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  • #61
    Something to help the disheartened when it comes to seeing evidence of an energy gain.

    Following on from comms with a developer, who contacted me describing their setup and who was trying to gather some evidence that their device was showing some indication of an energy gain, I have put together some thoughts on this important question that may be of use to others.

    Sometimes the evidence of an energy gain is 'hidden' in plain sight.

    The attached doc will explain and has been added to the Manual Appendices folder.

    J
    Attached Files
    Last edited by JulesP; 01-29-2023, 07:12 AM.
    'Consciousness came First'

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    • #62
      Hi Julian,

      Something to help the disheartened when it comes to seeing evidence of an energy gain.

      Following on from comms with a developer, who contacted me describing their setup and who was trying to gather some evidence that their device was showing some indication of an energy gain, I have put together some thoughts on this important question that may be of use to others.

      Sometimes the evidence of an energy gain is 'hidden' in plain sight.

      The attached doc will explain and has been added to the Manual Appendices folder.

      JAttached Files


      Last edited by JulesP; Today, 09:12 AM.

      Thanks for posting this to encourage others. It is well written and explains things I've struggled to explain to others.

      Gary Hammond,




      Comment


      • #63
        Thanks Gary,

        It is also worth remembering that in the original story of the SG device, built by Shawnee Baughman, it describes not how the device ran some external load, but that the batteries were not running down as expected, based on what the device was consuming, but lasted much longer - which annoyed her science teachers!

        In other words, the energy drain in running the device was being offset to a significant degree by the effect of the pulses on the battery.

        Just repeating this observation should be seen as a substantial success.

        J

        'Consciousness came First'

        Comment


        • #64
          Hi Julian,

          Thanks for your elaboration/post #60.

          Once I get to the point that my setup is build, and having some experience under my belt, will for sure consider doing some of the verifications regarding my questions (e.g. the diodes).
          I’ll be on a holiday for a while, but will have a look now an then here on the forum for updates. Looking forward to read through your article of post #61.
          Most of the parts/components from the list I have ordered, should all trickle in in the upcoming weeks.
          Regards,
          Rodolphe

          Comment


          • #65
            I should have some results to post in 2-3 weeks but from initial tests the device behaviour with swapping is very different from when doing single cycle CoP tests however accurate those may be.

            This may change the way you want to proceed with your build. I will likely probably be looking to find ways to improve things performance.

            J
            'Consciousness came First'

            Comment


            • #66
              A relatively short update on what has been happening with the load testing. There is both good and not so good news, but it’s early days in the process.

              On the good side there is clear evidence of energy gain, which is my primary objective scientifically speaking, but so far the predicted power outputs have not been observed and I would like a much clearer result.

              There are various possibilities why this might be so. One of the main contenders is that in the CoP tests only one discharge/charge cycle is undertaken with time between for the energy and charge to be chemically assimilated. In live load tests, at the end of a charging phase, the battery goes straight into a supply phase and so there is little or no time to ‘process’ the incoming energy.

              The graph below is an example of where the net voltage change after a series of swaps leads the battery voltage to be the same as at the start when compared to a control run (green plot) where the monitored battery received no pulses but only acted as a supply for the other battery to be pulse charged. This is only a short test run but it shows the principle, as mentioned in my piece entitled ‘Am I seeing an energy gain?’ where the receiving battery is not losing voltage as fast as it should give the energy it is supplying to the system.

              Click image for larger version

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              However, I believe the system is capable of far more and this is sought to demonstrate the above point far more clearly and conclusively and I am exploring a range of developments to address that. These include revisiting the cap dump circuit to see how live load tests work with it. It had been sidelined given that the CoP results were poor but, given the apparent lack of correlation between CoP and actual power output, it may be better in practice than in theory.

              I will also be investigating how changing the discharge voltage from the cap dump unit affects performance including using smaller higher voltage storage capacitors for a higher rate of delivery but at a lower charge. In addition, I will be experimenting with pulse combining whereby the high current pulses from the cap dump unit are temporarily accompanied by a burst of HV spikes to accelerate the charge delivered. This is something that Peter Lindemann commented that he and Bedini had found useful and this is illustrated in the graphic below. A prototype switching circuit has been constructed to use with the cap dump unit to test this idea in the coming month or so.


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              Lastly, I will be seeing how changing the three output diodes (IN5408s) for one Silicon Carbide C3D06065A diode affects the pulses to remove any possibility of ‘pulse throttling’.

              Plenty to be getting on with as winter merges into spring.

              'Consciousness came First'

              Comment


              • #67
                Hi Julian,

                In the videos of John Bedini*, he mentions that if you work in pure radiant mode (=just HV pulses), you cannot swap out the output battery for the input battery when the charge cycle is done. If you do so, he mentions that the batteries will both run down. (this in contrast to using a cap dump system). However, the first image of your post #66 shows it IS possible. But as you stated it does not yield the CoP that you calculated with your previous test setup.

