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Thread: ZFM Advanced Explorations

  1. #61
    Senior Member Yaro1776's Avatar
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    @ RS,

    Thanks big time for the 3 coil window motor pics and Hall timing arrangement. It would be of use to know how the 3 coiler stacked up performance wise versus the usual 2 coil window motor.

    I assume that the duty cycle of the Hall switch timing method can be altered by the positioning of the Hall switches in and out with the timing dependent on the initial positioning of the timing rotor. True?

    My main reservation in using the Hall method with the Neo timing wheel is the impact of the reversing coil fields on the timing rotor fields. The existing ZFM timing and reed switches are definitely impacted by the coil fields.

    Anyway, the next ZFM build will probably start coming together late summer - the timing method (Hall or Optical) can wait a bit until things start coming together.

    @ Aaron,

    Did a short experiment varying the ZFM voltage input (24v, 36v, 48v, 54v and 60v) under a constant torque load and the results are as expected. For the lower speed and high torque ZFM configuration there are initial big jumps in power output and input as the RPM increases due to the voltage rise. This impact, however diminishes as the voltage is raised to the maximum with the overall efficiency dropping as the voltage is increased. All the testing over the past two years does suggest the higher voltages do not contribute much beyond more heat and lower efficiency, at least for the present ZFM configuration.

    The design limits of the current Torque testing method and BiPolar switch preclude pushing the performance to the torque limits possible under the higher voltages of 48v and 60v.

    Ciao,
    Yaro

    "The Universe is under no obligation to make sense to you." -Neil Degrasse Tyson

  2. #62
    Yaro,

    Yes that is True on adjusting the Pulse width.... and then adjust the position of the timing wheel magnets to the coils, for the firing angle

    These timing magnets are ceramic the same as JB has used on other things, and ya need to have some distance from the field coils so that they don't interfere with the timing, but with the hall sw, their range of sensing is quite short....

    On this 2011 Kit, the 3 coil JB/Cole circuit vastly out preformed the original single coil SSG circuit that the kit was supplied with, as to be expected.

    This little window motor kit is no comparison in size to any of the window motors that JB built....

    I only ran this window motor kit in this 3 coil BJ/Cole config for a limited time, as other work / JB projects ensued, and all the meters, etc... got used for other purposes..

    I wanted to add a generator rotor / magnets / coils to this WM, but never got around to 3D printing the rotor design that i made in Freecad for it......
    Last edited by RS_; 04-03-2019 at 10:34 AM.

  3. #63
    Senior Member Yaro1776's Avatar
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    RS,

    Definitely good feedback with respect to the timing magnets - confirms my observations by a separate source, though with a different motor.

    The three coil and six Neo rotor ZFM design is definitely on my design list for a major trial configuration. It certainly is applicable in this instance - it makes sense. I intend to stick with JB's concept of a wide dead space between the motor coils for the time being with the R. Cole 6 coil config as a backup method.

    There is no rush here with that experimentation for the time being, since my attention has been focused on the Bemf of the ZFM. Manipulating the impact of the Bemf upon motor performance has certainly been a very interesting diversion - much to be learned from this black-hole. I may share these particular experiments and the results in the future as time and/or ambition permits. It is all very arcane, and perhaps not really of interest to the majority of readers of this thread.

    Never a dull moment with this stuff....
    Last edited by Yaro1776; 04-03-2019 at 02:12 PM.
    Yaro

    "The Universe is under no obligation to make sense to you." -Neil Degrasse Tyson

  4. #64
    Networking Architect Aaron Murakami's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yaro1776 View Post
    @ Aaron,

    Did a short experiment varying the ZFM voltage input (24v, 36v, 48v, 54v and 60v) under a constant torque load and the results are as expected. For the lower speed and high torque ZFM configuration there are initial big jumps in power output and input as the RPM increases due to the voltage rise. This impact, however diminishes as the voltage is raised to the maximum with the overall efficiency dropping as the voltage is increased. All the testing over the past two years does suggest the higher voltages do not contribute much beyond more heat and lower efficiency, at least for the present ZFM configuration.

