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Thread: Plasma Ignition | Plasma Jet Ignition

  1. #781
    100 + km after, the plasma ignition works, as we can see in this picture:

    IMG_20180411_133527.jpg

    All the residue between the ground circumference and the central electrode is burned, (which is not the case before plasma).

    But here are my first measurements:

    #1 Emissions: no change.
    #2 Consumption: no change.

    The next strange phenomena are observed:

    #1 Black soot on the surface of the spark plugs.
    #2 The fuel supply seems to be inadequate, as if the fuel pump works intermittently, at acceleration.

    Are these because the ECU corrects a supposed to be lean mixture?

    Any comments?

  2. #782
    Hi Hellenic Vanagon,

    #1 - Black soot is from too cold of a heat range plug and/or too rich of a fuel mix. These plugs do run very cold and the ECU is probably also dumping in too much fuel.

    #2 - If you did in fact do something to lean out the mixture, the ECU is probably trying to compensate for it and adding too much fuel - especially under acceleration. It may also be misfiring (shorting out) under load due to too much carbon.

    #3 - Try using the regular non-resistor plug for this engine gaped at .070" and see if it helps.
    Gary Hammond,

  3. #783
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Hammond View Post
    Hi Hellenic Vanagon,

    #1 - Black soot is from too cold of a heat range plug and/or too rich of a fuel mix. These plugs do run very cold and the ECU is probably also dumping in too much fuel.

    #2 - If you did in fact do something to lean out the mixture, the ECU is probably trying to compensate for it and adding too much fuel - especially under acceleration. It may also be misfiring (shorting out) under load due to too much carbon.

    #3 - Try using the regular non-resistor plug for this engine gaped at .070" and see if it helps.
    Hi Garry.

    Thank you for your answer.

    There is just one factor changed from the previous, perfect almost, situation: the plasma adding.

    I am trying to make adjustments to the system, keeping the benchmarks, in order to see the influence of the plasma in the specific setup.

    One positive point, for the moment I hope so, is that there is no fouling of the spark plugs any more, in the case of a delayed starting of the engine, which may happen under specific circumstances.

    Any way, I am going to fight against the ECU, ("mr. Digifant"), in order to persuade him for a, slightly, leaner mixture.

  4. #784
    Hi Hellenic Vanagon,

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellenic Vanagon View Post
    .......................... Any way, I am going to fight against the ECU, ("mr. Digifant"), in order to persuade him for a, slightly, leaner mixture.
    I don't know what vehicle you have from your postings, but maybe you could try inserting a pot in the mass airflow wiring. I remember on the 1997 Thunderbird I used to have, that the resistor element in the mass airflow sensor got dirty and caused the engine to lean way out. This one had a wire wound resistor that heated up and was cooled down by the intake air flowing over it. But because it was dirty, it didn't cool down as much as it should have for a given air flow. This resulted in the computer seeing too much resistance in the sensor, which caused it to run lean (not enough fuel). For some reason the oxygen sensors in the exhaust stream didn't recognize the lean condition.

    EFI systems do vary between manufacturers, so don't know if this would help or not on your particular application. It would be easy enough to try.

    P.S. - I just thought of one other thing. If you changed the plug wires to solid wires, the EMI may be messing with the computer. I'm using magnetic suppression plug wires (solid wire wrapped around a magnetic core) that measure 350 ohms per foot. These still allow a good strong plasma effect while also cutting down on the EMI emitted.
    Last edited by Gary Hammond; 05-11-2018 at 08:18 AM. Reason: add post script
    Gary Hammond,

  5. #785
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Hammond View Post
    Hi Hellenic Vanagon,



    I don't know what vehicle you have from your postings, but maybe you could try inserting a pot in the mass airflow wiring. I remember on the 1987 Thunderbird I used to have, that the resistor element in the mass airflow sensor got dirty and caused the engine to lean way out. This one had a wire wound resistor that heated up and was cooled down by the intake air flowing over it. But because it was dirty, it didn't cool down as much as it should have for a given air flow. This resulted in the computer seeing too much resistance in the sensor, which caused it to run lean (not enough fuel). For some reason the oxygen sensors in the exhaust stream didn't recognize the lean condition.

    EFI systems do vary between manufacturers, so don't know if this would help or not on your particular application. It would be easy enough to try.

    P.S. - I just thought of one other thing. If you changed the plug wires to solid wires, the EMI may be messing with the computer. I'm using magnetic suppression plug wires (solid wire wrapped around a magnetic core) that measure 350 ohms per foot. These still allow a good strong plasma effect while also cutting down on the EMI emitted.
    #1 This is my vehicle: http://www.vwsyncro.eu/p/blog-page_72.html

    #2 The engine is a vw g60 without MAF but with MAP sensor.

    #3 It does have a copot of a double duty: temperature and velocity of the incoming air. It is adjustable taking values between 300-2000 Ω, (somewhere 500 Ω the original value).

    This is the one of the two channels, (or three), for leaning the fuel mix.

    #4 The wires are the standard vw solid wires with resistors. Struggling for a hotter spark, (pre plasma era), the resistors kept in the minimum required for the optimum system operation, (2 Ω).

    The plasma wires are common tv coaxial cable, having the option for grounding, in order to reduce the EMI/RFI plasma radiation. Having exactly the same problems even if the plasma is off, the grounding idea is postponed a little bit, although the system needs some time to fall from the plasma on to the plasma off operation.

    #5 With an antenna into the engine bay, I was able to trigger the plasma unit, in a practical attempt to see the areas, (into the bay), with the highest radiation. The position where the ECU sits seems to be at the less affected point.
    After a little work with the cables, (better soldering, avoiding short circuiting the aluminum grounding shield of the tv cables to the main conductor), the EMI/RFI radiation is not present any more to my radio reception.

