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Thread: Plasma Ignition | Plasma Jet Ignition

  1. #1081
    Thanks heysoundude

    The ignition module looks a lot like the one from global supply chain/parts bin :https://www.diyautotune.com/support/...stomer/gm-dis/
    I will have to check out the wiring schematics to see how the coil packs are controlled.

    That would be great if I did not have to buy an after market module, Aaron commented on how he set up his Subaru with two coil packs the original one and an after market coil pack.

    I need to get my head around how the same spark plug fires positive then negative plasma within 720 degrees, can you or some shed some light how that works on wasted spark with a ignition modules.

    Thanks

  2. #1082
    Networking Architect Aaron Murakami's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Realtravel View Post
    Thanks heysoundude

    The ignition module looks a lot like the one from global supply chain/parts bin :https://www.diyautotune.com/support/...stomer/gm-dis/
    I will have to check out the wiring schematics to see how the coil packs are controlled.

    That would be great if I did not have to buy an after market module, Aaron commented on how he set up his Subaru with two coil packs the original one and an after market coil pack.

    I need to get my head around how the same spark plug fires positive then negative plasma within 720 degrees, can you or some shed some light how that works on wasted spark with a ignition modules.

    Thanks
    Didn't you watch my Wasted Spark plasma presentation? I answer those questions.

    In the coil packs, they are not autotransformer coils - the primary and secondary are isolated. When the secondary fires, to complete the circuit, forward positive emf moves from one coil terminal to the plug, over gap and to get back, it goes from the HEAD (ground negative) TOWARD the center electrode of the spark plug and back to the opposite terminal. That is how the plugs fire at the same time. One fires when it needs to ignite the mixture and the opposite fires when it is not needed and is therefore "wasted."

    It is not a plug that fires positive and then negative - each plug maintains whatever polarity it is firing at. My presentation showed how I use 2 coils packs to get the SAME polarity on all 4 plugs - would be the same for 6 on a 6 cylinder engine.
    Aaron Murakami





    You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete. ― Richard Buckminster Fuller

  3. #1083
    @Realtravel please reference the attached diagram
    720 degrees divided by 6 cyl is 120 degree dwell time. put that into the earlier ignition calculator link with a 14.1V voltage (what should be coming off your alternator to charge the battery) to get an idea of the voltages involved...60kV split between 2 spark gaps. laser guide that energy event to as close to TDC on the compression/power stroke as possible, and you're going to be squeezing every bit of power from your gasoline.
    As energy is always looking for the shortest path to ground, consider that the air-fuel charge in the cylinder as part of that path...and in a waste spark ignition, some of the energy to ground will jump the 2nd gap.
    We need to put a diode from the +ve of each primary to the +ve of each secondary for each coil for the Murakami event, right? (plasma is plasma; Aaron's method shortens it's duration for more accurate targeting, right? laser beam vs hand grenade) But the polarity of the secondary changes/reverses in a waste spark ignition, so we need a diode on each return lead from each spark plug. Why? To save/protect the computer/switching source from the 30kV or higher spike that would be coming back at it when the induced magnetic field collapses (causing the plasma event). We'd also need to put something in the primary circuit (like a dual pole relay, or maybe a transistor that directs the energy to ground) that disconnects it from the computer completely.

    EDIT: another (better?) option might be to use a FET with it's gate controlled by the car's ignition signal: the secondary's voltage passes back to the primary until the car's computer triggers the gate to close, like it does with factory ignition by removing the 12V at the primary. pretty sure that would cause a Murakami plasma event too. easier to implement as well...and the time delay would be to our benefit as far as TDC...hmmmm:


    https://youtu.be/wNiXUZIHQLw
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by heysoundude; 04-23-2019 at 05:55 PM. Reason: why won't it let me delete a corrupt file attached?

  4. #1084
    Thanks heysoundude
    Great explanation, it makes a bit more sense, I tried to open your attachment but could not could you please resend it, also send a copy to realhealth7@y7mail.com.
    I watched the youtube link, I have a bit to learn, please keep me in the loop.

