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Thread: Plasma Ignition | Plasma Jet Ignition

  1. #761
    Networking Architect Aaron Murakami's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theplummer View Post
    Dyno day today.

    Put the EnergyXciter on a 6/12 horse single cylinder engine that was developing 18.1Hp, The EnergyXciter raised the entire HP and torque curve, and resulted in almost 3/4 hp increase.

    Then I tried to add the capacitors (3) on the spark plug, as your book explains, and the engine would not fire. it's as if the capacitors were acting as a kill switch. I got frustrated by not being able to get the engine to fire, because I know you have. Is there some type of diode on the capacitor circuit, that I'm not seeing?

    Anyway, I added 10% distilled water to the methanol and got exactly the same hp/torque on the next pull. Except that the engine was running cooler. That's a good thing as these are air cooled engines and have to run 20 laps and heat is the enemy.

    I then jumped up to 30% water/methanol mix and the engine would idle but wouldn't accelerate under the load of the dyno. I didn't realize it till I was about half way back, that I was seeing a lean condition and should have increased jet size to accomodate. However, there are max rules in the class that would only allow .002 jet size increase before it would be illegal to run the engine.

    Tomorrow I'm dynoing a small block chevy on gas, and I want to try the diode plasma on it, but I could only get my hands on one diode.. Would it be alright to jump from the 12V side of the coil, through the single diode, then to the distributor wire? Or do I have to have independent diodes for each cylinder?
    What capacitor discharge ignition system do you have discharging a cap to the primary of the ignition coil?
    Aaron Murakami





    You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete. ― Richard Buckminster Fuller

  2. #762
    Networking Architect Aaron Murakami's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Hammond View Post
    The plasma ignition is definitely going on my Bradley GT very soon and then maybe even the fogger. The Bradley already has a MSD 6A box and hall effect pickup installed, so all I need to add are the diodes. Plus it's electronically fuel injected with dash tuneable control module and an air/fuel ratio meter, so I can experiment with lean burn as well.
    Glad you can adjust the fuel ratio too - what is the basic setup that you have to tune the injectors?
    Aaron Murakami





    You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete. ― Richard Buckminster Fuller

  3. #763
    Hi Aaron,

    Could you please tell me if you have a generator to be used in the video that is in this posting video?

    I have been working on fully vaporizing my gas and water with the hot manifold because of the high feat coming out of the cylinders which would make a dry steam and feed it into the engine with a plasma spark and the set up in this video looks like it could do the trick.

    Can you help me?

    Thank you
    Ron

    Originally Posted by Gary Hammond View Post
    Hi Aaron,

    Thanks for sharing your plasma method and 555 timer circuit with us. That was the inspiration for me to do this.



    NO, I haven't made an electrolyzer yet. I will first probably try adding propane to the pipe below the plug to see how that works.

    I'm also thinking about electrically ionizing the fog, then pulling it thru a couple of ring magnets, and next some pulsed coils and infrared LEDs similar to Walt's patent. Might have to add an electrolyzer as well just to see what happens.

    The plasma ignition is definitely going on my Bradley GT very soon and then maybe even the fogger. The Bradley already has a MSD 6A box and hall effect pickup installed, so all I need to add are the diodes. Plus it's electronically fuel injected with dash tuneable control module and an air/fuel ratio meter, so I can experiment with lean burn as well.

  4. #764
    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron Murakami View Post
    What capacitor discharge ignition system do you have discharging a cap to the primary of the ignition coil?
    If I understand the question correctly, It's using a stock stator style ignition, without any type of CDI.

    I think I may have figured out the problem, I used used caps off of a couple of hot tub circuit boards and believe I may have burnt them up removing them from the board. I need to check the resistance of the caps to see if there is any. The soldering iron I used wasn't very good and had to heat the caps up quite a bit to get them to release from the board. That's what I get for trying to use used parts.

    The ignition on the small block chevy is a typical MSD 6AL. I have one diode that you recommend. so, I was thinking about trying that one like a video I saw by attaching it directly from the charging side of the coil, to the distributor spark side. I suspect with a V8, that may be too fast a cycle time, and that's probably why you have one diode for each spark plug, but I'll give it a shot anyway, what do I have to lose?