    Anyway, trying to isolate the factors, I have to check anything.

  6. #786
    Networking Architect Aaron Murakami's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Hammond View Post
    try inserting a pot in the mass airflow wiring. I remember on the 1987 Thunderbird I used to have, that the resistor element in the mass airflow sensor got dirty and caused the engine to lean way out. This one had a wire wound resistor that heated up and was cooled down by the intake air flowing over it. But because it was dirty, it didn't cool down as much as it should have for a given air flow. This resulted in the computer seeing too much resistance in the sensor, which caused it to run lean (not enough fuel). For some reason the oxygen sensors in the exhaust stream didn't recognize the lean condition.

    EFI systems do vary between manufacturers, so don't know if this would help or not on your particular application. It would be easy enough to try.

    P.S. - I just thought of one other thing. If you changed the plug wires to solid wires, the EMI may be messing with the computer. I'm using magnetic suppression plug wires (solid wire wrapped around a magnetic core) that measure 350 ohms per foot. These still allow a good strong plasma effect while also cutting down on the EMI emitted.
    The mass airflow sensor can definitely make it seem like the fuel pump is insufficient. On my Subaru, it got so dirty it was like the engine was running on 1 piston.

    Have you found that a simple pot in series actually works? I've seen those diagrams on the net for years and have seen some posts by others saying it doesn't work, etc. but I've never tried it - it is definitely one of the simplest mods I've ever seen for fuel computer circuit mods. Only circuit mod I've done before are the o2 sensor circuits that use a LED driver to receive the signal from the o2 sensor and it drops the voltage of it before sending it to the fuel computer to keep it leaned out. I didn't do that on my Subaru, but on my old Honda Civic. With my Subaru, I only used a Volo circuit hard wired into my obdii port and that supposedly leans it out a bit.

    @Hellenic, you can buy some mass airflow sensor spray in a can at any local auto parts store. I removed my MAF sensor box and used probably half the can (unnecessary to use that much), but when I hooked it back up, engine was back to normal. It's surprising how much difference it made.
    Aaron Murakami





    You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete. ― Richard Buckminster Fuller

  7. #787
    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron Murakami View Post
    The mass airflow sensor can definitely make it seem like the fuel pump is insufficient. On my Subaru, it got so dirty it was like the engine was running on 1 piston.

    Have you found that a simple pot in series actually works? I've seen those diagrams on the net for years and have seen some posts by others saying it doesn't work, etc. but I've never tried it - it is definitely one of the simplest mods I've ever seen for fuel computer circuit mods. Only circuit mod I've done before are the o2 sensor circuits that use a LED driver to receive the signal from the o2 sensor and it drops the voltage of it before sending it to the fuel computer to keep it leaned out. I didn't do that on my Subaru, but on my old Honda Civic. With my Subaru, I only used a Volo circuit hard wired into my obdii port and that supposedly leans it out a bit.

    @Hellenic, you can buy some mass airflow sensor spray in a can at any local auto parts store. I removed my MAF sensor box and used probably half the can (unnecessary to use that much), but when I hooked it back up, engine was back to normal. It's surprising how much difference it made.
    Interesting idea. Thank you very much. I' ll do it.

  8. #788
    Networking Architect Aaron Murakami's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    Is your Plasma Ignition ebook still available?
    I'm having difficulty figuring out how to order it.
    Hi Richard,

    Yes, at http://ignitionsecrets.com

    You can find the buy buttons about 90% down from the top of the page.

    First one is basic package.

    Second one is just for wasted spark ignition systems like coil packs where the secondary is isolated from the primary and half the HV output is positive and the other side HV output is negative.

    Third one is a combo of both of those.
    Aaron Murakami





    You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete. ― Richard Buckminster Fuller

  9. #789
    Hi Aaron,
    I have a 1996 Toyota Tacoma PU with 2.4L 2RZFE ENGINE, I have already modified the spark plug connectors to have direct contact to the plugs. I also have converted the cap to an external coil which I can convert back if necessary? What will be a good unit to buy to make the plasma and what will be the schematic to use for the circuit connections?
    Thanks,
    Ron

  10. #790
    Networking Architect Aaron Murakami's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rokan View Post
    Hi Aaron,
    I have a 1996 Toyota Tacoma PU with 2.4L 2RZFE ENGINE, I have already modified the spark plug connectors to have direct contact to the plugs. I also have converted the cap to an external coil which I can convert back if necessary? What will be a good unit to buy to make the plasma and what will be the schematic to use for the circuit connections?
    Thanks,
    Ron
    Hi Ron,

    As you mentioned in the emails there isn't a MSD type unit specific to the 2RZFE. However, many units like the budget MSD model Street Fire is universal and can be used on most 4, 6 or 8 cylinder engines as can the other MSD units. Very few are engine specific but are for a general type of engine. Dis-2 or 4 or whatever I used in my Subaru are for distributorless, the Street Fire can be used for points or electronic ignition that use a autotransformer coil with normal primary inputs and a high voltage output, etc.

    The cap you mention isn't needed because if you can hook up a CDI/MSD to your engine, the cap in that unit gets discharged into the primary of your ignition coil so you have a corresponding stepup in the high voltage output that increases. So instead of 12 volts going to the primary, you'll have 400-500 volts to the primary from a low capacitance capacitor. The Street Fire unit has 89 milijoules per discharge I believe and you can find up to the 135-150 range or so.

    Can you post a picture of your ignition coil and the cables that connect to the plugs?
    Aaron Murakami





    You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete. ― Richard Buckminster Fuller

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