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Thread: Plasma Ignition | Plasma Jet Ignition

  1. #831
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    Thank you, Hellenic.
    That shows the distributor points input on terminal 2 and all component values are listed except the transformer which appears to be running about 3377Hz based on the resistor and capacitor values on the 555.

    Newark.com has a 1,200v 15 amp (110 amp surge) diode rated 20ns for $5.56, and that's the best speed I see anywhere in that range of amps and current with a forward drop a bit on the high side at 4.04 volts. Part number: DSEP15-12CR
    The p600 I saw was rated 2.5 microseconds so the DSEP15-12CR is about 125 times faster (2,500ns/20ns=125). An depth search would likely produce some more ideal parameters such as lower forward voltage drop and lower cost.

    Richard Gieser
    Thank you.

  2. #832
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellenic Vanagon View Post
    The first results with the modified NGK are:

    #1 2.8% reduction in fuel consumption.
    #2 misfiring at high revs.
    The misfiring problem solved by replacing the main high voltage cable, ignition coil to distributor, with a DIY color tv, solid core, copper, cable, (the same applied to connect my plasma with the spark plugs), with the lowest possible, suppressor, limit , for a BOSCH electronic ignition, of 2 kΩ.

    So, some, underground, discussions about the superiority of the tv cable vs the various spark plugs cables, (not the carbons which are the worst), seems to be right.
    Last edited by Hellenic Vanagon; 06-19-2018 at 10:55 AM.

  3. #833
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellenic Vanagon View Post
    Now I am in position to confirm it: the diodes 6A 1000v are slow and do not permit the plasma discharge above a middle rpm limit.
    In a diode chain, you have to consider the cumulative (series) time; individually they are speedy, but clamp time of each diode x number of diodes adds up. it's a lot of energy at the speed of light.
    Last edited by heysoundude; 06-27-2018 at 07:51 AM. Reason: clarity

  4. #834
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellenic Vanagon View Post
    The misfiring problem solved by replacing the main high voltage cable, ignition coil to distributor, with a DIY color tv, solid core, copper, cable, (the same applied to connect my plasma with the spark plugs), with the lowest possible, suppressor, limit , for a BOSCH electronic ignition, of 2 kΩ.

    So, some, underground, discussions about the superiority of the tv cable vs the various spark plugs cables, (not the carbons which are the worst), seems to be right.
    It's bigger than that: you're finding a more reliable, repeatable, stable plasma across engine range with some resistance in the circuit? if so, I'd expect a zero resistance cable like the Granatellis discussed earlier plus a low resistance spark plug should work too, no? Get as much of the ignition energy as fast as possible to where it belongs is the name of the game here, to be able to time the power stroke most efficiently.

    Also, @Hellenic Vanagon, does this engine rely on a MAP sensor for fuel delivery?
    Last edited by heysoundude; 06-27-2018 at 07:54 AM. Reason: further thoughts

  5. #835
    Networking Architect Aaron Murakami's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heysoundude View Post
    It's bigger than that: you're finding a more reliable, repeatable, stable plasma across engine range with some resistance in the circuit? if so, I'd expect a zero resistance cable like the Granatellis discussed earlier plus a low resistance spark plug should work too, no? Get as much of the ignition energy as fast as possible to where it belongs is the name of the game here, to be able to time the power stroke most efficiently.

    Also, @Hellenic Vanagon, does this engine rely on a MAP sensor for fuel delivery?
    That is for sure.

    Literally, 99% of a typical ignition coil spark energy is lost in the cable and plug resistance.

    Granatelli's are great. Worked perfect on my old Datsun.

    With the zero ohm cables on my Subaru, the tachometer went screwy and the idle went crazy but not everyone has that problem. With lower resistance wires and non-resistance cables, plasma worked well on the Subaru.
    Aaron Murakami





    You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete. ― Richard Buckminster Fuller

  6. #836
    Aaron, I take it that Mr Vanagon wanted to delve into the where and how much resistance is appropriate for each circuit; realistically, everyone will have to sort that out for themselves per application I think. While the videos and and your book stress that plasma can't happen with any resistance in the circuit, Vanagon seems to be proving otherwise for his application, which can't be the only one. And I think this is awesome - because if we're saving the air/planet, there should be no hard and fast rules other than "do whatever it takes for you."

    And while we're on the topic of wires, I stumbled across a video on youtube that seems to lend credence to leaving resistors in plugs: https://youtu.be/0dFwoJIdNys
    Manufacturer's website is http://www.best-itech.com/index.htm where they say that R-type plugs work just fine with their product...something to do with the cable insulation and the connectors/clips on the ends of the cables
    Last edited by heysoundude; 06-28-2018 at 10:30 AM.

  7. #837
    Networking Architect Aaron Murakami's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heysoundude View Post
    Aaron, I take it that Mr Vanagon wanted to delve into the where and how much resistance is appropriate for each circuit; realistically, everyone will have to sort that out for themselves per application I think. While the videos and and your book stress that plasma can't happen with any resistance in the circuit, Vanagon seems to be proving otherwise for his application, which can't be the only one. And I think this is awesome - because if we're saving the air/planet, there should be no hard and fast rules other than "do whatever it takes for you."

    And while we're on the topic of wires, I stumbled across a video on youtube that seems to lend credence to leaving resistors in plugs: https://youtu.be/0dFwoJIdNys
    Manufacturer's website is http://www.best-itech.com/index.htm where they say that R-type plugs work just fine with their product...something to do with the cable insulation and the connectors/clips on the ends of the cables
    "THE" ideal situation is 0 ohms. Any resistances and impedances in a circuit destroy much of the radiant energy.

