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Thread: Solid State Build

  1. #21
    Back again ;-)

    Ok guys I have come up with something that I think is pretty special. I don’t know if this has been done in the past but I have not heard of it being done. People have been tinkering with these circuits for a long time so who knows.

    First let me explain what I wanted to accomplish with this, what prompted me to come up with it.

    I really liked how Patrick’s CPD runs as I have explained before, but I like to run my machine at a higher draw. When using a CPD you reach a point pretty quickly where you zoom right past a pulse and start into a fast frequency.

    I wanted to decouple the pulse rate from the resistance setting on the trigger circuit. This did not seem possible with the CPD because it is in series with the main trigger circuit. Less resistance=faster frequency and they are tied together that way.

    What I wanted was a way to set the resistance on the trigger to anywhere I want it and then be able to control the pulse independently. Here is my solution.

    light_trigger_pulse.jpg

    You may be looking at that and thinking, He forgot the base resistors, the intermediate resistor! Nope I did not. I am not using them in this setup. The pot and photo resistors provide all the resistance I need. I like how that works out too because it is one less thing to have to try and match.

    Here is a shot of my board with the resistors jumped-through.

    Bobssboard_resistors_jumped.jpg

    I constructed an Optical Pulse Generator to control the current across the trigger. It pulses light into photo resistors to make the trigger rise and fall. Obviously you can change out the capacitor values to get different pulses but I put what I have found to work well in the schematic.

    Here is a shot of the photo resistors and the LED's. I found that RED works best. They have a lower voltage than blue or white and play nice with the cap that is driving them. The color spectrum may have something to do with it too for the resistors to pick up the light. I did try Blue, White, and RED. The LED's are not the t1 style, they are larger and are capable of really bright output.

    Also notice that there are TWO of the resistors in parallel. This was crucial to getting this to work properly. With only one resistor the light would not drop the resistance low enough to get a good current through the base. When you parallel two of them the same rules apply as with normal resistors, you increase their dissipation and lower their resistance. I was mostly concerned with the resistance but having two of them share the load also helps not to over drive a single one so it works out nice that way. I did not find that I needed more but you could parallel as many as you need to get the response that you want.

    photo resistors.jpg

    As is usually the case with these devices it takes a lot of care to get it tuned well. It is important to understand that the “dark” period is what we are really trying to manipulate. When the photo resistors go dark they introduce massive resistance and do not allow current to flow. The quick rise of light excites the junction and at the peak of brightness it brings the resistance down to only 100Ohm or so. Of course it all depends on your particular LED’s and photo resistors.

    If you pulse too quickly you will over saturate the P junction and not get a complete switching off. The device will run this way but we want a sharp OFF (Dark) to occur AND enough time for the photo resistor to fall back They do not react at the speed of light ;-) , otherwise there is no need for a pulse at all. You could just drive the circuit normally and put in a normal resistor to accomplish the same thing.

    From my experimenting I have found that if you adjust the pot of the pulse circuit just to where it pulses and then back it off a very little you will get a nice ramp up and then a dump which causes the cap to go weak and the cycle starts over. To put it another way you will see dim light for a short period as the cap charges, then it dumps and you get a very bright flash, then a dark period while it charges back up.

    This is what you want because even the short dim period activates the photo resistor so you will see a draw at about 1/3 then a quick ramp up to full, then off. This works out so that we are not using a half on half off cycle but more like 1/3 dim, 1/3 bright, 1/3 off.

    The off period is where we get the spike from the coil collapse. It is the equivalent of a magnet pass on a mechanical system.

    Here is a short video showing what I am rambling about. I have the meter on resistance across the photo resistor. The machine is not powered on (not charging anything), we are just looking at the action of the trigger pulse. Notice we go from several million Ohm down to near zero and repeat. The meter has a hard time actually showing it properly because of the sample rate but you get the idea.

    Trigger Ohm


    We want the resistance to go high on the pulse, this is the equivalent of a magnet leaving the coil. If we do not go high we are not going to get nice spikes. Low resistance means the trigger is on, high means it is switched off.

    Here are the LED’s without the cover to show the ramping up of the LED. Remember we don’t want a really fast pulse because it doesn’t allow the Ohms to rise high enough. If the photo resistors could switch at the speed of light it would be perfect but they cannot. They have a rise/fall time that we need to work with.

    Trigger Ramp


    Here is a video of it while the machine is on (charging batteries). Watch the amp draw. When it is low that is the pulse circuit charging the cap, the main SS is not drawing anything at that point. Then it climbs while the dim period begins,, then the flash where we pull +1 amp. Then the dark period and it begins again.


