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Thread: What's the best cap dump circuit?

  1. #11

    Cap Dump Use

    Quote Originally Posted by Carlos Galvis View Post
    thanks ron, wow, looks like ther's lots of ways to do this, what has been your experience working with these setups?

    carlos
    Hi Carlos,

    Yes there are several ways to dump capacitors.

    I have used all three versions of cap dump on a 5 foot diameter Bedini Ferris Wheel motor energizer I built after the 2010 Energy Conference. I found all three to be effective in charging a 36V battery bank. For 12V and 24V systems the same schemes will work but with different sizes of capacitors to match the coils and primary voltages used and some considerations for firing the neon bulb and heatsinking where needed. On the 5 foot wheel I prefer the SSR cap dump developed by John Bedini. It's elegant, simple and effective which should surprise no one. His designs are always brilliant.

    Here are a couple pictures of cap dumps. One using the neon lamp and the other using the solid state relay.

    Ron
    Attached Images Attached Images

  2. #12
    Hi Ron,

    I managed to get the comparator circuit you posted on EF working the other day, with a few changes (thanks John K). I like the way it charges! I read somewhere JB said it could also be used for Cap discharge into motor coils as well, I can see some interesting possibilities with this.

    I have briefly tried the single transistor/mosfet/SSR method where there is no apparent triggering, that is the base/gate is not connected. I couldnt seem to get that one to work however. Is it part sensitive. I think it was Mike K who posted a number of transistors he tried that worked.

    You say you prefer the SSR cap dump developed by JB, is that the comparator circuit? Or the second one on your previous post? Or something different again?


    Regards

    Shan

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Ren View Post
    Hi Ron,
    I managed to get the comparator circuit you posted on EF working the other day with a few changes (thanks John K), .
    Hi, Ren
    Did I miss something here?

  4. #14
    Hi Shan,

    "I managed to get the comparator circuit you posted on EF working the other day, with a few changes (thanks John K). I like the way it charges! I read somewhere JB said it could also be used for Cap discharge into motor coils as well, I can see some interesting possibilities with this."

    Glad to hear you have the comparator circuit working. I also modified my comparator circuit with changes from John K's circuit. He's a good man! Can you post your latest schematic? I'd like to compare it to my latest version. Cap discharge into coils sounds interesting. Thanks.

    "I have briefly tried the single transistor/mosfet/SSR method where there is no apparent triggering, that is the base/gate is not connected. I couldnt seem to get that one to work however. Is it part sensitive. I think it was Mike K who posted a number of transistors he tried that worked."

    It may be part sensitive in regards to system voltage. What voltage is your sytem using? I am running 36V on the 5 foot wheel and the IRFP Power Mosfet and Magnecraft solid state relay both work well. I think of them as passive switching devices in that as you mentioned there is no trigger signal applied to the gates. Functionally they see a higher voltage potential at the negative side of the dump cap than at the negative post of the battery bank and instantly switch on when a certain differential voltage level is reached. Why this happens is open to speculation. Can you direct me to Mike K's post about transistors he sucessfully tested? Thanks.

    "You say you prefer the SSR cap dump developed by JB, is that the comparator circuit? Or the second one on your previous post? Or something different again?"

    Its not the comparator circuit, thats completely different. I think the comparator circuit was mainly used with lower voltage systems but can work with 36V systems. The SSR cap dump by John B. is the second circuit in my previous post. It only uses one passive switching device as I mentioned above. I like the solid state relay package because its easy to mount and connect wires to. It also runs absolutely cool to the touch as does asingle IRFP mosfet. I think they dump all of the energy spike to the battery bank and don't waste any energy as heat as occurs with actively switched devices as you can see in the first circuit of the Three Cap Dump Methods from my previous post. Actively switched devices definitely require heat sinking.

    Best Regards, Ron

  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Chase View Post
    Hi Shan,

    "I managed to get the comparator circuit you posted on EF working the other day, with a few changes (thanks John K). I like the way it charges! I read somewhere JB said it could also be used for Cap discharge into motor coils as well, I can see some interesting possibilities with this."

    Glad to hear you have the comparator circuit working. I also modified my comparator circuit with changes from John K's circuit. He's a good man! Can you post your latest schematic? I'd like to compare it to my latest version. Cap discharge into coils sounds interesting. Thanks.

    "I have briefly tried the single transistor/mosfet/SSR method where there is no apparent triggering, that is the base/gate is not connected. I couldnt seem to get that one to work however. Is it part sensitive. I think it was Mike K who posted a number of transistors he tried that worked."

    It may be part sensitive in regards to system voltage. What voltage is your sytem using? I am running 36V on the 5 foot wheel and the IRFP Power Mosfet and Magnecraft solid state relay both work well. I think of them as passive switching devices in that as you mentioned there is no trigger signal applied to the gates. Functionally they see a higher voltage potential at the negative side of the dump cap than at the negative post of the battery bank and instantly switch on when a certain differential voltage level is reached. Why this happens is open to speculation. Can you direct me to Mike K's post about transistors he sucessfully tested? Thanks.