    Cheers

  5. #1085
    Quote Originally Posted by Realtravel View Post
    Thanks heysoundude
    Great explanation, it makes a bit more sense, I tried to open your attachment but could not could you please resend it, also send a copy to realhealth7@y7mail.com.
    I watched the youtube link, I have a bit to learn, please keep me in the loop.

    Cheers
    Watch your inbox for a delivery.

    I also have MUCH to learn when it comes to everything, especially electronics/electricity, and that's why I'm trying to keep the convo/experimentation moving forward. While condenser/points ignition is still in use, manufacturers have moved forward...
    heck, even waste spark is behind the times with Coil on Plug ignition. Can't wait for someone to attack that for Murakami plasma...

  6. #1086
    Networking Architect Aaron Murakami's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heysoundude View Post
    Watch your inbox for a delivery.

    I also have MUCH to learn when it comes to everything, especially electronics/electricity, and that's why I'm trying to keep the convo/experimentation moving forward. While condenser/points ignition is still in use, manufacturers have moved forward...
    heck, even waste spark is behind the times with Coil on Plug ignition. Can't wait for someone to attack that for Murakami plasma...

    Coil on plugs is already solved - a COP manufacturer can build them with the diodes in the potting compound to seal it up. Someone I know was having them made in China for a short time. I doubt he'll give up his source but it has been done. That's exactly what I need for my 2006 XT Outback.
    Aaron Murakami





    You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete. ― Richard Buckminster Fuller

  7. #1087
    Networking Architect Aaron Murakami's Avatar
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    YOU HAVE TO READ THESE FEW POSTS FROM THE BOTTOM TO THE TOP TO GET THE SEQUENCE CORRECT

    I've been in contact with Firoz Musthafa for a while and he has done some of the best work with motorcycles that I know of:

    Some of the benefits he experienced:

    cooler temps in exhaust
    no carbon buildup
    extended oil life 400% until it starts to show color change
    reduced oil temp
    put finger on dipstick after 30km drive without burning fingers
    climbing hills in 5th gear

    103km per liter with 150cc motorcycle engine = (390 kilometers per gallon = 242 miles per gallon!)
    50cc can get close to 100mpg, 150cc lower range is about 60 and upper range is 80-90 some claim up to 110.

    There are other mods you can ring about like the Singh grooves.



    On 4/15/2019 12:08 PM, Firoz Musthafa wrote:
    Hi Aaron,

    (edit: I (Aaron) removed this reference to shady characters involved with the plasma ignition scene – you can read about that on Energetic Forum).

    Torque master plugs were the longest to survive plasma (about less than 1000 miles) among the other plugs which he tested.

    He mentioned that even tungsten with plasma was unable to endure anywhere closer to regular plug without plasma

    I think I should be focusing on larger gap and smaller discharge energies to achieve durability of plugs

    Manufacturing custom fire storm plugs are close to impossible since no one in my area does tig welding.

    Thanks,
    Firoz

    On Mon, Apr 8, 2019, 12:52 PM Firoz Musthafa wrote:
    Hi Aaron,

    You are free to publish these results, discussion and videos, no problem, I don't mind my name/mail appearing in energy science forum and I am willing to contribute the forum.
    If anyone can benefit with my experiments I will consider it to be a good deed.

    I haven't tried ultrasonic mist yet, I have an ultrasonic fogger which I bought a while back for the same use and I am planning to finish installation this month.

    Steam injection leans out engine because steam is introduced to inlet manifold while vacuum is very high, which is the reason for reduction in rpm. But rpm is stable when plasma and steam is on and engine braking is significantly lower compared to without steam injection. Attached is my steam injection setup
    (There is a hose in inlet manifold
    The vacuum in that hose is so strong that it can suck water, what I did was I routed that hose to heat exchanger copper coil wounded over super hot silencer and that is connected to a hose that can suck water from the water bottle So when engine runs, the engine uses the vacuum to suck water from water bottle through a small regulator (to adjust volume of water) which is connected to copper tube on silencer, so water will enter through regulator and through the hot coil and enter into the inlet manifold and gets mixed with the petrol vapor coming from carburetor )

    I recently came across Torque Masters spark plug, built with stainless steel electrode, they claim it to last a really long time due to higher plug gap, the basic idea they use is the field effect design which Robert Krupa is highlighting in his firestorm spark plug design and surface conductance through the surface of ceramic. I have ordered a set from them to test out its longevity.
    They too have claims similar to firestorm plugs.