    Trigger Running


    So there you have it. I am still experimenting with small changes but so far this method seems to be really good. The huge bonus of this is that you can set your main trigger pot at whatever you like for your particular load and then control the trigger pulse independently of that. I was triggering pretty high draws (1 – 2 Amps) but what I am saying is you could turn your main pot down so that it can only draw say Ĺ an amp if that is what you prefer and it has nothing to do with the pulse.

    I will do some runs and post back later. I just wanted to share this with the group.

    By the way I did try this with photo diodes and photo transistors but they didn’t work as nicely as this. I cannot say with full confidence that this is the way to go but this is a group for experimenter’s right, so that is what I am doing and I am happy to share ideas.
    ---Bob
    Last edited by BobZilla; 05-08-2013 at 04:42 PM.

  2. #22

    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by BobZilla View Post
    Back again ;-)

    Ok guys I have come up with something that I think is pretty special. I donít know if this has been done in the past but I have not heard of it being done. People have been tinkering with these circuits for a long time so who knows.

    First let me explain what I wanted to accomplish with this, what prompted me to come up with it.

    I really liked how Patrickís CPD runs as I have explained before, but I like to run my machine at a higher draw. When using a CPD you reach a point pretty quickly where you zoom right past a pulse and start into a fast frequency.

    I wanted to decouple the pulse rate from the resistance setting on the trigger circuit. This did not seem possible with the CPD because it is in series with the main trigger circuit. Less resistance=faster frequency and they are tied together that way.

    What I wanted was a way to set the resistance on the trigger to anywhere I want it and then be able to control the pulse independently. Here is my solution.

    light_trigger_pulse.jpg

    You may be looking at that and thinking, He forgot the base resistors, the intermediate resistor! Nope I did not. I am not using them in this setup. The pot and photo resistors provide all the resistance I need. I like how that works out too because it is one less thing to have to try and match.

    Here is a shot of my board with the resistors jumped-through.

    Bobssboard_resistors_jumped.jpg

    I constructed an Optical Pulse Generator to control the current across the trigger. It pulses light into photo resistors to make the trigger rise and fall. Obviously you can change out the capacitor values to get different pulses but I put what I have found to work well in the schematic.

    Here is a shot of the photo resistors and the LED's. I found that RED works best. They have a lower voltage than blue or white and play nice with the cap that is driving them. The color spectrum may have something to do with it too for the resistors to pick up the light. I did try Blue, White, and RED. The LED's are not the t1 style, they are larger and are capable of really bright output.

    Also notice that there are TWO of the resistors in parallel. This was crucial to getting this to work properly. With only one resistor the light would not drop the resistance low enough to get a good current through the base. When you parallel two of them the same rules apply as with normal resistors, you increase their dissipation and lower their resistance. I was mostly concerned with the resistance but having two of them share the load also helps not to over drive a single one so it works out nice that way. I did not find that I needed more but you could parallel as many as you need to get the response that you want.

    photo resistors.jpg

    As is usually the case with these devices it takes a lot of care to get it tuned well. It is important to understand that the ďdarkĒ period is what we are really trying to manipulate. When the photo resistors go dark they introduce massive resistance and do not allow current to flow. The quick rise of light excites the junction and at the peak of brightness it brings the resistance down to only 100Ohm or so. Of course it all depends on your particular LEDís and photo resistors.

    If you pulse too quickly you will over saturate the P junction and not get a complete switching off. The device will run this way but we want a sharp OFF (Dark) to occur AND enough time for the photo resistor to fall back They do not react at the speed of light ;-) , otherwise there is no need for a pulse at all. You could just drive the circuit normally and put in a normal resistor to accomplish the same thing.

    From my experimenting I have found that if you adjust the pot of the pulse circuit just to where it pulses and then back it off a very little you will get a nice ramp up and then a dump which causes the cap to go weak and the cycle starts over. To put it another way you will see dim light for a short period as the cap charges, then it dumps and you get a very bright flash, then a dark period while it charges back up.

    This is what you want because even the short dim period activates the photo resistor so you will see a draw at about 1/3 then a quick ramp up to full, then off. This works out so that we are not using a half on half off cycle but more like 1/3 dim, 1/3 bright, 1/3 off.

    The off period is where we get the spike from the coil collapse. It is the equivalent of a magnet pass on a mechanical system.