    The diodes go from the coil + connected to the cap + in the msd/cdi units straight to the top of the spark plug. That bypasses the cables so actually you can use stock high resistance cables that might be 5.5k ohms of resistance since the cap in the plug bypasses that and goes straight over the spark on the plug.

    However, the advantage with lower or no resistance cables is there will be a much stronger initiating spark created by the hv output of the ignition coil. It is still a CDI/MSD spark and is already stronger than 12v input ignition coil spark, but so much of it gets dissipated by the resistance of the cables. Might as well get what you pay for and go as low of resistance as possible without causing computer interference. On old carb cars, Granatellis are probably best.

    The stock plugs are typically around 5.5k ohms as well just like the cables so normally that is around 11k ohms, which is a lot. The secondary in typical black body canister ignition coils are around 10.5k ohms so not sure if that is intentional where they are matching the resistance.

    In summary:

    1. 0 ohm plugs or close to that as possible are necessary so as not to resist the discharge of the cap across it no matter what kind of situation.

    2. Use as low of resistance cables as possible so as not to interfere with on board computers, etc. At minimum, performance cables intended for CDI/MSD ignitions on computer cars is preferrable and on non computer cars, Granatelli is probably best.
    Aaron Murakami





    You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete. ― Richard Buckminster Fuller

  8. #838
    Senior Member Faraday88's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron Murakami View Post
    "THE" ideal situation is 0 ohms. Any resistances and impedances in a circuit destroy much of the radiant energy.

    The diodes go from the coil + connected to the cap + in the msd/cdi units straight to the top of the spark plug. That bypasses the cables so actually you can use stock high resistance cables that might be 5.5k ohms of resistance since the cap in the plug bypasses that and goes straight over the spark on the plug.

    However, the advantage with lower or no resistance cables is there will be a much stronger initiating spark created by the hv output of the ignition coil. It is still a CDI/MSD spark and is already stronger than 12v input ignition coil spark, but so much of it gets dissipated by the resistance of the cables. Might as well get what you pay for and go as low of resistance as possible without causing computer interference. On old carb cars, Granatellis are probably best.

    The stock plugs are typically around 5.5k ohms as well just like the cables so normally that is around 11k ohms, which is a lot. The secondary in typical black body canister ignition coils are around 10.5k ohms so not sure if that is intentional where they are matching the resistance.

    In summary:

    1. 0 ohm plugs or close to that as possible are necessary so as not to resist the discharge of the cap across it no matter what kind of situation.

    2. Use as low of resistance cables as possible so as not to interfere with on board computers, etc. At minimum, performance cables intended for CDI/MSD ignitions on computer cars is preferrable and on non computer cars, Granatelli is probably best.
    Hi Aaron,

    'high resistance cables that might be 5.5k ohms of resistance since the cap in the plug bypasses that and goes straight over the spark on the plug. '
    Just wondering how can the cable be of such a high resistance? are you referring to the internal resistor in the plug?
    I guess it is either the coil resistance(secondary) or the plug resistor that you are referring to.
    Rgds,
    Faraday88.
    'The Magnetic Field is the gatekeeper of the Wheather on the Earth'' - John Bedini.

  9. #839
    Networking Architect Aaron Murakami's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faraday88 View Post
    Hi Aaron,

    'high resistance cables that might be 5.5k ohms of resistance since the cap in the plug bypasses that and goes straight over the spark on the plug. '
    Just wondering how can the cable be of such a high resistance? are you referring to the internal resistor in the plug?
    I guess it is either the coil resistance(secondary) or the plug resistor that you are referring to.
    Rgds,
    Faraday88.
    I'm referring to the high resistance (5.5k ohm) of common ignition cables going from distributor cap to plug for example. If coil on plug style, lower resistance since the cable doesn't exist.

    The typical plug has about 5.5k ohm of resistance as well.

    Watch for about 1 minute from this point:
    https://youtu.be/bqNVH6LM4W0?t=4m11s

    Cables, even these semi-performance cables, are 5.5k ohms.
    Aaron Murakami





    You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete. ― Richard Buckminster Fuller

  10. #840
    Networking Architect Aaron Murakami's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    Hi Aaron,

    'high resistance cables that might be 5.5k ohms of resistance since the cap in the plug bypasses that and goes straight over the spark on the plug. '
    Just wondering how can the cable be of such a high resistance? are you referring to the internal resistor in the plug?
    I guess it is either the coil resistance(secondary) or the plug resistor that you are referring to.
    Rgds,
    Faraday88.


    Yes, a little sketch would be nice, Aaron. That statement was a bit confusing and appears to be not what you intended.

    Also, in regards to the high voltage circuit resistance (in a system WITHOUT direct ignition), does anyone have any idea what the air gap is in the typical distributor between the rotor and the distributor cap conducting surfaces? There must be some air gap or the rotor would be rubbing and I've never seen rub marks in that area. And how would this air gap compare to the resistance in the rest of the HV circuit? We also have the secondary resistance of the coil which is around 7 ohms DC but the inductive reactance brings that WAY up, especially considering the fast rise time of the spike we want.

    Richard Gieser
    Richard,

    I just posted a link to Faraday88 going to a section in a vid showing 5.5k ohms on a typical ignition cable that would go from distributor to plug.

    I've never seen a secondary on a coil at 7 ohms. Stock ignition coils have a secondary that are about usually about 7.5k - 10.5k ohms. Most that I've seen are 10.5k ohms. Did you mean 7k ohms?

    I've used a number of these coils: 0.32 ohms primary, don't recall secondary resistance at the moment: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...SIN=B002Q363XM

    For my high voltage n-machine experiment, I used this: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...SIN=B0006302P4

    That has 0.016 ohms primary and I don't recall the secondary resistance on these either.

    In either case, both of these coils have seriously fast rise times.
    Aaron Murakami





    You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete. ― Richard Buckminster Fuller

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