    https://youtu.be/1cIaTOTZByk

    Thanks,
    Firoz
    On Mon, Apr 8, 2019, 2:58 AM Aaron Murakami wrote:
    Hi Firoz,
    Thank you for these updates and videos.
    Besides steam, have you tried cold water fog produced from an ultrasonic transducer? If cold, it has a chance to rapidly expand when it gets into the combustion chamber and compressed.
    That's interesting the steam by itself causes a reduction in rpm - perhaps it is displacing too much of the cooler air coming in through the carburetor?
    Would you be open to posting all of this in energy science forum or would you mind if I posted our conversation there? I can remove your name if you want to be anonymous but you should get credit for this work. I can remove the email for sure. Also, do I have your permission to post your two videos on my YouTube channel? I can give you credit by posting your name on a title screen.
    I think you're the only one who has successfully put this on a motorcycle powered by an alternator. As simple as it seems, I don't know anyone who has done that in the last 11 years.
    I agree with the tungsten plug. However, there is a change to the geometry that is required for longevity. Search Robert Krupa - his "Firestorm" plug geometry will make it last a long time. The patents are expired so it is public domain. He showed videos in the past showing large plasma blasts on his plug, however, what he hid from everyone is the fact that he was using a variation of the plasma ignition circuit to do it. He wanted people to believe the effect was from the geometry of the plug, which it is not - that is just for longevity. With that geometry, copper beryllium and other materials could be used.
    Thanks,
    Aaron


    Aaron Murakami





    You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete. ― Richard Buckminster Fuller

  8. #1088
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    Firoz continued

    On 4/7/2019 4:26 AM, Firoz Musthafa wrote:

    One more point I observed when I injected steam is that, when steam is introduced to engine while plasma is on, engine is not having misfire or hesitation and maintains the same rpm at idle

    Without plasma, steam reduces the engine rpm

    I believe for burning water, it requires at least 120uf of discharge energy and a strong 70kv coil output to knock off any water droplets that gets in contact with spark plug tip. For achieving this thoriated or ceriated tungsten spark plug tip might be required, even then I don't believe it will last anywhere near normal spark plug.

    Regards,
    Firoz

    On Sun, Apr 7, 2019, 4:45 PM Firoz Musthafa wrote:
    Hi Aaron,

    As promised, I did different kinds of testing on Iridium non resistor plug (Takai)

    I can summarize that Iridium spark plug can only endure ignition coil flyback sparks and the spark output diminishes over time due to protective coating.
    When plasma is turned on even with 1.25uf@426 volts spark plug iridium fine wire melted completely
    When I tested 12.5uf iridium fine wire vaporized in 30 seconds to 30% of its original length.

    When I talked to Mark Lepore he said that he has no offering in iridium plug that would endure plasma discharge.


    He also explained the reason for such short life of plug, takai non resistor plug are not made with fine iridium, its rather an alloy of iridium and electrode size is one of the factor that determine the longevity of spark plug.

    He is not supplying a spark plug that would endure plasma plug.

    Regardless, when I turn on plasma ignition there is a bump of 50rpm at idle

    I think the only spark plug that can endure plasma is tungsten (similar to one used for plasma welding application)
    Even with tungsten tip, I don't expect it to last as long as normal plug under plasma ignition

    But without plasma, I observed increased performance with iridium plug when compared to normal non resistor plug


    When I tried leaning out mixture, I observed exhaust temperature spiking as measured using k type thermocouple (I believe fine wire tip is the reason for increase in temperature), because of the higher EGT, my valve oil seal gave up on me preventing further testing.

    I believe surface discharge non resistor plugs would last longer than iridium fine wire plugs, as understood when I removed ground electrode in cheap non resistor plug.

    Attached are some videos with 12.5 uf and 1.25 uf discharge outputs for your reference

    Thanks,
    Firoz


    On Tue, Mar 5, 2019, 2:17 PM Firoz Musthafa wrote:

    When I hacked my old cdi box I saw 2.5uf capacitor inside it.