    Here is a short video showing what I am rambling about. I have the meter on resistance across the photo resistor. The machine is not powered on (not charging anything), we are just looking at the action of the trigger pulse. Notice we go from several million Ohm down to near zero and repeat. The meter has a hard time actually showing it properly because of the sample rate but you get the idea.

    Trigger Ohm


    We want the resistance to go high on the pulse, this is the equivalent of a magnet leaving the coil. If we do not go high we are not going to get nice spikes. Low resistance means the trigger is on, high means it is switched off.

    Here are the LEDís without the cover to show the ramping up of the LED. Remember we donít want a really fast pulse because it doesnít allow the Ohms to rise high enough. If the photo resistors could switch at the speed of light it would be perfect but they cannot. They have a rise/fall time that we need to work with.

    Trigger Ramp


    Here is a video of it while the machine is on (charging batteries). Watch the amp draw. When it is low that is the pulse circuit charging the cap, the main SS is not drawing anything at that point. Then it climbs while the dim period begins,, then the flash where we pull +1 amp. Then the dark period and it begins again.


    Trigger Running


    So there you have it. I am still experimenting with small changes but so far this method seems to be really good. The huge bonus of this is that you can set your main trigger pot at whatever you like for your particular load and then control the trigger pulse independently of that. I was triggering pretty high draws (1 Ė 2 Amps) but what I am saying is you could turn your main pot down so that it can only draw say Ĺ an amp if that is what you prefer and it has nothing to do with the pulse.

    I will do some runs and post back later. I just wanted to share this with the group.

    By the way I did try this with photo diodes and photo transistors but they didnít work as nicely as this. I cannot say with full confidence that this is the way to go but this is a group for experimenterís right, so that is what I am doing and I am happy to share ideas.
    ---Bob
    Hi Bob,
    I like your use of the negistor here!
    Have you tried using a cap dump as John K suggested to monitor the charge rate? That move w/ the photoresistors is innovative.
    Nice work,
    Patrick A.

  3. #23
    Hi Patrick,
    I'm not sure what you mean, couldn't find what John said. Was it in another thread by chance?

    I am thinking that I may be able to use this same method as a cap dumper instead of a trigger pulse. I have not tried it yet but I don't see why we couldn't place the photo resistors between a cap and the load and have a cap dumper. It would have to be gauged correctly so that we don't build up to much juice before dumping but it's worth giving a try. I have some more photo resistors on the way and I got a variety of sizes so I will tinker with it and let you know how that goes. ---Bob

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by BobZilla View Post
    Hi Patrick,
    I'm not sure what you mean, couldn't find what John said. Was it in another thread by chance?

    I am thinking that I may be able to use this same method as a cap dumper instead of a trigger pulse. I have not tried it yet but I don't see why we couldn't place the photo resistors between a cap and the load and have a cap dumper. It would have to be gauged correctly so that we don't build up to much juice before dumping but it's worth giving a try. I have some more photo resistors on the way and I got a variety of sizes so I will tinker with it and let you know how that goes. ---Bob


    Thread: Solid state SSG

    excerpt:

    "My idea is to basically hook up a cap pulser to the output and measure the time it takes to charge the cap against the draw current. For example, if it takes 1 second to charge a cap at a draw of 1A that would calculate out to an "X" of 1.0" - John Koorn (post #34)

    Wouldn't it be nice if there was a chip that's sole purpose was to "cap-dump", and we could set the top and bottom w/ a pot or dip switch. Seems simple enough.

    I hope the weekend is finding you all well and in good health.
    Patrick A.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Tom C's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by min2oly View Post
    Thread: Solid state SSG

    excerpt:

    "My idea is to basically hook up a cap pulser to the output and measure the time it takes to charge the cap against the draw current. For example, if it takes 1 second to charge a cap at a draw of 1A that would calculate out to an "X" of 1.0" - John Koorn (post #34)

    Wouldn't it be nice if there was a chip that's sole purpose was to "cap-dump", and we could set the top and bottom w/ a pot or dip switch. Seems simple enough.

    I hope the weekend is finding you all well and in good health.
    Patrick A.
    yea like the comparator does

    Tom C


    experimental Kits, chargers and solar trackers

  6. #26
    The experiment continues….

    So I had done a side experiment using the photo resistors in a cap dumping circuit to see how well that may work. The results were pretty good so I decided to put what I learned to use on this system. There is another thread about the cap dump experiment if anyone is interested in that.

