Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Plasma Ignition | Plasma Jet Ignition

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • To all: I suspect the plasma effect will work fine with just about any ignition coil from older American cars. The 5000 ohm, low performance, secondary is not of concern for this circuit. If you are jumping straight to a car modification, then as Aaron says the CDI makes it easy, but it is not the heart of the phenomenon. I pulled a coil from a 60's vintage Ford truck that was abandoned and left out in the rain (not mine...). Works fine. I'm sure your local junk yard has many.

    I would encourage all to get the effect working with the simple relay based replication, and go from there. That will allow testing of components more easily.

    What creates the plasma spark effect is to first get a big enough spark, via the coil, that will create a low enough resistance (or negative resistance) in the spark gap, which will lower the voltage across the gap, which in turn will allow the capacitor to dump its charge through the diodes. As soon as the capacitor starts discharging ( which will be at a much higher amperage than the coil was), I believe the coil is no longer important to the effect, so there may not be much advantage, IMHO, to the expensive coils if all else is working properly.

    I have my HV supply (0-200V) on a variac, so that I can slowly turn the voltage up. One can see the spark start at a weak level, then get stronger as the voltage goes up, and then suddenly the spark is strong enough that the capacitor starts discharging into the gap with the attendent strong effect at ~130VDC. The difference for the threshold is only +/- 5-10 volts, quite a sudden transition.

    The diode string only needs to stand off the initial break down voltage of the gap (with some head room). If you widen the gap, that initial voltage will go up. It is hard to measure unless one has the proper high voltage probes. It is not difficult to damage equipment with this circuit! An old tube type Tek or HP scope would be nice. I am hoping to use a current transformer to measure the peak current in the discharge. That is the other aspect of the diode rating, which has to withstand the expected high avalanche current.

    So far in my project, as of today, I have a modified single cylinder generator running well. All the external circuitry is powered from the mains supply. I can see the effect of a more complete burn with the plasma spark, just in terms of smell. I'm using propane for experimental purposes, and I know what the usual smell of such a generator is like. The plasma spark makes for an almost odorless emission. I can run a leaner mix as well. Once all the bugs are out of the standard configuration I will move on to other tests, like water vapor.
    Last edited by serendipitor; 11-04-2014, 02:01 AM.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Aaron Murakami View Post
      The MSD or a regular CDI is just handy because it is an off the shelf cap charger.

      On a stock car, you can't modify the stock ignition to get this effect.

      The easiest way is to have an off the shelf MSD - is your Civic's ignition a wasted spark ignition?
      It's also a bit costly for an old car.

      I dont have stock ignition, but i am not sure about wasted spark. I do have distributor, but dont know how the sparks are distributed to the cylinders, will type when my homework is done here. Thank you for replies.

      Comment


      • After thinking about it for a long time I decided to try reverse voltage on the ignition coil. (What could possibly go wrong!?) I put positive wire from the MDS to negative post and negative wire from the MDS to the positive post on the ignition coil.
        That worked, but the spark on the plug was not as strong as it used to be.
        Since the HV spark is only there as a switch for the low voltage high current (booster capacitors) it does not matter if the spark is a little bit weaker.
        Now I was finally able to get both diode strings to point towards the top of the spark plug.
        Then I hooked up the a booster cap (270 uf photo flash), and got big flashes going off with 120 ac rectified to dc. The flashes were not regular.
        The flashes become more regular when I upped the voltage to 240 volts.
        Later I used a 450 v 5 uf runcap, and that did not make a big flash, but it followed the HV spark. Nice and loud. All this was tested with some flimsy test leads, now I need to work on the wire thickness and connections.
        Getting there!

        Comment


        • Originally posted by serendipitor View Post
          To all: I suspect the plasma effect will work fine with just about any ignition coil from older American cars. The 5000 ohm, low performance, secondary is not of concern for this circuit. If you are jumping straight to a car modification, then as Aaron says the CDI makes it easy, but it is not the heart of the phenomenon. I pulled a coil from a 60's vintage Ford truck that was abandoned and left out in the rain (not mine...). Works fine. I'm sure your local junk yard has many.