    I think this is why my cdi is consuming around 40 watts.

    Thanks,
    Firoz

    On Tue, Mar 5, 2019, 3:50 AM Aaron Murakami wrote:
    6uf is really strong - if the iridium plug lasts a long time, that would be amazing.
    The CDI's i normally use are around 2uf - 98mj when fully charged.

    On 3/4/2019 12:22 AM, Firoz Musthafa wrote:
    Right now I am taking the power for plasma from cdi which consumes 40 watts at idle, but it also has connection to 60 watts 12/220 volts transformer connected to alternator which charges up 6uf motor run capacitor. To reduce emi interference I gave a grounded bifilar winding (read ground strapping) on ignition wires till the plasma tapping

    When I turn on connection to alternator, my battery charging system suffers because it sags down alternator voltage, because of this I have turned the alternator connection off, so right now plasma is running at cdi power alone. I am building a 60 watts inverter circuit but I plan to test it at a later stage after all my existing pending works are completed. Once I get my engine to perfection, then I will compare the performance of additional 60 watts along with cdi power.

    6uf discharge is blindingly powerful.

    Thanks,

    Firoz


    On Mon, Mar 4, 2019, 12:55 PM Aaron Murakami wrote:

    Wow - the 1-2mm gap difference is huge!
    With bigger gap, even normal ignition has a bit more delay towards TDC and allows a higher voltage to be generated to jump the gap which is better for igniting more fuel.
    With the plasma ignition, with bigger gap, the impulse is much more powerful.
    IR thermometers are a bit difficult but can be useful. Make sure it is not on any shiny surface as reflections can trick it. Flat black is the best surface for IR thermometers.
    How are you powering the CDI on your motorcycle? You may have told me so I apologize if I do not recall.



    On 3/3/2019 2:07 PM, Firoz Musthafa wrote:
    Yes sure. I will do a comprehensive testing doing 1 change at a time and update in forum with video.

    However I would need 3 weeks to complete it as I am only left with weekends and weekday late nights to spend for the project.

    1 other point I noticed with iridium plug is that the positive electrode is having a whitish coating (I am assuming its either iridium oxide or rare metal oxide getting coated that is preventing excessive wear)

    With this coating the plasma spark is visibly slightly lesser than when installed new.

    1 other significant point which I noticed is that plug gap is very crucial to fuel efficiency

    Stock gap is 1mm, with this I got average 69kmpl driven at average 40kmph
    And average 61kmpl at average 55kmph

    I widened the gap to 2mm and got average 90kmpl driven at average 40kmph
    And 81kmpl at average 60kmph

    Tests were done average of 3 trials using same route at night to avoid traffic and maintain same humidity and temperature.

    This test got me arriving at this conclusion that larger spark exposure means much more better combustion. I will redo all these tests after 1 week and after 1 month to see any large deviation in combustion efficiency.

    I will see how much more efficiency I can get with more power fed to the plasma circuit as a comparison of spark intensity vs spark area, but this comparison will be done at a later stage once I get my engine tuning spot on.

    Next week I am planning to remove my silencer and insert copper pipe then using ir thermometer I could catch the reading which should be a fair comparison.

    Thanks,
    Firoz

    On Mon, Mar 4, 2019, 1:54 AM Aaron Murakami wrote:
    As you lean out the engine, conventional wisdom is that it will overheat. However, that is a half-truth because that only applies if one cannot properly ignite a lean mixture. With the plasma, the lean burn limit is extended so there can actually be a temperature drop since the thermal efficiency of the engine has increased.
    Perhaps a thermal probe can be inserted deep into the exhaust?
    If you can lean out your engine and get a temperature drop, then you have done the "impossible".
    Have you taken any pictures or videos of your experiment? I'd love to see a video demo of how lean you are able to get it to run.
    If you don't mind sharing your work here: http://www.energyscienceforum.com/showthread.php?t=689 that would be greatly appreciated!



    On 3/3/2019 2:52 AM, Firoz Musthafa wrote:
    Unfortunately my engine doesn't have an opening for egt sensor. Even latest model 150cc Honda engines doesn't use an EGT sensor.