    The cap dump I built for the experiment was designed a bit differently but the principal idea of using the photo resistors is the same. That circuit was meant to be a clip on unit that could be added to any existing radiant charger but for this addition to my SS I built in in permanently to the circuit. I am driving these dumpers with the same circuit I used on the trigger pulse, built with the 2n2222. There is a little energy cost on the front side to run these but the system is designed for larger batteries so anything I am using as a primary really shouldn’t get dragged down too much by a few LED’s, it’s just the cost of doing business with this design. I estimate about 20ma but they are flashing all the time so it’s difficult to get a good reading.

    Ok so I will not go over the whole idea again but the specifics of the added circuitry are as follows. There are two cap-dumps each is using four photo resistors in parallel to bring the full on resistance down low enough and also to distribute the current between them to avoid over heating. I have two of the same LED’s as before to activate them.

    Here is a shot of the chamber before I installed it. I used a plastic sauce cup and lined it with foil tape.

    chamber1.jpg

    Each leg of the machine is charging up 3000uf(2x 1500) 200V caps. I left leads on the top for clipping in meters and I could also expand the capacity by clipping in external parallel banks. For now I am just running it with what I put onboard. There is a 1n007 diode coming off the positive towards the battery and the photo resistors are in-line on the negative side. This allows the voltage to build up in the caps and then release as the LED’s flash.

    I have independent pots for each cap-dump so that I can adjust the frequency of the LED’s . Looking at the system as a whole I have a lot of adjustability in this thing now.


    There are four pots in total which control the following.

    1st the main pot on the motherboard. This adjusts the current amplitude.

    2nd the trigger frequency pot. This adjusts the flash rate for the trigger pulse.

    3rd is cap 1 frequency. This controls the flash rate of cap dump1. It allows for adjusting the dump rate so that voltage can be fine tuned on the dump.

    4th is cap dump 2 frequency. Same as cap dump1

    With so many adjustable points this system can be run in many ways and I am just now starting to get a feel for what it likes. All of the flashers can go from around 1 pulse per second all the way up to very fast like a strobe light. I can over drive the cap dumps to where the LED’s stay on brightly if I want but that was more of an accident, still it does run that way if I want it too.

    On the machine itself I did parallel the power coils 2 per transistor so we have 4 power coils (200ft each 18AWG) total but distributed in pairs to two transistors. The output is still in branch mode to the segregated cap dumps.


    I have been testing with small batteries to get a feel for how to adjust this thing and it charges little 17AH, 5AH really well. Next I am going to make some runs on the big batteries and I will post that. I will run a two for one just as the previous runs in this thread and we can compare.


    Here is a shot of the board with all of the modifications.

    BobSS_wcdump1.jpg


    Thanks-----Bob
    Last edited by BobZilla; 07-08-2013 at 05:16 AM.

  7. #27

    What's wrong with this picture

    C-E 5800ohm.pdfC-E 100ohm.pdfB-E 100ohm.pdfB-E 5800ohm.pdf

    Hi,
    I am building SSG.
    ~ 130ft (8x23awg + 1x26awg)
    - matched MJL21194, 100ohm base resistance, 1N4007's
    -5K pot +100ohm resistance // 10uf,250V....my 5k pot is more like 5.7 k

    Now comes the tuning: I am shooting for that elusive square wave. I am following Patrick's steps but I don't even see the transistor ON time, OFF time.
    Attached are my osci screen shots.
    I am measuring (C to E) and (B to E) when:
    1) the pot is fully open i.e total resistance=5.8Kohm
    2) when the pot is closed i.e total resistance= 100 ohm

    Please look at my screen shots and tell me what I am doing wrong

    Thank you

    NoFear.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  8. #28

  9. #29

    Battery swapper

    Here is a circuit you could use for your design. It should work for any Bedini circuit using batteries that use radiant energy charging. BatswoppersetoutwithLED.jpg
    I listen to Alex Jones and I fight against the New World Order. Are you a flouride head? Великий Белый Волшебник

  10. #30
    Hey Patrick,
    I was hoping your answer my post. So that's great.

    So yes it is air core and I have a diodes emitter to base of course. And one on the trigger circuit following the pot/cap combo, leading up to all the trans bases. Make sense?? my 100ohm is 1/2W I beleive. They are not hot to the touch nore are my transistor, never above ambient temperature.
    One more thing I didn't mention that could be relevant. I drive my circuit off a power supply...some time in parallel with a battery.


    So you believe that my trigger current is low hence adding the 26awg wire. What would increasing the base resistance from 100 to 200 or 300 do, reduce the base current? voltage? I'll try everything you suggested and I'll try to rationalize it later
    Where would you put the Osci pickups to measure the transistor on time/off time????
    Thanks for your continuous support.
    NoFear

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