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Thread: ZFM Advanced Explorations Part II

  1. #1
    Senior Member Yaro1776's Avatar
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    ZFM Advanced Explorations Part II

    Hello to all,

    The summer hiatus from the ZFM Advanced Explorations is now over and the experiments for the next generation of ZFM will begin. Review of the prior ZFM work over the past three years has certainly been exciting, interesting and thought provoking. It did point out one important area of experimentation that had been overlooked and that is the interaction of the rotor Neo’s with the motor coil poles and the physical location of maximum interaction.

    As a simple first experiment an existing Aluminum 4 pole rotor was modified by removing the existing Neo’s and placing one large Neo (1.5”Lx1.0”Wx0.5”T) on one pole of the rotor. The rotor and shaft assembly were installed in the original YZFM along with a shaft mounted degree wheel. Both coils were powered up for this first test using a 90 Ah 12volt LAB and the rotor would rotate to the nearest attractive coil pole after being centered in the empty arc between the twin coils. The polarity was then reversed after the degree wheel was zeroed on the attractive pole.

    The original expectation was either the rotor would remain centered or rotate to the attractive pole. The rotor Neo definitely rotated to the attractive pole, however it was the edge of the Neo that positioned itself over one coil end and not the center of the Neo as expected. The polarity was reversed and the rotor positioned itself with the Neo outside edge over the other coil end attractive pole yielding a total of 70-75 degrees of rotation for the empty arc.

    At this point the left hand coil was overheating again, while the right coil remained just warm to the touch. The left coil was subsequently disabled and the experiment completed on the right coil.

    So now the experiment was continued by rotating the Neo position to the center of the coil and applying the power. Again the Neo rotated such that its edge was locked over the coil end and the degree wheel adjusted to zero. The power was then applied at a reverse polarity and the rotor turned to the other pole with the Neo edge again locked onto the magnetic pole yielding a rotation of 105-110 degrees.

    As for the repulsive pole, the Neo was centered manually into the dead zone of the coil end pole where the repelling force is vertical (no rotational force) to the magnet’s face yielding about 90 degrees (there is a bit of rotational play in this dead zone) for both instances.

    To complete this experiment two other Neo sizes were installed on the rotor and the same experiment completed for each yielding the same general rotational behavior and degree values.

    Next post will expand to two opposing Neo’s in a N-N configuration. Please hold your comments until the subsequent experiments are completed to flesh out the details.

    Pic of Single Neo position below:
    ZFM Timing 1.jpg
    Last edited by Yaro1776; 09-28-2019 at 09:54 AM. Reason: Pictorial Clarification with .gif
    Yaro

    "The Universe is under no obligation to make sense to you." -Neil Degrasse Tyson

  2. #2
    Senior Member Yaro1776's Avatar
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    Experiment B: N-N Rotor Neo Configuration

    The second experiment in this series was a trial with a rotor N-N Neo configuration facing outward on the same Aluminum rotor as the prior test. The right single coil was energized with a 12v LAB and the voltage polarity reversed a number of times for the sake of consistency. The Neo’s were 1”Lx1”Wx0.375”T and spaced 180 degrees apart on the rotor. Installing the steel shaft helped the Neo’s maintain their position – the Neo’s had two wraps of fiberglass tape to prevent any motion of the magnets.

    With this N-N Neo configuration the rotor turned and rested on the first attractive coil end pole. The Degree wheel was then adjusted to the Zero Degree Point and next the coil polarity was reversed. With this reversal of polarity the rotor remained stationary, no motion; meaning the repulsive pole was in the same location as the attractive pole – interesting!

    A slight nudge moved the rotor out of the repulsive dead zone and it turned towards the other coil end pole and locked onto the attractive pole. The total rotation was 95 degrees. A major difference from the previous single pole experiment.

    This demonstrates that the addition of another opposite Neo (180 degrees apart) influences the shape of the magnetic field around the rotor Neo’s. Now in the next experiment the Neo configuration will be changed to N-S to demonstrate the impact of this arrangement, if any.

    ZFM Timing 2.jpg
    Yaro

    "The Universe is under no obligation to make sense to you." -Neil Degrasse Tyson

  3. #3
    Hi Yaro,

    These are interesting experiments, but I have a couple of questions about them. .............First, what is the "repulsive dead zone"? And second, if you installed a steel shaft for the second experiment, what was the shaft material in the first experiment?

    As for the repulsive pole, the Neo was centered manually into the dead zone of the coil end pole where the repelling force is vertical (no rotational force) to the magnet’s face yielding about 90 degrees (there is a bit of rotational play in this dead zone) for both instances.
    A slight nudge moved the rotor out of the repulsive dead zone and it turned towards the other coil end pole and locked onto the attractive pole. The total rotation was 95 degrees. A major difference from the previous single pole experiment.
    Installing the steel shaft helped the Neo’s maintain their position – the Neo’s had two wraps of fiberglass tape to prevent any motion of the magnets.
    Gary Hammond,

  4. #4
    Senior Member Yaro1776's Avatar
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    Hey Gary,

    There is a narrow arc of rotational movement at the coil end pole where the principle magnetic force acting is radial and not tangential. In the attractive case the Neo is locked into position and will not rotate - the same applies for the repulsive case, in that the Neo remains stationary. I describe this as the dead zone and use it as a reference point. There is some very small play here due to other influences, with the major one being static bearing friction.