  5. #765
    Hi Aaron,

    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron Murakami View Post
    Glad you can adjust the fuel ratio too - what is the basic setup that you have to tune the injectors?
    I have the "generation 1" fuel injection kit from CB Performance. They are now up to generation 4.

    The one I have runs in open loop and the dash mounted module controls the MAP signal to the ECU. The other ECU inputs are engine temp, throttle position, and RPM. There is no oxygen sensor feedback to the ECU. The fuel pressure is regulated mechanically by the manifold pressure. The dash control module has two adjusting knobs, one for low rpm (idle) and one for high rpm (full power). Here's a picture of the 4 generations. The dash module of the one I have is shown on the left as First Gen. I purchased it back in 2001.

    Gen4a.jpg

    Here's a picture of the engine it's installed on.

    wrapped-exhaust.jpg
    Last edited by Gary Hammond; 04-06-2018 at 09:50 AM. Reason: add more info
    Gary Hammond,

  6. #766
    Networking Architect Aaron Murakami's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theplummer View Post
    If I understand the question correctly, It's using a stock stator style ignition, without any type of CDI.

    I think I may have figured out the problem, I used used caps off of a couple of hot tub circuit boards and believe I may have burnt them up removing them from the board. I need to check the resistance of the caps to see if there is any. The soldering iron I used wasn't very good and had to heat the caps up quite a bit to get them to release from the board. That's what I get for trying to use used parts.

    The ignition on the small block chevy is a typical MSD 6AL. I have one diode that you recommend. so, I was thinking about trying that one like a video I saw by attaching it directly from the charging side of the coil, to the distributor spark side. I suspect with a V8, that may be too fast a cycle time, and that's probably why you have one diode for each spark plug, but I'll give it a shot anyway, what do I have to lose?
    You must use a cdi/msd before you can add the diodes - the diodes are simply directing the low voltage cap over the gap when it is ionized by the hv spark. There are msd/cdi units for v8's so they are not too fast. One diode per plug is to distribute the cap impulses through multiple diodes to extend their life - it isn't about timing. You can do all cylinders on a single diode, but the diode will get a serious workout. With the speed, the deal is that at low speeds, the ignition will trigger 6-7 times per cycle but at high RPM's it will gradually reduce until you only get one discharge per cycle. Or course this is with MSD (multiple spark discharge) - with a regular CDI, it will always be one single discharge per cycle.
    Aaron Murakami





    You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete. ― Richard Buckminster Fuller

  7. #767
    Networking Architect Aaron Murakami's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Hammar View Post
    Hi Aaron,

    Could you please tell me if you have a generator to be used in the video that is in this posting video?

    I have been working on fully vaporizing my gas and water with the hot manifold because of the high feat coming out of the cylinders which would make a dry steam and feed it into the engine with a plasma spark and the set up in this video looks like it could do the trick.
    Hi Ron,

    The video did not show up.
    Aaron Murakami





    You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete. ― Richard Buckminster Fuller

  8. #768
    Networking Architect Aaron Murakami's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Hammond View Post
    Hi Aaron,



    I have the "generation 1" fuel injection kit from CB Performance. They are now up to generation 4.

    The one I have runs in open loop and the dash mounted module controls the MAP signal to the ECU. The other ECU inputs are engine temp, throttle position, and RPM. There is no oxygen sensor feedback to the ECU. The fuel pressure is regulated mechanically by the manifold pressure. The dash control module has two adjusting knobs, one for low rpm (idle) and one for high rpm (full power). Here's a picture of the 4 generations. The dash module of the one I have is shown on the left as First Gen. I purchased it back in 2001.



    Here's a picture of the engine it's installed on.

    Thanks Gary,

    I'm getting a jet kit for my Weber on the Datsun to see how far I can lean and still get a temp drop. If it is too much of a pain, I might get a fuel injected throttle body and control it with the type of system you're using.
    Aaron Murakami





    You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete. ― Richard Buckminster Fuller

  9. #769
    My, (inductively trigered), mkII Plasma: (Are you ready?)

