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Thread: Plasma Ignition | Plasma Jet Ignition

  1. #781
    Senior Member Faraday88's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron Murakami View Post
    It does matter where you connect the diode. If you connect the diode from the coil to the top of a plug cable, any resistance in that line will eat up a lot of the potential from the capacitor. If you have too much resistance in the cable, you won't get any plasma at all. But if you connect it directly to the top of a plug, you eliminate all that resistance and wind up with as many joules as possible at the plug gap.

    MSD's statement about solid core wires is because they are expecting the entire cap to be discharged into the primary because that is all they know. We're not doing that so it doesn't matter what they think.

    Your belief that the whole cap has to discharge into the primary is not uncommon, but it is incorrect and this actually goes to the heart of my circuit, which is in the patent and is why my method of using the SAME CAPACITOR for BOTH the primary power source AND the low voltage high current source to jump the gap is the ONLY significant innovation in ignition history since the invention of the plasma jet ignition systems to begin with. It is also the most elegant in terms of being the simplest solution to create a plasma ignition since you do not need a separate cap charging circuit that charges a cap for the sole purpose of jumping the gap through a diode while still needing. You need a cap charging circuit for the plasma so the simplest solution is to purchase any off the shelf cdi or msd, add diodes and you're done. This obsoleted millions of dollars in patents filed by all the auto manufacturers, etc. over the last few decades who never understood that a single cap can be used for both.

    If you connect the 400 volt cap to the primary and only let 1% of that capacitor discharge into the primary, you are STILL hitting the primary with 400 volts - just with less current. You do NOT need the entire capacitor to discharge in order for the primary to see 400 volts, it is automatically already there whether you use 1% of the cap or 100% of the cap - the extra capacitance will not add any more voltage than is already there, the extra capacitance will just add more current and more current is not necessary to make a spark - voltage is comes first and once it breaks down the gap resistance, then current will flow and it takes almost nothing to ionize that gap so that it is conductive enough to have a low voltage cap discharge over it.

    As soon as the spark is made and the gap is ionized, 99% of whatever percentage of that cap will then discharge over the gap just fine. This is what makes my method unique - it flies in the face of what "everyone" thought was possible because countless people believe that the entire cap has to discharge to the primary including "experts" at NASA, JPL, Princeton, all the auto manufacturers and many plug manufacturers.

    I did this on the bench with a MSD 6AL about 10 years ago just to test it then I gave it back to the person who loaned it to me. It doesn't matter the model because it works the same on every single one. The exception is if there is a wasted spark ignition that uses a coil pack where the primary and secondary are isolated from each other and half the pack has high voltage positive and the other side is high voltage negative. Everyone said I couldn't make my plasma method work on that too, but I did it and even did a whole presentation on this to prove it.

    The only other consideration is the direction the diode is pointing and that is determined by the polarity of the HV output from the coil.

    Here is a MSD Street Fire MSD on a Datsun - Street Fire is MSD's budget line but doesn't matter, I made it work on their higher end units as well.

    I say 98 mj in the cap in that unit in the vid, but I believe it is 89.



    You will see that I'm using the same capacitor in the MSD to charge the primary of the ignition coil and it is simultaneously being used as the low voltage source that goes through a diode to the top of a plug.

    Did you purchase my Ignition Secrets package? I have a lot of videos in there showing a lot of bench tests where a single cap is used to charge the primary and is also used to jump the gap through the diode. Not sure why you would have any doubts - there is a ton of evidence in that package.
    Hi Aaron,
    I have followed your methods for all these years through its developmental phases.
    especially when it corelates with CSET of EV Gray and your 'Triple' point method for initiating the Plasma spark over.
    Next step is 'Tesla Impulse Technology ' applicable here...what say?? or is that already at work in your Pulsed Plasma Jet Engine??
    the kolstermann 's Pulser Plasma Engine.https://youtu.be/lNSAXbZfnbE
    as per understanding EV gray enterprises also discovered that they could do away with the 'Load Inductance' and that the Explosive force could well be generated within the intrinsic associated Plasma coupling..and this is in essence a spin off to the kolsermann's Pulser Plasma Engine..(ofcourse the Pappa Engine as well)..
    look how Synchronicity brings both Gray team and the Papp team to contend for the fascination car venture at that time..
    Best Regards,
    Faraday88.
    Last edited by Faraday88; 04-09-2018 at 01:33 AM. Reason: correction
    'Teaching can endure a quest for knowledge..but Learning solves an anomaly'

  2. #782
    100 + km after, the plasma ignition works, as we can see in this picture:

    IMG_20180411_133527.jpg

    All the residue between the ground circumference and the central electrode is burned, (which is not the case before plasma).

    But here are my first measurements:

    #1 Emissions: no change.
    #2 Consumption: no change.

