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Thread: Impedance matching

  1. #1

    Impedance matching

    Hello everybody,
    It's allways talked about that the coils should match the impedance of the battery,but how is this made?
    I hope somebody can help.
    Thanks

  2. #2
    Senior Member Forrest's Avatar
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    Hi forelle, The impedance question I am sure of yet. Do not have your answer but do have some very good info to read thru. SSG_STARTERS_GUIDE-Two.pdf

    This was good enough for me to put into book form. It might give you the clues you need to the answer.

    bud
    Do not procrastinate! Make something happen...even if it is wrong. Once begun half done!

  3. #3
    Senior Member Forrest's Avatar
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    Hi forelle,

    NOTES ON BATTERIES AND COILS IMPEDANCE MATCHING
    • Ideally the impedance of each coil should match the C20 rate for the batteries.
    • As previously indicated, the small 7.0Ah gel cell types have a C20 rate of 0.28A. That is the
    maximum discharge rate allowed under the C20 rule. The coil specified on Peswiki comes
    under this value and thus is well suited for new users.
    • Obviously larger batteries with higher C20 rates will support larger coils or those with heavier
    gauge wire or more than one coil (for now stick with the one coil). As a quick rule of thumb,
    Roamer has suggested to buy 100ft of 18AWG twin speaker cable from Radio Shack and
    make the coil for larger batteries.
    • Basically, bigger wire coil implies higher RPM and more current. Multiple smaller coils imply
    higher RPM and less current draw per coil but more overall than just one coil (see notes
    below).
    • All this depends on your rotor, the number of magnets, etc… with regards to where the
    ‘sweet spot’ RPM and amperage is going to be for a given coil size or number of coils running
    at that ‘sweet spot’ RPM.
    • As a further example a coil or coils that draw 1 to 3 amps (as shown on a DMM), will charge
    a deep cycle golf cart size battery bank. This amperage draw does not even get close to the
    C20 rating of the battery bank, so that the rest of the charge in the battery can be used for
    other loads at the same time as charging the other bank(s).

    Bud
    Do not procrastinate! Make something happen...even if it is wrong. Once begun half done!

  4. #4
    Senior Member Tom C's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forrest View Post
    Hi forelle,

    NOTES ON BATTERIES AND COILS IMPEDANCE MATCHING
    • Ideally the impedance of each coil should match the C20 rate for the batteries.
    • As previously indicated, the small 7.0Ah gel cell types have a C20 rate of 0.28A. That is the
    maximum discharge rate allowed under the C20 rule. The coil specified on Peswiki comes
    under this value and thus is well suited for new users.
    • Obviously larger batteries with higher C20 rates will support larger coils or those with heavier
    gauge wire or more than one coil (for now stick with the one coil). As a quick rule of thumb,
    Roamer has suggested to buy 100ft of 18AWG twin speaker cable from Radio Shack and
    make the coil for larger batteries.
    • Basically, bigger wire coil implies higher RPM and more current. Multiple smaller coils imply
    higher RPM and less current draw per coil but more overall than just one coil (see notes
    below).
    • All this depends on your rotor, the number of magnets, etc… with regards to where the
    ‘sweet spot’ RPM and amperage is going to be for a given coil size or number of coils running
    at that ‘sweet spot’ RPM.
    • As a further example a coil or coils that draw 1 to 3 amps (as shown on a DMM), will charge
    a deep cycle golf cart size battery bank. This amperage draw does not even get close to the
    C20 rating of the battery bank, so that the rest of the charge in the battery can be used for
    other loads at the same time as charging the other bank(s).

    Bud

    I have never heard of impedance matching the C20 rate........ can you explain a bit more what you mean by this? usually a batteries internal impedance is down in the milliohms and you match the coil with a cap dump on the output, as a cap has almost zero impedance.

    Tom C


    experimental Kits, chargers and solar trackers

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom C View Post
    I have never heard of impedance matching the C20 rate........ can you explain a bit more what you mean by this? usually a batteries internal impedance is down in the milliohms and you match the coil with a cap dump on the output, as a cap has almost zero impedance.

    Tom C
    Hello,

    Most of the text above is from the Beginners Guide that Rick F., Richard L. and I composed from various posts of JB's, Romers and various other sources in the very beginning of the SG and SSG builders groups, and was slowly updated over the years as new info became available.......

    "NOTES ON BATTERIES AND COILS IMPEDANCE MATCHING
    • Ideally the impedance of each coil should match the C20 rate for the batteries."