    "You say you prefer the SSR cap dump developed by JB, is that the comparator circuit? Or the second one on your previous post? Or something different again?"

    Its not the comparator circuit, thats completely different. I think the comparator circuit was mainly used with lower voltage systems but can work with 36V systems. The SSR cap dump by John B. is the second circuit in my previous post. It only uses one passive switching device as I mentioned above. I like the solid state relay package because its easy to mount and connect wires to. It also runs absolutely cool to the touch as does asingle IRFP mosfet. I think they dump all of the energy spike to the battery bank and don't waste any energy as heat as occurs with actively switched devices as you can see in the first circuit of the Three Cap Dump Methods from my previous post. Actively switched devices definitely require heat sinking.

    Best Regards, Ron

    Hi Ron,

    Ive attached your schematic below, along with a pic of the monopole Im testing with. My "artsy" computer is down at the moment, the one I do image manipulation on. And your schematic is so neat and pretty I'm hesitant to stain it with my changes

    So I'll just mention my additions, which John K helped me with.

    First, my cap charger is a 3 coil monopole, each coil has 6 x 0.9mm power strands. Input is 12v @ 1 amp, though I have tested it up to 120v @ 1 amp with a variac. Capacitance is 22,000uF on front and back, 75vdc electrolytic. @ 12 watts input the output capacitor dumps just faster than once a second @ approx 22v. Of course this can be tailored with the adjustment of the 25k pot, but John K suggested around 18v for gels and around 24v for lab's. So far working quite well. And there is alot of improvements that could be made with the coils and circuit.

    The changes to your schematic are as follows:

    D7 is changed to 1N4733 (5.1v Zener). Couldnt get it to work on 12v input with the 15v zener there.

    JK suggested C1, 1uF ceramic and C2 2.2uF electrolytic. I used a green cap for C1, couldnt get a ceramic locally.

    JK also suggested a 0.47 uF cap over pins 2/3 of the LM741, I have yet to place that there though.

    I have a socket installed for the h11d1, but got that far and realized I could just use the output of the 741 to pulse my SSR directly, since it is optically coupled inside the SSR I saw no need for double isolation. So pins 1 and 2 of the h11d1 now connect to my HFS33a (32v, 100A SSR) which I had lying around.

    Omitted the Power LED and subsequent 47k resistor once I had it working. Also have a switch to bypass the pulse LED. On a previous build (Tesla Switch) I was using an Arduino to switch the SSR's and I found that with an LED inplace the SSR didnt switch on correctly. Removing that LED fixed the problem and the SSR switched much better. Wasnt sure if by chance it was doing the same thing, so have the option to switch that LED on or bypass it. Doesnt appear to make much difference however.

    Id still like to build the full schematic with the FETs however as this relay is very limited in voltage, it just happened to be what I had laying around. If I try some cap discharges with this circuit into motor coils then it will have to be rated much higher.

    BTW, I love that wooden Ferris wheel you made. So oldschool and super cool. I cant look at old wagon wheels the same way now!

    Regards

    Shan





    PS: I cant seem to find the post by Mike K, I seem to remember reading it on the old Yahoo group just before it closed down. There were a number of NPN transistors from memory that he tested. I'll keep looking.
    Comparator Circuit 12-1-11[1] copy.pdfIMG_0533.jpgIMG_0534.jpg
    Last edited by Ren; 02-25-2013 at 08:06 PM.

  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by vallentin View Post
    Hi, Ren
    Did I miss something here?
    Hi Vallentin,

    Perhaps. Im still catching up myself. The comparator circuit was talked about in the Ferris Wheel thread over on Energetic forum. Ron posted his schematic over there. My basic understanding is that it is a Cap dumping circuit which is triggered when the voltage in the capacitor reaches a pre determined level. Beyond that I am still a little hazy. Perhaps someone who is more familiar with it could expand on its functions.

    Regards

    Shan

  7. #17
    Thanks, Ren.

  8. #18
    Hi Shan and Ron,

    Regarding your Cap pulser Sch, you show the collectors of the opto and the BD243C hooked to the Drain of the mosfets and the neg of the charging battery......

    JB's Sch at the 2011 conference has the collectors of the opto and the BD243C hooked to the 15V power supply of the LM741, so that the gate is pulled up to 15V to fully turn on the mosfet....

    the connection you show will work for big transistors, but not so good for mosfets......

    This was pointed out to Brent a while back in another thread, and he said that the change helped........

