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Thread: Back EMF and unidirectional coils.

  1. #1

    Back EMF and unidirectional coils.

    I encounterd a couple of places online that showed how to build free energy motors. they were winding their coils unidirectionally. This means that when they had one layer of wire laid they would run it back to the other end again to start the next layer so the spiral of the coil always rotated in the same direction. I found a similar process outlined in an very old book on solenoids from back in the 30s or older. So my thought was maybe back emf is cauesd by the way the modern coils are wound going back and forth so each layer of wire is spiraling the opposite direction. maybe that is why there is a counter current set up in the coils becaues of the counter windings. Has anybody looked into this or experimented with it?? Maybe there is something happening in the interaction with the magnetic field and the angle of the windings that nobody has looked into. Makes more sense in my mind to have all the spirals going the same direction instead of the way everybody does it now going back and forth. maybe that is where all the heat and inefficiency comes from.
    The unidirection coils are much harder to wind and I rarely see anybody doing it. Why is this?
    Last edited by vzon17; 12-02-2012 at 04:14 PM.

  2. #2
    Hi there,
    In my opinion, BEMF is the resistance caused when say the copper wire or coil is storing a pulsed energy potential. One possible explanation could be the atomic displacement of electrons throughout the wire attempting to revert to their orderly state prior to the advent of the energy potential; returning to a pre-existing state of polarity. Thus BEMF as a process has to neutralise itself somehow. The most observable is a return to equilibirum through the reversal of the potential created within the (compressed energy) wire: returing to its steady state. Hope this helps. Further, if the vacuum theory is to be upheld, BEMF might be a response to non symmetry due to an external polarised field or static field for example. And, this only my humble opinion.

    Regards

    Edit: as an after thought, you might like to try and read the polarity surrounding the coils when there is a BEMF being exhibited. You might also like to consider the notion of "suck and push" in response to your reported observations. What you might witness, in miniature, is a vortex opening and collapsing about the wire or coil.

    Regards
    Last edited by Dwane Dibley; 01-21-2013 at 10:44 PM.

  3. #3
    @vzon17 -

    Great questions! In response to the question about that particular winding style & does it cause BEMF - my friend just wound a coil like this, and is using it as a generator coil, pulsed with an energizer style geometry. We have observed no special effects such as BEMF suppression from this winding style, but I should clarify a couple things first. Just to make sure I have it right - the coil is wound such that you put down an entire layer, then run the wire completely perpendicular to the layer windings, all the way back to the side that you started from, and then wind another layer. (etc, etc) This is the coil style that my friend made.

    One other term I'd like to quantify is BEMF. BEMF in a motor coil, from my understanding, is simply the generator function of a coil. (Electric Motor Secrets disc 1, Peter Lindemann) My friend is using his coil as a generator coil, not a motor coil, and it does indeed generate quite well. This would then mean that it generates BEMF quite well - not what you are looking for.

    If you're looking for BEMF suppression, I understand that the zero force motor does this quite well. Peter Lindemann built a great example, and you can find it on youtube here: ZERO FORCE MOTOR John Bedini - YouTube

    Paul Babcock's motor is, in my opinion, the same as a zero force motor. He presented on it at the last conference, as well as a lot of great info on understanding magnetics. His presentation can be found here: Magnetic Energy Secrets by Paul Babcock

    I highly recommend watching both of those to gain a greater perspective of the subject. Of course, the earlier mentioned Electric Motor Secrets Part 1 is an amazing resource as well! You can find it here: Free Energy, Products, Books and DVDs

    I am in the process of building an electromagnetic coil utilizing steel wire (couldn't find iron), which also seems to be a BEMF suppression route. I've experimented with a couple of these, and my bicycle wheel energizer rotating past this coil does not seem to generate voltage at all. There are a couple caveats to this - steel wire has about 10 times the resistance that an equivalent copper wire would have. (BTW - I'm using clothesline found at my local Canadian Tire - turns out to be around 16 gauge, and is insulated. 100' of this comes out to about 4.8 ohms)

    Also, if your steel wire coil is right close to the rotating magnets of your rotor, you will probably lose more in magnetic drag than you gain in having no BEMF. I am now trying to get around this by using a core of r-45 welding rod, extending 1.25 inches out of the coil end. This is far enough away that in my experiments, it has caused no excess drag on the rotor. It should be close enough that the magnetic flux density hopefully will be very strong yet. More experimenting to do...

    Hope this helps!
    Daniel
    Last edited by emfimp; 01-29-2013 at 10:04 PM.

  4. #4
    Hi Daniel,

    I have some problem in getting your steel wire approach as a route to BEMF supression. I agree with you saying BEMF is simply the generator function of a coil. This is okay because a length of wire in a coil form is moved (rotated) between facing magnetic poles. I do not think that using different metals as conductors for such coils change this induction. I know you did not say that but:
    as you have not specified yet how your coil made of steel wire is positioned with respect to the rotor magnets so if you place such steel wire coil(s) as is shown in the zero force motor, then I do not think you need to use steel wire, (copper is ok) the core made of welding rods sounds good enough, besides normal ferrite or laminated cores.
    So would you explain why a "coil using steel wire seems to be a BEMF suppression", I would appreciate it.