    The next strange phenomena are observed:

    #1 Black soot on the surface of the spark plugs.
    #2 The fuel supply seems to be inadequate, as if the fuel pump works intermittently, at acceleration.

    Are these because the ECU corrects a supposed to be lean mixture?

    Any comments?

  3. #783
    Hi Hellenic Vanagon,

    #1 - Black soot is from too cold of a heat range plug and/or too rich of a fuel mix. These plugs do run very cold and the ECU is probably also dumping in too much fuel.

    #2 - If you did in fact do something to lean out the mixture, the ECU is probably trying to compensate for it and adding too much fuel - especially under acceleration. It may also be misfiring (shorting out) under load due to too much carbon.

    #3 - Try using the regular non-resistor plug for this engine gaped at .070" and see if it helps.
    Gary Hammond,

  4. #784
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Hammond View Post
    Hi Hellenic Vanagon,

    #1 - Black soot is from too cold of a heat range plug and/or too rich of a fuel mix. These plugs do run very cold and the ECU is probably also dumping in too much fuel.

    #2 - If you did in fact do something to lean out the mixture, the ECU is probably trying to compensate for it and adding too much fuel - especially under acceleration. It may also be misfiring (shorting out) under load due to too much carbon.

    #3 - Try using the regular non-resistor plug for this engine gaped at .070" and see if it helps.
    Hi Garry.

    Thank you for your answer.

    There is just one factor changed from the previous, perfect almost, situation: the plasma adding.

    I am trying to make adjustments to the system, keeping the benchmarks, in order to see the influence of the plasma in the specific setup.

    One positive point, for the moment I hope so, is that there is no fouling of the spark plugs any more, in the case of a delayed starting of the engine, which may happen under specific circumstances.

    Any way, I am going to fight against the ECU, ("mr. Digifant"), in order to persuade him for a, slightly, leaner mixture.

  5. #785
    Hi Hellenic Vanagon,

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellenic Vanagon View Post
    .......................... Any way, I am going to fight against the ECU, ("mr. Digifant"), in order to persuade him for a, slightly, leaner mixture.
    I don't know what vehicle you have from your postings, but maybe you could try inserting a pot in the mass airflow wiring. I remember on the 1987 Thunderbird I used to have, that the resistor element in the mass airflow sensor got dirty and caused the engine to lean way out. This one had a wire wound resistor that heated up and was cooled down by the intake air flowing over it. But because it was dirty, it didn't cool down as much as it should have for a given air flow. This resulted in the computer seeing too much resistance in the sensor, which caused it to run lean (not enough fuel). For some reason the oxygen sensors in the exhaust stream didn't recognize the lean condition.

    EFI systems do vary between manufacturers, so don't know if this would help or not on your particular application. It would be easy enough to try.

    P.S. - I just thought of one other thing. If you changed the plug wires to solid wires, the EMI may be messing with the computer. I'm using magnetic suppression plug wires (solid wire wrapped around a magnetic core) that measure 350 ohms per foot. These still allow a good strong plasma effect while also cutting down on the EMI emitted.
    Last edited by Gary Hammond; 04-12-2018 at 11:08 AM. Reason: add post script
    Gary Hammond,

  6. #786
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron Murakami View Post
    1. Were the caps going from the top of the plug to the engine ground? If so, then you are trying to simply add peaking caps to the plug. With 3 in series, probably too much capacitance and sucked up all the spark so there isn't anything to jump the gap.

    2. On the MSD with diodes, the diode needs to go from positive of primary of coil directly to the top of the plug bypassing the entire distributor and cable or the resistances will eat it up. Also, you have to verify the polarity of the HV of your ignition coil. That will determine which direction the diodes need to be facing.
    Is your Plasma Ignition ebook still available?
    I'm having difficulty figuring out how to order it.

  7. #787
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Hammond View Post
    Hi Hellenic Vanagon,



    I don't know what vehicle you have from your postings, but maybe you could try inserting a pot in the mass airflow wiring. I remember on the 1987 Thunderbird I used to have, that the resistor element in the mass airflow sensor got dirty and caused the engine to lean way out. This one had a wire wound resistor that heated up and was cooled down by the intake air flowing over it. But because it was dirty, it didn't cool down as much as it should have for a given air flow. This resulted in the computer seeing too much resistance in the sensor, which caused it to run lean (not enough fuel). For some reason the oxygen sensors in the exhaust stream didn't recognize the lean condition.

    EFI systems do vary between manufacturers, so don't know if this would help or not on your particular application. It would be easy enough to try.

    P.S. - I just thought of one other thing. If you changed the plug wires to solid wires, the EMI may be messing with the computer. I'm using magnetic suppression plug wires (solid wire wrapped around a magnetic core) that measure 350 ohms per foot. These still allow a good strong plasma effect while also cutting down on the EMI emitted.
    #1 This is my vehicle: http://www.vwsyncro.eu/p/blog-page_72.html

    #2 The engine is a vw g60 without MAF but with MAP sensor.