    My error in not clarifying that the same steel shaft and Aluminum rotor were used in each experiment. Intend to post the last experiment soon.
    Yaro

    "The Universe is under no obligation to make sense to you." -Neil Degrasse Tyson

  5. #5
    Senior Member Yaro1776's Avatar
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    Experiment C: N-S Neo Configuration

    The third experiment in this series was a trial with a rotor N-S configuration on the same Aluminum rotor/shaft as the prior test. The right single coil was energized with a 12v LAB and the voltage polarity reversed a number of times for the sake of consistency. Again, the Neo’s were 1”Lx1”Wx0.375”T and spaced 180 degrees apart on the rotor.

    With this N-S Neo configuration the rotor turned and rested on the first attractive coil end pole. The Degree wheel was then adjusted to the Zero Degree Point. The rotor then was positioned at the coil mid-point (to eliminate rotor over spin) and next the coil polarity was reversed. With the reversal of polarity the rotor turned to the other attractive pole yielding 105 degrees of total rotation from the other coil pole. Trials with either N or S pole of the rotor yielded nearly identical results. The arcs of rotation were very similar to the first experiment with a single Neo!

    Repeated tests demonstrated that the repulsive pole remained on the coil end pole point, nearly identical to the attractive pole offset. Again, very interesting…

    The air coil certainly displays some interesting characteristics when the magnet configurations are altered, but then it may be that the magnetic field produced by the Neo’s is modified by the Neo polarity arrangement. The sense is that the latter is true.

    The above experiments and their results are by no means definitive – there may be other influences present if the opposing coil is energized. However, the other coil on the current YZFM is damaged and that precluded its use for verification.

    Nevertheless, all the above provides fodder for those “skilled in the art” – love the humor in that statement; and the hope is that the above does help the ZFM experimenters in their design efforts.

    Thank you for your attention!
    ZFM Timing 3.jpg
    Yaro

    "The Universe is under no obligation to make sense to you." -Neil Degrasse Tyson

  6. #6
    Hi Yaro,

    I would also be interested in seeing how a four magnet rotor would behave in this test. Both with all north out and then with alternating N,S,N,S out.

    It would also be interesting to measure where the torque is the greatest in each experiment, i.e. at the coil ends or somewhere else in the arc of rotation between the coil ends.

    I'm enjoying your experiments with the basic setups to better understand the magnetic fields and how they interact. GOOD WORK!!
    Last edited by Gary Hammond; 09-30-2019 at 09:18 AM. Reason: correct spelling
    Gary Hammond,

  7. #7
    Senior Member Yaro1776's Avatar
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    Gary,

    Appreciate your encouragement on this experiment and will attempt to partially answer your what if questions as follows:

    1) The two pole arrangements are very similar in the torque produced, at least as measured by the finger test. At 12vdc there is a smooth acceleration from the Repulsive pole towards the Attractive pole when there are two forces (push and pull) acting on the Neo rotor and it appears that the minimum is on the very near approach to the A pole, while the maximum is produced a bit away from the R pole vicinity.

    2) Cannot do this type of test with a N-N-N-N arrangement at this time with the single coil - not enough Neo's on hand. This configuration would be problematic for a 90 degree coil in that as the first N Neo rotor moves from the R pole towards the A pole the second N rotor Neo approaches the R pole. Furthermore the third N Neo leaving the A pole would resist the first Neo leaving the R pole. So the rotor would probably stall. Way too many conflicting forces

    3) The N-S-N-S arrangement, on the other hand, has three Neo poles working together with the coil, thereby amplifying the A and R forces. The first N Neo is being Repulsed while the second incoming S Neo is being Attracted to that pole. The third S Neo is being repelled (outgoing) from the further pole. That in a nutshell is the beauty of the ZFM concept with all the forces acting in unison The YZFM has been operated many times at only one polarity and it will produce torque and speed, albeit at a much lower value.

    Torque measurement may be a bit challenging, however we can speculate that it is greatest when the Vertical force is becoming lower and the Tangential forces are greatest. Much depends on the Neo sizing, coil gap to Neo and the operating voltage - this is where the design issues become way too complex.

    The point here is that a series of simple experiments can become an invaluable tool for maximizing the desired performance from any motor design.

    Thank you for your kind attention!
    Yaro

    "The Universe is under no obligation to make sense to you." -Neil Degrasse Tyson

  8. #8
    Senior Member Yaro1776's Avatar
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    test by Aaron
    Yaro

    "The Universe is under no obligation to make sense to you." -Neil Degrasse Tyson

  9. #9
    Senior Member Yaro1776's Avatar
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    Functionality Test
    Yaro

    "The Universe is under no obligation to make sense to you." -Neil Degrasse Tyson

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    Networking Architect Aaron Murakami's Avatar
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