    Thanks, Gyula

  5. #5
    Hi Gyula,

    Using different metals for conductors of coils definitely makes a difference! To understand this better, I suggest researching the difference between paramagnetism, ferromagnetism, and diamagnetism. Paramagnetic and ferromagnetic effects are almost the same, and represent the effects that occur with a steel conductor coil. Copper is diamagnetic, and so has a completely different way of responding to magnetic fields.

    Here is what Wikipedia has to say:
    Paramagnetism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Ferromagnetism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Diamagnetism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    You are quite right - a zero force motor would do best (from my knowledge) with a copper coil. I am using the steel coil in an energizer type setup - basically exactly like John Bedini's bicycle wheel energizer kit. (Bedini SSG Monopole Energizer Motor Kit)

    Steel wire seems to suppress BEMF because of ferromagnetism. The magnetic field of the rotor magnet, as it approaches the coil, would cause a copper coil to create a magnetic field that opposes the field of the rotor magnet. Steel contains iron, which is always attracted to a magnetic field, and does not generate an opposing field such as copper does.

    The zero force motor may have a large advantage over even an iron conductor coil though - I've just re-read a page that I haven't seen for years, and it sheds a lot of light on what is going on in this motor. You can find it here: The Mini-Romag explanation ?

    This article is worth reading over & over, until you fully understand all of it. From this article, I believe that Peter is firing his zero force motor coils for almost the entire time that the rotor magnet is passing over the coil. This should allow for large torque generation, while the radiant capture will probably be less. If built right, I believe it should produce a COP significantly over 1.0.

    :-)
    Daniel

  6. #6
    Hi Daniel,

    Thanks for your kind answer. Well, I have been aware of para, ferro and diamagnetic type of materials and already also thought of a "what if" pondering on using iron wire coils in pulse motors but has not tested such setups. I was thinking on how the Lenz current in the iron wire coil may manifest because indeed its opposing flux field must "bend" back towards the coil wire turns... I guess this may have a heating effect as a minimum harm, there must be some "punishment" from Nature, LOL it would be way too simple to able to get rid of the opposing field just by iron wire...
    Now that I write this, suddenly I recall John Bedini has done a very simple pulse motor with iron wire coil and indeed I found these:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8vnHVV25tU

    and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPOhmJgyUME
    Well I have to study this further to fully understand any advantage from the usage of iron wire from Lenz point of view.

    Thanks for the link on the Mini-Romag generator, years ago I went through on it then I forgot, though I remember the tangentially positioned coil induced waveform.

    Regarding the switching sequence of the zero force motor (with copper wire), I think first you may wish to attract in the approaching rotor magnet, this pulse gives a first torque to the rotor, then you switch current off maybe halfway before magnet gets to coil center, the magnet passes through coil center and beyond and then you switch on the current again in the coil in opposite direction to repel out the rotor magnet, this gives an additional torque again. What you say that current may be ON for almost the entire time the magnet passes the coil lengthwise I cannot accept yet, I will think this over again.

    rgds, Gyula
    Last edited by Gyula; 02-01-2013 at 06:20 AM. Reason: spelling

  7. #7
    Thanks for the vids, Gyula! I hadn't seen those yet, but they are extremely helpful!

    I see what you're meaning about nature's governor here - I have only tried using the steel coil as a generator coil so far, as well as hooking it up to 60 hz AC. The gen application sees no heating, as there is no reaction to the mag field, but 60 hz definitely sees heating. Using it in a motor application may begin to see heating also, as now there is an active field interacting with the rotor. Good point. I am hoping that the collecting of the radiant pulse will dissipate some of the heating effects - it certainly seems to when using copper.

    The switching sequence you describe sounds exactly like Paul Babcock's switching, which may indeed be the only efficient way to switch. However, reading the Mini-Romag page, he is saying that the high voltage seen when the rotor passes the center of the coil, is actually produced by the mag field collapsing, not by the rotor passing the coil. At this point, he states that "there is no magnetic coupling between the rotor (magnets) and the stator (coil) during the positive phase of the signal generated." (direct quote)

    So while I need to experiment with this myself, what that statement tells me is that the center of the coil is the point where there is no counter emf from rotor rotation - meaning that is the opportune time to fire your coil, and see the greatest flux generated for the amount of power you input. Looking at the rest of the waveform, really your counter emf is low the entire time that the magnet is sweeping past the coil. So what I would do is fire the coil for the entire time the magnet is sweeping past it. If you have a north pole magnet, then at the beginning of the coil, you would energize the coil, and ensure that a north pole was created at the end the rotor magnet is positioned at. This would repel the rotor magnet, at the same time the far end of the same coil would be generating a south, pulling the rotor towards it. Thus it would continue to apply force to the rotor until the north pole rotor magnet reaches the south pole of the stator, & your switching mechanism would de-energize the coil(s). At the same time, if your rotor magnets are N - S - N - S, then the south pole magnet that is 90 degrees behind the above mentioned north pole, would be repelled from the south pole on the other stator coil, and attracted to the north pole on the first coil. This would probably increase efficiency, and add to the torque generated, without drawing any extra power.