    The above part is from Miki's edited version of that original beginners guide posted on the the SG group just before JB had Sterling shut the SG Yahoo group down.

    on smaller SG/SSG's you need to match the SSG or SG current draw to the C20 rate of a given battery so that the SG/SSG Current draw is lower than that batterys C20 rate, NOT the impedance....

    In a different but related concept, on the bigger muilty Strand, muilty Coil SSG units like mine, at 48 strands of 18ga at 120ft, when you take each strand in parallel, {from memory} that = approx 0.002 ohms, which = the approx internal resistance of a Large Battery like a golf cart battery. This is what is meant by matching the impedance's on a SSG energizer to the battery's, but the current draw of the muilty Strand muilty Coil SSG should be way, way lower than the C20 of that size battery........

    to John K and Tom C. FYI
    During the early days of Sterling A's. SG Yahoo forum, Miki was one of the worst critics of JB's work, then right at the end, he must have seen something, as he did a complete 180 and started promoting the tech, and did the edit of the guide and posted it, and that edited guide is what is still on the SG Group now....... but he still did not know what was happening, as His guide edit, has many, many problems, and is NOT the same as the original Beginner's Guide, which was the way we were seeing it at the time, and may not be as accurate as the newer information you guys have compiled since then...........................

  6. #6
    The C20 rate is for charging also?Because in Batteriesecrets from Peter Lindeman they showing chargingcharts where you can see that one charging cycle lasts only 5 hours.
    I have one 8filiar coil and each strand has 2.6 ohm and with one coil i need 6 days to charge a 90ah battery(new), drive draws 1 amp 13.6v and charging is 0.7 amp with 470v spikes,i am at the beginning with the chargingcycles.JB says you have to take big batteries because in the small you cant see the effect.Is there no formula to calculate the impedance,because all other seems to me like guessing.
    Is it possible to get to small batteries but not to get to big?Why it is allways talked about the amp draw on the drive side and not at the charging side.I thougt this machine charges with potential and not with current,but when i count the amp on the chargingside then i get with 0.7amp x24h~16.8amp a day x6~100amp
    or is this only because my batteries are not conditioned?
    Last edited by forelle; 12-07-2012 at 12:20 AM.

  7. #7
    Senior Member John_Koorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by forelle View Post
    The C20 rate is for charging also?Because in Batteriesecrets from Peter Lindeman they showing chargingcharts where you can see that one charging cycle lasts only 5 hours.
    I have one 8filiar coil and each strand has 2.6 ohm and with one coil i need 6 days to charge a 90ah battery(new), drive draws 1 amp 13.6v and charging is 0.7 amp with 470v spikes,i am at the beginning with the chargingcycles.JB says you have to take big batteries because in the small you cant see the effect.Is there no formula to calculate the impedance,because all other seems to me like guessing.
    Is it possible to get to small batteries but not to get to big?Why it is allways talked about the amp draw on the drive side and not at the charging side.I thougt this machine charges with potential and not with current,but when i count the amp on the chargingside then i get with 0.7amp x24h~16.8amp a day x6~100amp
    or is this only because my batteries are not conditioned?
    Forelle, yes the charge battery is also the C20 rate. The chart from Peter's presentation was made a long time ago, when plates were thick, made from good material and battery repair shops could replace the plates if they failed. Back then batteries were charged with massive amounts of current so they only took 5 hours.

    If you try to do that to a lead acid battery these days they simply would not last and you would need to replace the battery every 6 months or so. Since we are in the battery saving business we always recommend charging at the C20 rate as well.

    Your 8 filar coil sounds like it has too much wire on it as 2.6 ohms which is probably why it takes 6 days to charge a 90Ah battery, which is also too big for your setup. You want a battery that can charge up from 12.2v in about 10 - 12 hours, this is why we always say to size the battery to the machine.

    JB gave out the formula for calculating battery impedance - search his posts on this forum.

    Personally I never measure the conventional current going into the charge battery, I'm only concerned about how much energy I get out of it at the C20 rate.

    John K.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Tom C's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS_ View Post
    Hello,

    Most of the text above is from the Beginners Guide that Rick F., Richard L. and I composed from various posts of JB's, Romers and various other sources in the very beginning of the SG and SSG builders groups, and was slowly updated over the years as new info became available.......

    "NOTES ON BATTERIES AND COILS IMPEDANCE MATCHING
    • Ideally the impedance of each coil should match the C20 rate for the batteries."

    The above part is from Miki's edited version of that original beginners guide posted on the the SG group just before JB had Sterling shut the SG Yahoo group down.

    on smaller SG/SSG's you need to match the SSG or SG current draw to the C20 rate of a given battery so that the SG/SSG Current draw is lower than that batterys C20 rate, NOT the impedance....