          I would encourage all to get the effect working with the simple relay based replication, and go from there. That will allow testing of components more easily.

          What creates the plasma spark effect is to first get a big enough spark, via the coil, that will create a low enough resistance (or negative resistance) in the spark gap, which will lower the voltage across the gap, which in turn will allow the capacitor to dump its charge through the diodes. As soon as the capacitor starts discharging ( which will be at a much higher amperage than the coil was), I believe the coil is no longer important to the effect, so there may not be much advantage, IMHO, to the expensive coils if all else is working properly.

          I have my HV supply (0-200V) on a variac, so that I can slowly turn the voltage up. One can see the spark start at a weak level, then get stronger as the voltage goes up, and then suddenly the spark is strong enough that the capacitor starts discharging into the gap with the attendent strong effect at ~130VDC. The difference for the threshold is only +/- 5-10 volts, quite a sudden transition.

          The diode string only needs to stand off the initial break down voltage of the gap (with some head room). If you widen the gap, that initial voltage will go up. It is hard to measure unless one has the proper high voltage probes. It is not difficult to damage equipment with this circuit! An old tube type Tek or HP scope would be nice. I am hoping to use a current transformer to measure the peak current in the discharge. That is the other aspect of the diode rating, which has to withstand the expected high avalanche current.

          So far in my project, as of today, I have a modified single cylinder generator running well. All the external circuitry is powered from the mains supply. I can see the effect of a more complete burn with the plasma spark, just in terms of smell. I'm using propane for experimental purposes, and I know what the usual smell of such a generator is like. The plasma spark makes for an almost odorless emission. I can run a leaner mix as well. Once all the bugs are out of the standard configuration I will move on to other tests, like water vapor.
          Exactly, coil is not important for the effect, just to ionize the gap - its the LV source that is of concern but all the polarities have to be worked out for whatever coil/diode/cap combo anyone uses.

          It works fine with cheap $40 black body stock ignition coils.

          What kind of generator do you have and what kind of carb are you using?
          Aaron Murakami





          You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.” ― Richard Buckminster Fuller

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Beebrox View Post
            It's also a bit costly for an old car.

            I dont have stock ignition, but i am not sure about wasted spark. I do have distributor, but dont know how the sparks are distributed to the cylinders, will type when my homework is done here. Thank you for replies.
            If you have a distributor where it has an output for each plug with electronic or mechanical points in it, you probably do not have wasted spark ignition - it is probably firing one plug at a time in the correct timing sequence. That is the easiest type of car ignition system to put the plasma on.

            Of course, you'd have to verify that the distributor is in fact a normal distributor.

            If so and if the coil is normal too, the Street Fire ignition module is inexpensive and should work but check with MSD to make sure.

            This is is the one: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...SIN=B001O28622
            Aaron Murakami





            You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.” ― Richard Buckminster Fuller

            Comment


            • Originally posted by ThankyouBedini View Post
              After thinking about it for a long time I decided to try reverse voltage on the ignition coil. (What could possibly go wrong!?) I put positive wire from the MDS to negative post and negative wire from the MDS to the positive post on the ignition coil.
              That worked, but the spark on the plug was not as strong as it used to be.
              Since the HV spark is only there as a switch for the low voltage high current (booster capacitors) it does not matter if the spark is a little bit weaker.
              Now I was finally able to get both diode strings to point towards the top of the spark plug.
              Then I hooked up the a booster cap (270 uf photo flash), and got big flashes going off with 120 ac rectified to dc. The flashes were not regular.
              The flashes become more regular when I upped the voltage to 240 volts.
              Later I used a 450 v 5 uf runcap, and that did not make a big flash, but it followed the HV spark. Nice and loud. All this was tested with some flimsy test leads, now I need to work on the wire thickness and connections.
              Getting there!
              Your coil is probably a common autotransformer coil where the HV ground shares a common ground with the negative of the primary.