    This is just one thought on the possible switching of this. Peter's setup causes me to think this may be true - he has 2 magnets on each side of the timing wheel, which would hold the reed switches on for a longer period of time. However, it is also difficult to see if his 4 rotor magnets are positioned at 45 degrees to horizontal, or right on the horizontal & vertical, when the rotor is stopped.

    He also has 2 different colors of windings on the stator coils, which makes me wonder if he has some kind of trigger coil tied into the switching - maybe something to cause many short firings of the coils instead of one continuous long one? (Like John Bedini's classic trigger coil does for his energizer setups - firing the coil several times as a single magnet sweeps by) Maybe you could help us out here, Peter? :-)

    Also looks like he may have the full bipolar Bedini Cole switch here, so I'm guessing the rotor magnets are N - S - N - S, and the coils are wired in series with each other, alternately firing one direction, then the other. Any thoughts on this?

    Appreciation,
    Daniel
    Last edited by emfimp; 01-31-2013 at 09:07 PM.

  8. #8

  9. #9
    Thanks for sharing that vid, forelle! It looks like the real thing!

    Just one question - at the end of the video, he's talking about negating Lenz's Law through utilizing high voltage, and almost no current. He says that Lenz's Law is dependent on current - no current, no Lenz effect. Doesn't Lenz's Law also depend on the number of turns of wire, which would be how you create voltage? All the resources I've found (like Wikipedia) only have equations of the EMF or voltage generated when a magnet passes some wire - has anyone found resources that give equations dealing with the currents generated in such a reaction?

    I know that you could probably substitute V=IR into the equation - just hoping maybe there is a more detailed analysis somewhere...

    Thanks!
    Daniel

  10. #10
    Hi Daniel,

    I have gone through the Mini Romag mot/gen setup, still the foggiest things are why the copper covered steel wires are needed to be wound onto the permanent magnets (if this is indeed the case) and where are these series coil ends are connected to? (I know in the part list the components numbered as #8, #9, #10, #13 deal with these steel wires.)
    Well, nevermind, the info on how the induction happens in the tangentially positioned coil is of real value, namely a diode placed in parallel with the coil to cut down the bemf positive peak did not affect rotor speed and when the coil is connected to a power supply (up to 1.37A in that setup), Naudin did not notice significant change in rotor speed. Also, the lack of magnetic flux connection between the rotor magnet and the coil during the positive part of the bemf voltage is an advantage too.
    So far I was thinking of somehow utilizing the positive part of this bemf voltage and this is why I wrote pulsing the coil to pull the magnet in and then repel it out with short pulses so that most of the time while the magnet passes the coil you do not force any current into it because at long ON time the low inner impedance of your power supply with a switch in series with it would greatly shunt that positive part of the bemf anyway (what is more, the supply current (as bad luck may have it) should work against this positive amplitude first).
    However, it is also possible that not utilizing the positive bemf is not a big loss and what you think to fire the coil for most of the time the magnet sweeps past the coil is also a possible opportunity and your switching sequence with the alternating pole rotor magnets also makes sense in that case.

    Regarding Peter's build, I think he positioned 4 rotor magnets right on the horizontal and vertical but there might be 4 additional magnets at 45 degrees to horizontal, too (these latter might be shorter ones than the first 4 at horizontal and vertical).
    I can also see 2 different colours of windings and I can see 4 + 4 wire ends coming out from the stator box on the left and 4 + 4 wire ends on the right but these must be connected together in a certain logic of course because much less wires go towards the switching circuits. I tend to think that one such 4+4 group on the left is all paralleled so that there remained 2 wires to connect to one Bedini-Cole switching circuit and also the other 4+4 group on the right is also paralleled and the resulting 2 wires are connected to the other Bedini-Cole switching circuit, for I believe the 4 power transistors represent two such (independent) switches. And because these switches are controlled by reed switches I do not suppose there are kind of trigger coils in the stator box. The 4+4 wire ends twice may represent 8 coils alltogether, of which four are maybe made of the green colour wire. I believe one Bedini-Cole switch drives one of the 4 coil groups, the other one drives the other 4 coil group. (If there are indeed 8 coils, then possibly there are 8 magnets in the rotor.) Within a 4 coil group the coils could be also in series, above I supposed them in parallel, they are not shown clearly. The magnets can be also all N out but can be NSNS too, these are possibilities. It would be good to learn.

    rgds, Gyula

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