichever ones you chose and then ship them to you. I don't know how much the overseas shipping would be.

regards,
Gary Hammond,

[pearldragon]

Hi Gary,

I see...

Would you be open to consider the following:
I buy a set (8 off), ship them to you. Maybe you would consider doing some SG runs with 4 of them (2 in parallel @ input, 2 in parallel @ output) to make sure these batteries too perform in the ballpark of what you had with your old ones, leaving 4 off untouched. And then ship the whole whole lot of 8 to me? (me paying for all everything off course).

If for any reason you don't feel for it, no worries; I can ask if I can send them to the guys from TeslaGenX, and ask if they want to ship them to me.

Looking forward to your reply,
Best regards,
Rodolphe

[Gary Hammond]

Hi Rodolphe,

Would you consider sending me your 4 off AGM batteries (2x2 in parallel) with which you got around a COP of 1 as you mentioned a couple of posts back?

I looked this up. That was post #29 in this thread posted on 06-17-2020. That's a little over two years ago. Those four were among the eight that I purchased new prior to 2020, probably in 2019? They have been sitting unused since March of this year and currently measure between the lowest one at 12.27 volts and the highest one at 12.67 volts. I'm sure they've lost a lot of of their original capacity by now.

I doubt they would prove what you want, especially after shipping them across the "POND".

regards,
Gary Hammond,

P.S. Here's the link to where I ordered them. https://www.batterysharks.com/8-UPS-...s12-5.5_x8.htm Problem is they only ship to destinations within the continental USA.

[pearldragon]

Hi Gary,

It’s been a while but I’ve finally started to do new test runs with the upgrades from my previous posts. Unfortunately so far it doesn’t seem to make a difference, at least not a change that brings me even remotely closer to over unity.

I guess one of the last things I could try is testing with the same batteries you have.

I was wondering if you’d be open to the of the following:
Would you consider sending me your 4 off AGM batteries (2x2 in parallel) with which you got around a COP of 1 as you mentioned a couple of posts back? If so, I could either buy new ones for you* or if you don’t want new ones, but just money for them I can pay you for them. Of course I would also pay for the shipping costs.

*You might wonder why I’d not buy new ones myself. The thing is that over the years the manufacturing process has changed a bit and so the new batteries now of the same type could in theory be still a bit different.

If with your batteries I get the same results as with y other AGMs, it must still be something in the machine, if I suddenly see a jump in the performance, the bottleneck has been found…
Looking forward to your reply before going into more details of this.

Best regards,
Rodolphe

[Gary Hammond]

Hi Rodolphe,

Looks good!

Gary Hammond,

[pearldragon]

Hi Gary,

Updates are basically done:

-All new connection wires, this time pure copper
-Big disconnect switch
-cleaned up the wires near and underneath the PCB board.

So ready for new runs