    But I would like to add an egt sensor by drilling and tapping the exhaust manifold. Would need to talk to my machinist, if it's too much, I might end up making a temporary gig instead of messing up with stock silencer. This might help to get my tuning spot on to bare minimum fuel consumption without ending up with a burnt valve.

    You opened my eyes.

    On Sun, Mar 3, 2019, 4:14 PM Aaron Murakami wrote:
    If you're able to get a "bung" welded into the exhaust manifold, you can insert the sensor from a EGT gauge. It's possible the exhaust manifold may already have a sealed off port that could be opened up.
    Is this all on the 150cc motorcycle so far?
    Aaron Murakami





    You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete. ― Richard Buckminster Fuller

  9. #1089
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    On 3/3/2019 2:27 AM, Firoz Musthafa wrote:
    Sure Aaron, currently I don't have the equipment to read EGT, but I will do it for you.

    I will see if it can be done from here locally. Will update all my findings

    Thanks,
    Firoz

    On Sun, Mar 3, 2019, 3:53 PM Aaron Murakami wrote:
    That's great!
    Are you able to take before and after exhaust gas temp readings?
    "I think the idea of concentrating spark (focal point technology of Takai spark plug design) to get the hottest spark and combined with plasma is what is allowing the ultra lean mixture to ignite so well."
    Will be interesting to see how the experiment pans out long term.

    On 3/3/2019 12:50 AM, Firoz Musthafa wrote:
    Cool Thanks.
    Sorry I didn't make it perfectly clear.
    My carburetor has an air fuel screw for which the perfect stoichometric ratio is at 4 full turns out from all the way in.

    Before installing iridium plug I could never run it at even 3 turns out without misfire and uneven idle.

    This plug allows me to go all the way down to 2 turns out which is super lean.

    Engine would usually refuse to idle at that setting.
    With cheap non resistor plugs, it would never allow me to go lower than 3 turns out even with plasma.

    What I couldn't believe is that engine runs very well at 2 turns and that too without noticeable power loss. I re-did this 5 times just to confirm that I am not mistaken.

    I think the idea of concentrating spark (focal point technology of Takai spark plug design) to get the hottest spark and combined with plasma is what is allowing the ultra lean mixture to ignite so well.

    I tried the same iridium plug in another identical engine without plasma, even that engine exhibited lean burn behavior but power was noticeably lesser compared to plasma ignition with iridium plug.

    I think Takai plug works synergistically well with plasma ignition for improving fuel consumption.

    Thanks,
    Firoz

    On Sun, Mar 3, 2019, 9:46 AM Aaron Murakami wrote:
    Hello Firoz,
    Plugs sound good. Yes, 20-56 ohms is high compared to simple, cheap non-resistor plugs, which barely have any measurable resistance.
    That is still very low resistance compared to resistor plugs, which are commonly 5.5k so they should be fine. They will dissipate a bit of the impulse current but not much.
    What do you mean by "lean it twice"?
    Looking forward to you tests!
    Aaron




    On 3/2/2019 12:08 AM, Firoz Musthafa wrote:
    Hi Aaron,

    I received the plugs from them.
    The brand is Takai racing iridium spark plug.

    The plugs are good quality and was perfect fit. I was able to lean it twice than cheap non resistor plug. It has a 0.5mm iridium fine wire at tip and a v groove

    I will test it for a month and reply back on how good it stand against plasma.

    Out of all the plugs I received, average resistance was less than 20 ohms with one exception having 56 ohms
    I think resistance is quite high compared to other non resistor plugs as far as plasma ignition is concerned.

    Please let me know your thought about this

    On Tue, Feb 5, 2019, 4:54 AM Aaron Murakami wrote:
    Yes, please do let me know of your results with their plugs. Looking forward to it!

    On 2/4/2019 3:13 PM, Firoz Musthafa wrote:
    Thanks a lot for your valuable suggestion Aaron.

    I have placed order for the same with weapon X. My spark plug has projected tip, but they don't have projected tip, rest of the specs are matching perfectly. Let's see how well it fair against the powerful plasma.

    Will keep you updated regarding this.