    Last edited by Hellenic Vanagon; 04-06-2018 at 02:20 PM.

  10. #770
    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron Murakami View Post
    You must use a cdi/msd before you can add the diodes - the diodes are simply directing the low voltage cap over the gap when it is ionized by the hv spark. There are msd/cdi units for v8's so they are not too fast. One diode per plug is to distribute the cap impulses through multiple diodes to extend their life - it isn't about timing. You can do all cylinders on a single diode, but the diode will get a serious workout. With the speed, the deal is that at low speeds, the ignition will trigger 6-7 times per cycle but at high RPM's it will gradually reduce until you only get one discharge per cycle. Or course this is with MSD (multiple spark discharge) - with a regular CDI, it will always be one single discharge per cycle.
    I suppose we must not be in sync with the two different situations. Allow me to clarify, just so we are both on the same page.

    Yesterdays dyno test was on a small garden tractor motor, without any type of capacitive discharge ignition. It had a simple stock style magnet on flywheel, to pickup coil. On that particular motor, I tried to take three small capacitors in series and connect them to the spark plug. The engine would not fire. The capacitors acted like a kill switch by grounding the top of the plug to the engine. I was told by another former member of this forum, that it's possible that the caps were bad, and that I should check to see if there is any resistance from one end of the cap string to the other. There was no resistance, by meter, I just got the OL on the meter. So that should have worked, but it didn't.

    Now, today's dyno test was on a small block Chevy, using a MSD 6AL, with a super blaster 2 coil. On this setup, I placed the recommended diode from the positive side of the input on the coil, to the coil to distributor wire. There was a timing light connected to spark plug #1. When I had the diode connected to to the coil as seen in multiple videos and from your information, I got no spark to plug #1, and the engine would not fire.

    I then checked for continuity and voltage between the input side of the coil, to ground, with ignition on and have no voltage or continuity. But the engine would start and run without the diode in place. I checked for continuity across the diode to see if it was bad and got no continuity in either direction when connecting a test light and a 12 volt battery.

    I then decided that maybe the engine needed to already be running before making the diode connection to the coil. So I placed the wire on the distributor side, but left the input side loose, I had ahold of the wire with a pair of rubber handled pliers, and when the engine fired, I got a shock from the coil, through the insulation and the rubber handles on the pliers. The shock was not devestating, I could hold it, but I was afraid of trying to make the connection to the coil and opted to have the engine shut off instead.

    What am I doing wrong with both of those scenerios?

    Now, the results of the dyno with the EnergyXciter. The small block performed best without the energyXciter with 39 degrees of timing advance. We placed the exiter on the batteries powering the MSD and starter (as always), installed halves of the energyXciter on each of the plug wires at the distributor cap, and placed the exciters around the fuel lines.

    The first pull with the timing at 39 degrees, lost 7hp. I then knew I needed to retard the timing as burning hydrogen in fuel makes the fuel ignite faster, so I retarded the timing 3 degrees. We immediately picked up what we had lost, and added another 2Hp to the pull. I then retarded the timing 2 more degrees and lost the 2hp that we had picked up.

    Later evaluation as to why we didn't see as big a gain as we normally see. We noticed that the engine builder had zip tied all the plug wires together from the back of the engine, under the headers. We believe this may have caused a harmonic that interfered with the effectiveness of the exciters on the plug wires.

    We also noticed that the fuel line was very short, so as to (possibly) not create enough friction (which is what powers the exiters) in the fuel due to a short fuel line. As well as the fuel line was a high pressure steel braided line that was very thick, and had steel braiding in between the layers of rubber hose.... No excuses, we aren't going to give up, we just believe this may have contributed to us not seeing the typical 5% power increase that we saw the previous day.

    My hopes are to figure out how to make the plasma ignition with both the CDI as well as non CDI work in conjunction with the energyXciters, to try to maximize their potential. This could lead to even running a engine totally on water, but I've got to get the ignition working first.

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