    The design limits of the current Torque testing method and BiPolar switch preclude pushing the performance to the torque limits possible under the higher voltages of 48v and 60v.

    Ciao,
    I think the higher voltage experience you have might apply to a smaller motor but it may change as it is scaled up.

    With larger coils, the recovery becomes more significant.

    Also, with higher voltage and scaling up - a 2 volt drop on a component for 12 volts is 17% loss but a 2 volt drop on a component for 60 volts is only 3% loss - for example of one way higher voltages automatically could translate to higher efficiencies.
    Aaron Murakami





    You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete. ― Richard Buckminster Fuller

  5. #65
    Senior Member Yaro1776's Avatar
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    ZFM Big Coils

    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron Murakami View Post
    I think the higher voltage experience you have might apply to a smaller motor but it may change as it is scaled up.

    With larger coils, the recovery becomes more significant.

    Also, with higher voltage and scaling up - a 2 volt drop on a component for 12 volts is 17% loss but a 2 volt drop on a component for 60 volts is only 3% loss - for example of one way higher voltages automatically could translate to higher efficiencies.
    I am not sure what you mean by "larger Coils" - is it dimensionally or thicker wire or both? J McDonald's ZFM used fat wire (#16 versus #20) single strand for each coil. In the JZFM limited testing of 4/28/18 at my Vermont lab, we did see the performance and efficiency improve as we raised the voltage from 24v to 42v. We were unable to push it further due to the limits of the torque testing rig. There were a couple of other quirks with this ZFM that have not been investigated to date. Unfortunately, James lives 500 miles away from my northern lab and as yet we have not been able to do another more complete round of JZFM tests. The results data sheet of the JZFM was shown in a slide towards the tail end of the 2018 conference Hidden Dance presentation.

    You have made some good points here and it is noted!
    Thanks for your thoughts and suggestions...
    Last edited by Yaro1776; 04-04-2019 at 05:22 AM. Reason: typo
    Yaro

    "The Universe is under no obligation to make sense to you." -Neil Degrasse Tyson

  6. #66
    Networking Architect Aaron Murakami's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yaro1776 View Post
    I am not sure what you mean by "larger Coils" - is it dimensionally or thicker wire or both? J McDonald's ZFM used fat wire (#16 versus #20) single strand for each coil. In the JZFM limited testing of 4/28/18 at my Vermont lab, we did see the performance and efficiency improve as we raised the voltage from 24v to 42v. We were unable to push it further due to the limits of the torque testing rig. There were a couple of other quirks with this ZFM that have not been investigated to date. Unfortunately, James lives 500 miles away from my northern lab and as yet we have not been able to do another more complete round of JZFM tests. The results data sheet of the JZFM was shown in a slide towards the tail end of the 2018 conference Hidden Dance presentation.

    You have made some good points here and it is noted!
    Thanks for your thoughts and suggestions...
    By larger coils, I mean overall just having a much larger build like a 12" diameter rotor.
    Aaron Murakami





    You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete. ― Richard Buckminster Fuller

  7. #67
    Senior Member Yaro1776's Avatar
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    ZFM Multi Voltage Torque Test

    Hello to all,

    To close out the long running test program of the original YZFM motor a series of torque tests were executed to demonstrate that one of the ZFM design goals was achieved. The final rotor design remained 4 pole with 1"LX1"Wx1/2"T N52 Neo's, but the coil to Neo edge gap was minimized to the practical limit of about 0.040" with an overall duty cycle of 65%. The timing advance is about 50 degrees. As the gap is minimized the Neo magnet edges begin to play a much greater role in the timing and performance. The torque characteristics of the motor are greatly enhanced with this approach with a reduction in achievable maximum speed.