    Thanks,
    Firoz

    On Tue, Feb 5, 2019, 3:23 AM Aaron Murakami wrote:
    Hi Firoz,
    Search for weaponx spark plugs, they have non resistor iridium and/or palladium - i haven't tested them yet, but they should last longer than the cheap non resistor plugs. They're about $15 each last time I checked.
    Aaron
    On 1/31/2019 12:09 PM, Firoz Musthafa wrote:
    Hi Aaron,

    This is just a follow up update on my plasma setup.

    I recently made an upgrade to plasma setup by implementing s1r-tero circuit
    Instead of inverter, I rewound alternator to double the amps output and used 12v /220 5amp transformer connected to alternator ac in parallel to rr unit
    Experimented with 6uf, 12.5uf and 72uf motor run capacitors, caps charged upto 550 volts during engine operation

    The spark plug literally melted in 30 minutes and started misfiring, so I had to revert back to original plasma setup.
    I made diode strings out of uf5408 ultra fast 3amp diodes and the plasma jumped to the outer ground electrode ring without any problem (ground electrode removed)
    Right now I am looking at ways to improve the spark plug life since ngk is not making non resistor plug for my engine make

    I am planning to reinforce the center electrode by welding with high nickel content metal hoping to prolong spark plug life and allowing me to inside steam injection so that I can break my fuel efficiency record

    Please feel free to enlighten me on any points that I should be concentrating more to achieve my objective

    Thanks and best regards,
    Firoz

    On Sun, Nov 12, 2017, 6:01 PM Firoz Musthafa wrote:
    Sure...
    My setup is really simple. My bike is Honda Unicorn 150cc CBF150M 2008 model with stock cdi unit and I used your diode string setup without inverter/capacitor. I.e, your basic HV diode circuit.

    Few changes which I did were, welded the combustion chamber and milled it to increase compression ratio from stock 9:1 to 14:1 compression ratio with Somender Singh groove to control knocking to some extend, by doing this my torque improvement was too much for street use and it increased my tire wear significantly. Before modifying I use to get 55kilometers per liter. After modification, I got a little bit better mileage around 65 kilometers per liter average. All calculations are averaged from tank to tank. I figured,I could make better use of the new improvement in torque by overgearing it (from 2.8:1 to 2.5:1), after doing this, my mileage got a significant improvement about 75 kilometers per liter and became drivable for street use. Unfortunately, we don't have a dyno anywhere to see the numbers, but I would love to see the difference in power.

    https://youtu.be/geq8w70QFBM

    I am not a smooth rider, my hands have a habit of throttling too much even though I intentionally try to avoid it.

    Due to the increased compression, it used to knock when I suddenly blip the throttle wide open.

    After I changed to plasma and leaned the CV carburetor by increasing diaphragm spring length to 2 inches, things started to become very serious. Zero carbon at tail pipe, I could put my fingers in my exhaust after a long hard run and still not burn my fingers, and not stain it from carbon deposits either. Very remarkable improvement. Stock engine oil drain interval used to be at 2000kms, after increasing compression my oil drain interval doubled, but with plasma ignition, engine oil remains clear even at 4000kms. Right now I have clocked 8000kms with plasma and it started to show slight change in color, I guess I will change in 10k even if it is not as dirty, there could be metal contaminants in oil. Otherwise, there is no reason to change oil at 10K. Oil temperature also reduced considerably. After a 30 km drive at 80kmph, I could take out dipstick and actually touch the oil and feel just warm to touch.

    I could climb hills in 5th gear and it feels lightweight. Remarkable transformation indeed.

    With plasma I managed to get 103 kilometers per liter, no other 150cc engine in India could possibly have such incredible mileage.

    All thanks to your pioneering research. Feeling very glad I subscribed ignition secrets, really appreciate your hard work and your never ending pursuit of knowledge.

    Thanks,

    Firoz
    Aaron Murakami





    You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete. ― Richard Buckminster Fuller

  10. #1090
    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron Murakami View Post
    Coil on plugs is already solved - a COP manufacturer can build them with the diodes in the potting compound to seal it up. Someone I know was having them made in China for a short time. I doubt he'll give up his source but it has been done. That's exactly what I need for my 2006 XT Outback.
    there should be a growing demand for those...or an investor/businessperson willing to invest in green technology should step in to hold limited stock

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