              The HV winding is wound the wrong way to dump the cap backwards on the primary for it to work with the design of the coil, but as long as it suits your needs - glad you got it working.
              Aaron Murakami





              You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.” ― Richard Buckminster Fuller

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Aaron Murakami View Post
                What kind of generator do you have and what kind of carb are you using?
                It is a Yamaha MZ-360, very much in line with many typical Japanese overhead cam single cylinder generators of ~5kW or so. I have put my own crude but effective propane difuser in place of the jet of the original carb, with a mixture valve. As I am going forwards I will tack on some inlets for hydrogen and air control. Very ad hoc for now.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by ThankyouBedini View Post
                  All this was tested with some flimsy test leads, now I need to work on the wire thickness and connections.
                  I see a number of pictures and videos of experiments using small gauge wire clip leads. This is not the way to get the best results. I suspect that the amperage of the capacitor discharge is quite high (measurements waiting), so one is very much recommended to use solid connections and reasonable wire size.

                  In fact it was with the use of a loose aligator clip to ground that sparked, that I managed to generate some kind of high energy pulse that caused damage to a computer and power supply on another circuit entirely. I think the radiant energy spikes will go to surprising places.

                  Also I recommend a solid connection between the common ( or negative) side of the capacitor and the spark plug body. Don't place the switching element on the capacitor; rather switch the common side of the HV coil to the common bus (or negative). That way the high current pulse from the capacitor does not have to go through your switching element and its resistance. Switching on time is very short, less than 500 microseconds. That is a very small duty cycle for this circuit when running at 30Hz (which is appropriate for a 3600 rpm waste spark eliminated engine.)
                  Last edited by serendipitor; 11-06-2014, 02:00 AM.

                  Comment


                  • ThankyouBedini, Aaron's diagram of the proof of his plasma ignition concept (see Ignition Secrets Manual), shows charged cap (-) output connected to coil LV (-) input, THEN coil LV (-) ALSO connected to Spark Plug BASE, so left-over (-) charge is added to the Spark Plug base.

                    HV (+) pulls the LV (-) from coil LV (-) IN TO spark plug base THROUGH spark gap TO spark plug center electrode. If THIS connection is left out, WHERE is the HV (+) going to try and get the (-) charge from to pull into the spark plug gap if your plug base is ONLY connected to 13.8 Vdc Battery (-)?

                    A car battery might have 50 amps on hand, and now the HV (+) is pulling it out of the battery thats supposed to also run BOTH your chargers?

                    See what happens when you only run your plasma CDI with at least 30kV diode string pointing to coil HV, connected from HV to CDI output (+) - AND your coil LV (-) connected to spark plug base!

                    When you got that right, then you ad in your booster cap system... connecting it they way Aaron will advize you too.

                    I can assure you that even on a NORMAL ignition, if you have a PLASMA Booster Cap System connected CORRECTLY, it helps even a normal little old spark to become a bit bigger than even a spark from just a peaking cap - I've build one and in the end had it working right and installed on a car... all thanks to the patience and wise advice of Aaron that I learned in the forum.

                    But the MONSTER Aaron speaks of everywhere, is at your door - don't give up!!!
                    Last edited by Willem Coetzee; 11-05-2014, 11:46 AM.

                    Comment


                    • Thank you very much. I can not wait to try. First I have to put in a order for a new coil and a lot of diodes.

                      Comment


                      • I have been looking at the patent for Plasma Ignition, http://www.google.com/patents/US8555867.
                        Seems like I need resistors and an SCR and another coil.
                        I would need some help with my shopping list.
                        Any suggestions for useful parts?

                        Thank You All!

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by ThankyouBedini View Post
                          I have been looking at the patent for Plasma Ignition, http://www.google.com/patents/US8555867.
                          Seems like I need resistors and an SCR and another coil.
                          I would need some help with my shopping list.
                          Any suggestions for useful parts?