    In a different but related concept, on the bigger muilty Strand, muilty Coil SSG units like mine, at 48 strands of 18ga at 120ft, when you take each strand in parallel, {from memory} that = approx 0.002 ohms, which = the approx internal resistance of a Large Battery like a golf cart battery. This is what is meant by matching the impedance's on a SSG energizer to the battery's, but the current draw of the muilty Strand muilty Coil SSG should be way, way lower than the C20 of that size battery........

    to John K and Tom C. FYI
    During the early days of Sterling A's. SG Yahoo forum, Miki was one of the worst critics of JB's work, then right at the end, he must have seen something, as he did a complete 180 and started promoting the tech, and did the edit of the guide and posted it, and that edited guide is what is still on the SG Group now....... but he still did not know what was happening, as His guide edit, has many, many problems, and is NOT the same as the original Beginner's Guide, which was the way we were seeing it at the time, and may not be as accurate as the newer information you guys have compiled since then...........................

    Yes I realise that, it was the way the answer was stated that confused me. You are not matching the coils impedance to C20 you are building a machine that will run at the C20 rate from the primary, to charge your batteries. The individual coil impedance is going to be the same for a single machine or multi coil machine, you simply add coils as your needs grow.

    Are you still running the Danny B rotored machines? He had very unique bearings.

    Tom C


    experimental Kits, chargers and solar trackers

  9. #9
    What confuses me is why the battery should be to big,if i compare the 2 machines JB has running in his house,these are 0ne with 10 coils and One with 12 coils,together 22 coils and he has a batterybank with about 2000AH,if i'm right,and my coil is similar to his(i think),so normaly a 90AH battery for a 8 filiar coil(7 power 1 trigger,AWG 18,litz,150feet)should match what is needed,aproximatly.My energizer is designed for 6 coils,but i thought i should beginn first with one coil.I have selected the transistors,resistors and diodes so far i dont know a lot.I have a dual oszilloscope and the h-wave is nearly matching each transistor,but not absolut exactly.I dont know how exactly this has to be.If it's not absolute exactly is then the whole effect gone or only weaker?The best is probably if i condition the batteries first,equal how long it takes I think the battery cant be damaged if it's charged to slow,or?At the moment i have an amp draw of 0,8A primary and charge of 0.8A (analog meter)secondary wich would be good,so i dont loose much,but we all want a COP above one.I'm curious when the day comes that i reach this goal.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Tom C's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by forelle View Post
    What confuses me is why the battery should be to big,if i compare the 2 machines JB has running in his house,these are 0ne with 10 coils and One with 12 coils,together 22 coils and he has a batterybank with about 2000AH,if i'm right,and my coil is similar to his(i think),so normaly a 90AH battery for a 8 filiar coil(7 power 1 trigger,AWG 18,litz,150feet)should match what is needed,aproximatly.My energizer is designed for 6 coils,but i thought i should beginn first with one coil.I have selected the transistors,resistors and diodes so far i dont know a lot.I have a dual oszilloscope and the h-wave is nearly matching each transistor,but not absolut exactly.I dont know how exactly this has to be.If it's not absolute exactly is then the whole effect gone or only weaker?The best is probably if i condition the batteries first,equal how long it takes I think the battery cant be damaged if it's charged to slow,or?At the moment i have an amp draw of 0,8A primary and charge of 0.8A (analog meter)secondary wich would be good,so i dont loose much,but we all want a COP above one.I'm curious when the day comes that i reach this goal.

    Forelle,

    you seek what we all seek. all of John's machinse were built with specific things in mind, including testing for geometry of coils, magnet spacing etc. he is not running his 10 coil and 12 coil together charging the same bank. they were done seperately.

    but let me give you some things that may help:

    1- until you can get hi cop values with a large single coil multifilar machine, dont even try to step up to a multi coil machine, you are wasting your time. so keep working with the single coil machine.
    2- normally an 18 gauge coil is quad filar, pentafilar with the trigger wire, your inductance may be off, I will look at some specs of coils I have.
    3- you match the transistors with base current, not by matching the H wave. if your coil wires are the exact length and resistance individually, and your transistors are matched and your resistors and diodes match, all your collector outputs should be the same.
    4- dont worry about charge current to the charge battery. just worry about running under C20 of your primary.

    keep experimenting with your machine, changing one thing at a time, and watching for improvements.

    Tom C


    experimental Kits, chargers and solar trackers

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