                Taking into account what JB said, you could try the following: Use the setup that you used for the initial CoP calculations (so no swapping, DC power supply as input), and run a resistive load directly off the output battery while it is being charged, while monitoring the power used by the resistive load. Or, alternatively, instead of putting 1 batty at the output, put two in parallel. It’d be interesting to see if the CoP of any of the above two mentioned setups come closer to your original calculated CoP values.


                *EFV DVD 6: Inside radiant energy. @+/-10min

                Regards,
                Rodolphe

                Comment


                • #68
                  Hi Rodolphe,

                  That’s interesting and I wonder if it’s because of the reason I suggested, that there isn’t time to process the radiant energy in electrochemical terms. Does JB give any further details as to why?

                  What I have shown is marginal so I’m hoping the use of the cap dump system will give much clearer results.

                  Other researchers are using the mechanical output of the primary load (rotary switching system) to drive a normal type of generator to produce regular ’hot’ electricity. Presumably they use the HV pulses to run a cap dump system as well to feed back to the batteries.

                  Another major issue is around the impedance of the system and the convenience of using SLA batteries, Lead Acid or Lithium, is more than offset by their high internal resistance. A typical 7Ah battery will be around 200-300mOhms compared to a fluid filed car type battery of 20-30mOhms. One is far more likely to see radiant effects with the latter which I will soon be examining.

                  Yes, in due course I will be trying to run a load off the battery being charged using both HV and cap dump pulses.

                  Lots of variations to try, which is far better than hitting a dead end!

                  J
                  Last edited by JulesP; 03-01-2023, 10:50 PM.
                  'Consciousness came First'

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Hi Julian,

                    Just got back from holiday. Will have another look at the DVD soon and let you know if some more of his comments/details about the HV pulses.
                    Most of the components came in, still waiting for the the volt/ampere displays, which are holding me back of ordering/finalizing design of the base plate. Picture below is work in progress. Main thing I'm battling at the moment is time .

                    Best regards,
                    Rodolphe
                    Click image for larger version

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                    • #70
                      Following on from my experimenting with a single Silicon Carbide Diode (C3D06065A), instead of my original three parallel IN5408 diodes (see pic), I have found about a 15 - 20% increase in CoP values across a selection of batteries. This will be useful for future testing.

                      Click image for larger version

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                      After a very constructive discussion with Geoffrey Miller, there are a few tweaks I will be making to my experimental procedure with regard to load tests using the HV pulses alone. My earlier suggestion that the battery being charged does not have time to assimilate the energy input before it is called upon to be a supply, seems to be the right view and so I will be incorporating a 60 min rest time into my swapping. As such I am going to call this 'punctuated swapping' and where the 60 min rest period will not show on the monitoring graph as I will pause the monitoring during the rest phase. Let's see if the original CoP results bear more fruit if it is given a chance to manifest.

                      Click image for larger version

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                      Regarding my various 'Cap dump' developments, the attached shows the various configurations I will be exploring over the coming months to see what delivers the best results. What I refer to in them as the 'router' and the 'relay' in C and D, are now built as modular add-on circuits, and the revised design of the main cap dump unit, to accommodate discharge voltages up to 120V, is also now complete and due back from JCLPCB. It will be built as a test version to check the various adjustment to all the various biasings for the various BJTs and P-channel FETs. The aim is to allow a wide range of discharge voltages for experimentation and then, if one particular one or configuration stands out, I can issue a PCB design for those who would like to use it. Similarly with the router and relay.

                      I think spring is making an appearance - now the clocks have gone forward it ruddy well ought to!

                      Julian
                      Attached Files
                      'Consciousness came First'

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                      • #71
                        Hi Julian,
                        finished th voltage dividerr this weekend and continued on the PCB. Anticipating that the SD diodes would potentially give an increase (as you described in your post above). I used the terminals there as well so i can easily swap between diodes D3, D4, D5).

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                        Last edited by pearldragon; 03-27-2023, 11:24 AM.

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                        • #72
                          Good stuff. Have you added some extra connector blocks alongside each of the output diodes? Is that so you can try different diodes easily? Using just one IN5408 instead of three made a small difference also but not as much as using an SC diode.
                          'Consciousness came First'

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Hi Julian,
                            I soldered the terminal blocks in the holes for the diodes en put the diodes in the terminal blocks for easy swapping, see image below.

                            As you can see in the close up image, I used a different socket for H25 as i described in an earlier post. Reason: the contacts in the socket mentioned in the manual did not make well enough contact to my taste with the Mosfet contacts prongs.

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                            Last edited by pearldragon; 04-01-2023, 09:08 AM.

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                            • #74
                              Hi Julian,

                              Finally got the amp/volt meters in which enabled me to finalize the base plate and continued building see picture below.
                              I have a couple of (layman) questions/double checks which I hope you can help me with regarding connecting the components.
                              Unless stated otherwise my questions relate to the electrical diagram on page 1 of your manual.