    #3 It does have a copot of a double duty: temperature and velocity of the incoming air. It is adjustable taking values between 300-2000 Ω, (somewhere 500 Ω the original value).

    This is the one of the two channels, (or three), for leaning the fuel mix.

    #4 The wires are the standard vw solid wires with resistors. Struggling for a hotter spark, (pre plasma era), the resistors kept in the minimum required for the optimum system operation, (2 Ω).

    The plasma wires are common tv coaxial cable, having the option for grounding, in order to reduce the EMI/RFI plasma radiation. Having exactly the same problems even if the plasma is off, the grounding idea is postponed a little bit, although the system needs some time to fall from the plasma on to the plasma off operation.

    #5 With an antenna into the engine bay, I was able to trigger the plasma unit, in a practical attempt to see the areas, (into the bay), with the highest radiation. The position where the ECU sits seems to be at the less affected point.
    After a little work with the cables, (better soldering, avoiding short circuiting the aluminum grounding shield of the tv cables to the main conductor), the EMI/RFI radiation is not present any more to my radio reception.

    Anyway, trying to isolate the factors, I have to check anything.

  8. #788
    Networking Architect Aaron Murakami's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Hammond View Post
    try inserting a pot in the mass airflow wiring. I remember on the 1987 Thunderbird I used to have, that the resistor element in the mass airflow sensor got dirty and caused the engine to lean way out. This one had a wire wound resistor that heated up and was cooled down by the intake air flowing over it. But because it was dirty, it didn't cool down as much as it should have for a given air flow. This resulted in the computer seeing too much resistance in the sensor, which caused it to run lean (not enough fuel). For some reason the oxygen sensors in the exhaust stream didn't recognize the lean condition.

    EFI systems do vary between manufacturers, so don't know if this would help or not on your particular application. It would be easy enough to try.

    P.S. - I just thought of one other thing. If you changed the plug wires to solid wires, the EMI may be messing with the computer. I'm using magnetic suppression plug wires (solid wire wrapped around a magnetic core) that measure 350 ohms per foot. These still allow a good strong plasma effect while also cutting down on the EMI emitted.
    The mass airflow sensor can definitely make it seem like the fuel pump is insufficient. On my Subaru, it got so dirty it was like the engine was running on 1 piston.

    Have you found that a simple pot in series actually works? I've seen those diagrams on the net for years and have seen some posts by others saying it doesn't work, etc. but I've never tried it - it is definitely one of the simplest mods I've ever seen for fuel computer circuit mods. Only circuit mod I've done before are the o2 sensor circuits that use a LED driver to receive the signal from the o2 sensor and it drops the voltage of it before sending it to the fuel computer to keep it leaned out. I didn't do that on my Subaru, but on my old Honda Civic. With my Subaru, I only used a Volo circuit hard wired into my obdii port and that supposedly leans it out a bit.

    @Hellenic, you can buy some mass airflow sensor spray in a can at any local auto parts store. I removed my MAF sensor box and used probably half the can (unnecessary to use that much), but when I hooked it back up, engine was back to normal. It's surprising how much difference it made.
    Aaron Murakami





    You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete. ― Richard Buckminster Fuller

  9. #789
    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron Murakami View Post
    The mass airflow sensor can definitely make it seem like the fuel pump is insufficient. On my Subaru, it got so dirty it was like the engine was running on 1 piston.

    Have you found that a simple pot in series actually works? I've seen those diagrams on the net for years and have seen some posts by others saying it doesn't work, etc. but I've never tried it - it is definitely one of the simplest mods I've ever seen for fuel computer circuit mods. Only circuit mod I've done before are the o2 sensor circuits that use a LED driver to receive the signal from the o2 sensor and it drops the voltage of it before sending it to the fuel computer to keep it leaned out. I didn't do that on my Subaru, but on my old Honda Civic. With my Subaru, I only used a Volo circuit hard wired into my obdii port and that supposedly leans it out a bit.

    @Hellenic, you can buy some mass airflow sensor spray in a can at any local auto parts store. I removed my MAF sensor box and used probably half the can (unnecessary to use that much), but when I hooked it back up, engine was back to normal. It's surprising how much difference it made.
    Interesting idea. Thank you very much. I' ll do it.

  10. #790
    Networking Architect Aaron Murakami's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    Is your Plasma Ignition ebook still available?
    I'm having difficulty figuring out how to order it.
    Hi Richard,

    Yes, at http://ignitionsecrets.com

    You can find the buy buttons about 90% down from the top of the page.

    First one is basic package.

    Second one is just for wasted spark ignition systems like coil packs where the secondary is isolated from the primary and half the HV output is positive and the other side HV output is negative.

    Third one is a combo of both of those.
    Aaron Murakami





    You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete. ― Richard Buckminster Fuller

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