                          Thank You All!
                          That SCR is part of the CDI circuit which you already have inside of the MSD unit. The cap in there is chopped with an SCR most likely.

                          You don't need that for the booster caps. Just keep them charged by whatever means and they'll automatically discharge when the HV ionizes the gap.
                          Aaron Murakami





                          You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.” ― Richard Buckminster Fuller

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by ThankyouBedini View Post
                            I have been looking at the patent for Plasma Ignition, http://www.google.com/patents/US8555867.
                            Seems like I need resistors and an SCR and another coil.
                            I would need some help with my shopping list.
                            Any suggestions for useful parts?

                            Thank You All!
                            When a cap is fully charged, it will stop taking on charge by itself. It will discharge the moment the (+) & (-) plates find a mutual path to one another. At the correct timing for this, a trigger pulse switches an SCR on, that CLOSES the loop between CDI cap/s and coil primary winding.

                            Booster Cap/s connect in parallel across that gap - when the ignition coil discharge through the gap, that gap is conductive, so that CLOSES the loop between booster cap (+) & (-) giving it a path to discharge over.

                            So indirectly, what ever closes the CDI cap circuit to discharge into the coil for the HV discharge over the spark plug gap, also allows the booster cap/s to discharge - so an SCR (or whatever other switch component or mechanism) is only needed for the CDI.

                            Because the booster cap/s are connected in parallel to the SAME spark plug that the ignition coil is connected to, the high-voltages coil discharge can ground itself in the booster cap/s, because the booster cap/s are of a lower potential. So your diode string/s are needed to protect the booster cap/s and charging circuitry.

                            Look on page 2 of this thread - DogOne posted "how to do it" showing you step by step what he did.
                            Last edited by Willem Coetzee; 11-09-2014, 04:36 PM.

                            Comment


                            • Plasma Ignition picture. http://www.google.com/patents/US8555867
                              On this picture, 120, an inductive element, is that the Bergstresser coil?
                              There is also an inductive element, 220, on the boostercap side, would that also be a Bergstresser coil?
                              US08555867-20131015-D00000.jpgUS08555867-20131015-D00002.jpg
                              With the MDS I probably will not have to worry about this. My plan is to build my own circuit, like the one Peter Lindemann is showing.

                              On the lawn mover video that came with the ignitonsecrets.com there are lots of fat resistors in use.
                              I would like to know if I should stock up on resistors?
                              If that is the case, then what kind could come in handy for research?

                              I like what DogOne is doing, anybody here that knows what kind of transformers he is using?

                              And now comes the long painful wait for parts...Banana Land is far away...

                              Thank you all!
                              Last edited by ThankyouBedini; 11-12-2014, 01:52 AM.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by ThankyouBedini View Post
                                Plasma Ignition picture. http://www.google.com/patents/US8555867
                                On this picture, 120, an inductive element, is that the Bergstresser coil?
                                There is also an inductive element, 220, on the boostercap side, would that also be a Bergstresser coil?
                                [ATTACH=CONFIG]4070[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]4071[/ATTACH]
                                With the MDS I probably will not have to worry about this. My plan is to build my own circuit, like the one Peter Lindemann is showing.

                                On the lawn mover video that came with the ignitonsecrets.com there are lots of fat resistors in use.
                                I would like to know if I should stock up on resistors?
                                If that is the case, then what kind could come in handy for research?

                                I like what DogOne is doing, anybody here that knows what kind of transformers he is using?

                                And now comes the long painful wait for parts...Banana Land is far away...

                                Thank you all!
                                Those are not Bergstressor coils.

                                I personally wouldn't go that route for the circuit like you see with the lawnmower. That was a crude test that did work great, but we were just half rectifying AC to charge a cap.

                                If it's for a generator, I'd just power a MSD with 12v output or power a MSD with a AC wall adapter plugged into the generator for 12v and however many amps you need for the MSD.
                                Aaron Murakami





                                You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.” ― Richard Buckminster Fuller

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X