    RS

  9. #19

    Difference between Cap dumps

    Quote Originally Posted by Ren View Post
    Hi Ron,

    Ive attached your schematic below, along with a pic of the monopole Im testing with. My "artsy" computer is down at the moment, the one I do image manipulation on. And your schematic is so neat and pretty I'm hesitant to stain it with my changes

    So I'll just mention my additions, which John K helped me with.

    First, my cap charger is a 3 coil monopole, each coil has 6 x 0.9mm power strands. Input is 12v @ 1 amp, though I have tested it up to 120v @ 1 amp with a variac. Capacitance is 22,000uF on front and back, 75vdc electrolytic. @ 12 watts input the output capacitor dumps just faster than once a second @ approx 22v. Of course this can be tailored with the adjustment of the 25k pot, but John K suggested around 18v for gels and around 24v for lab's. So far working quite well. And there is alot of improvements that could be made with the coils and circuit.

    The changes to your schematic are as follows:

    D7 is changed to 1N4733 (5.1v Zener). Couldnt get it to work on 12v input with the 15v zener there.

    JK suggested C1, 1uF ceramic and C2 2.2uF electrolytic. I used a green cap for C1, couldnt get a ceramic locally.

    JK also suggested a 0.47 uF cap over pins 2/3 of the LM741, I have yet to place that there though.

    I have a socket installed for the h11d1, but got that far and realized I could just use the output of the 741 to pulse my SSR directly, since it is optically coupled inside the SSR I saw no need for double isolation. So pins 1 and 2 of the h11d1 now connect to my HFS33a (32v, 100A SSR) which I had lying around.

    Omitted the Power LED and subsequent 47k resistor once I had it working. Also have a switch to bypass the pulse LED. On a previous build (Tesla Switch) I was using an Arduino to switch the SSR's and I found that with an LED inplace the SSR didnt switch on correctly. Removing that LED fixed the problem and the SSR switched much better. Wasnt sure if by chance it was doing the same thing, so have the option to switch that LED on or bypass it. Doesnt appear to make much difference however.

    Id still like to build the full schematic with the FETs however as this relay is very limited in voltage, it just happened to be what I had laying around. If I try some cap discharges with this circuit into motor coils then it will have to be rated much higher.

    BTW, I love that wooden Ferris wheel you made. So oldschool and super cool. I cant look at old wagon wheels the same way now!

    Regards

    Shan





    PS: I cant seem to find the post by Mike K, I seem to remember reading it on the old Yahoo group just before it closed down. There were a number of NPN transistors from memory that he tested. I'll keep looking.
    Comparator Circuit 12-1-11[1] copy.pdfIMG_0533.jpgIMG_0534.jpg
    Hi Shan,

    I had fun building with the wagon wheel. I like old and new integrated together. Your machine looks great, very clean layout, I like it! Thanks for the closeup of your comparator board and the schematic. A 12V system definitely wouldn't work with 15V zeners in the comparator circuit. Also feel free to stain away!

    I was thinking about what you said earlier about trying the SSR and FET's from my earlier post #6, so last night, I got out my old SSG and tried a couple of the cap dump circuits. It quickly became clear that those circuit's have to be independently triggered (duh) in order to work properly with higher RPM SSG type monopoles (just like in the "Free Energy Generation" book). They turn on and stay on when the cap fills up because of the nature of the SSG circuit which is supplying energy to the cap continuously. The reason they work well with the low RPM ferris wheels is that the coils are pulsed at a much slower rate using the modified Bedini/Cole switch that turns the power and ground on and off sumultaneously. The cap fills up and there is time for a complete dump to the batteries by the mysterious action of the SSR or FET. The circuit with the neon bulb trigger is also triggered by the Bedini/Cole switching action but will not switch with the SSG circuit. Just stays on so no sharp spike to the battery. Interestingly though the batteries do charge up even in the latched state. This is similar to the solid state chargers without wheels. There is a pulse charge occuring but at a much higher frequency than the ferris wheels.

    The comparator circuit works well with SSG type wheels because it is a pulsing circuit with adjustable dump frequency. It can also be designed to work at slow frequency with the ferris wheels.

    Thanks Again,

    Ron

  10. #20

    Comparator Circuit

    Quote Originally Posted by RS_ View Post
    Hi Shan and Ron,

    Regarding your Cap pulser Sch, you show the collectors of the opto and the BD243C hooked to the Drain of the mosfets and the neg of the charging battery......

    JB's Sch at the 2011 conference has the collectors of the opto and the BD243C hooked to the 15V power supply of the LM741, so that the gate is pulled up to 15V to fully turn on the mosfet....

    the connection you show will work for big transistors, but not so good for mosfets......

    This was pointed out to Brent a while back in another thread, and he said that the change helped........

    RS
    Hi RS,

    That sounds right. Can you post the schematic you mentioned?

    Where is Brent these days? He really did a lot of work on the comparator circuit I posted and many others as well and John K.'s posts were much appreciated.

    Thanks,

    Ron

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