                              PRF meter
                              1) I have 4 connections; 2 for the power supply (+ and GND), and 2 for the signal (IN and GND), is it correct that I can connect the two ground (GND) connections together (since in this case the power supply is not a separate system from the system to be measured)?


                              PWM module
                              2) I have 4 connections; 2 for the power supply (V+ and V-), and 2 for the signal (PWM and GND). For now I left the GND connection open/not connected. But same question as above; could I connect the V- to the GND?


                              Volt/Amp meters
                              3) Why does the amp meter part (of the combined volt/amp meter) of both the meters have a common line to both the negatives of the batteries? -> Why are they not in the individual lines of the batteries (before they join together in the “T”, before the main switch?

                              Soldering
                              4a) In the beginning of the manual you propose to solder the ends of wires instead of letting them stranded (for the screw terminal connections). Any particular reason for that?
                              4b) To connected the wires from the PCB to the rocker switches and the fuse box, you used soldered connections. Any particular reason for this instead of using terminal connectors/plugs?

                              Thanks in advance,
                              Best regards,
                              Rodolphe


                              Click image for larger version

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                              • #75
                                Hi Rodolphe,

                                Your build has come along very nicely and with its own unique base design. I’m sure you’re pleased.

                                Re your questions:

                                PRF meter: Yes you can simply run a wire under the unit between the two GNDs for that to work. When I ran with the rotor I used the external meter a lot but when using solid-state then I tend to rely on the PWM display, but it's good to have some confirmation.

                                PWM module: If you look at the attached graphic, which shows my setup of both the two small meters and the PWM module on the same panel, you will see the ground connection next to the signal output. However, I found it was not necessary to wire that one up and the output signal was fine without it. If you scope it and find the signal a bit ‘noisy’ then a link wire between the V- and the Gnd will probably improve it but so far I have not found it necessary.

                                Also shown there is the series current connection for the two meters, coming from the fuses, through both meters, and then off to the Ground return to the PCB.

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                                Volt/Amp meters: As shown above, the meters are both in series with the negative line that is being switched. While it may be possible to wire them up with separate negative lines it would offer no advantage. The voltage feeds are ‘individual’ for obvious reasons but the same current will be passing through both hence the present arrangement.

                                Bear in mind that these small meters are not accurate and should not be used for readings during testing. In fact, the current that shows would only show on one of the meters, the other reading zero while the two separate voltages would show. They can be calibrated using small adjustment pots on their circuits but they don’t hold well across a range. They serve as an indicator rather than for accurate measurements.

                                For accurate current measurements, you should place a decent meter between the positive terminal of the supply battery and the positive connection to the PCB, as indicated below. If you place the meter on the negative side it might be influenced by currents flowing to and from battery 2 so it’s best to have it in a dedicated position. Of course, this only works when Batt 1 is the supply, which is the way I have it, and Batt 2 is the one being charged and monitored by the CBA. When swapping is happening then, for the stage when batt 1 is being charged, I can use a clamp meter on batt 2 but its reading should be the same since nothing is changing on the circuit and coil side.

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                                Soldering: With the multi-strand wire, when it is inserted and removed repeatedly into the terminal blocks then it would start to get messy so I used solder to hold all the strands together and would usually flatten the soldered end with pliers and trim its length so it would fit easily into the blocks. Whatever works for you but the terminal blocks do not offer an opening big enough to take many other types of connectors.

                                When you have connected and disconnected all the wires to the PCB multiple times you get to find out what works best for you to maintain the integrity of the wire end.

                                With the mini switches I used, instead of the rockers type you are using, the switch terminals were too small to use with spade connectors or similar. They are best suited to solder connections, as are the small pads on the underside of the PCB.

                                . . . .

                                I assume your coils are on a separate base to connect to your PCB coil terminals?

                                If it turns out that a cap dump unit is required for optimum operation then that could be on another small base. I have made a few hard-wire mods to the v4 PCB to work with a cap dump unit and will of course provide details of those if, as, and when needed, as indeed for the cap dump unit itself.

                                I am gearing up to start my various capacitor configurations testing and am awaiting some 1,000 uF 200V capacitors. My 53,000uF bank will only work up to 80V and my new ‘multi-voltage’ cap dump design will go up to 140V.

                                I have had to use 'Devan' again for some hard-to-get components. Finding a local source of 150V P channel FETs is impossible at the moment, but he has plenty. My original supply was of poor quality and all but one have failed at the moment so I have my second stage prototype installed, which is using just one FET and which will do the main task. The photo shows the breadboard to first prototype stages. I can’t have automated swapping until I have the other two installed but there is a whole heap of testing I can do without battery swapping so no rush there.


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                                Last edited by JulesP; 04-16-2023, 01:11 AM.
                                'Consciousness came First'

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