    The Torque test was designed to have a constant torque load of 0.31 ft-lb applied to the motor shaft for the voltage range of 24v, 36v, 48v and 60v. In every instance the input voltage, amperage, RPM and load were recorded. In addition, the BiPolar switch was outfitted with the R. Cole inductive spike recovery circuit fed back to the input side of the BP switch.

    For reference purposes the unloaded performance for each voltage is as follows:

    24.0v 4890 RPM at 0.71A
    36.0v 7200 RPM at 0.80A
    48.0v 9800 RPM at 0.90A
    60.0v 10800 RPM at 1.02A

    The first test under load was for 24v - an acid test for the ZFM with a loaded cold start. The test progressed sequentially through the voltages. The basic performance parameters under the constant load of 0.31 ft-lb are as follows:

    24.0v 2466 RPM at 1.45A
    36.0v 4425 RPM at 1.54A
    48.0v 6088 RPM at 1.57A
    60.0V 7625 RPM at 1.56A

    The nominal output/input efficiency hovered at about 30%. So review the test video via this link:



    The video presents the YZFM operating under load and at the tail end of the video at 60v one leg of the BP switch is disabled. The YZFM continues to run, albeit at a reduced speed and amperage - this can be duplicated at the lower voltages, though some reduction in load is required. During the one leg operation one will note that the underlying BEMF voltage is visible on the Oscope.

    The last part of the video demonstrates the BEMF curve with the spikes from the Cole circuit when the input power is off. This BEMF curve is much more dramatic upon shutdown when the ZFM is unloaded.

    BTW, after the video was completed another test was run at 60v at a torque load of 0.46 ft-lb yielding:
    60.0v 6490 RPM at 1.97A with about the same efficiency. The motor coils were starting to get warmish.

    Thank you for your attention,
    Last edited by Yaro1776; 05-04-2019 at 06:13 AM. Reason: more data
    Yaro

    "The Universe is under no obligation to make sense to you." -Neil Degrasse Tyson

  8. #68
    Senior Member James McDonald's Avatar
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    ZFM Coils Powering a Buck Boost Supply to run a 120 Volt Light Bulb

    Greetings --

    It been a while since I have posted anything here on the Energy Science Forum. I have not stopped doing research for the quest of generating power to run a useful device. Check out my new video showing the usage of the power off the ZFM coils.

    Power Input: Three 100 watt solar panels wired in series that will put out 66 volts at 4 amps in full Sun.
    (I measured maximum 55 volts in the Sun at 12 noon EST in Maryland.)
    Power Output: Power off the ZFM coils was powering a 50 Amp Full Wave Bridge.
    Power Input Buck Boost: 10 volts up to 60 Volts input.
    Power Output Buck Boost: 90 Volts up to 120 volts.
    Light Bulb used: 120 VAC 6 Watt LED Light Bulb. (Day Light 5000K)
    The LED light bulb will not light up if the output voltage from the Buck Boost fell below 87 volts.

    Hope you enjoy the video.

    -- James

    https://youtu.be/-sDcE_xCZS4


  9. #69
    Hey Yaro,

    Your ZFM presentation from the 2019 ESTC is outstanding. I am just working on reading through this thread but wanted to let you know I am following this closely. I am working on building my own and am almost done. I'll upload some pics and vids when I can. I have a good 3d printer which is a big help. If you ever need anything printed up I am happy to help. I also have 10 year experience with electronics and am very comfortable building the H-Bridge/Bi-Polar circuits so I can always help you with that as well. I am very happy to see you doing alot of torque testing. Extremely interesting stuff!
    Talk soon,

    -J

  10. #70
    Senior Member Yaro1776's Avatar
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    Joster,

    Thanks for the positive feedback on my ZFM presentation - assume you meant ESTC 2018. Anyway, it is encouraging to read that you are doing a ZFM build and using a 3D printer for the parts - good of you to offer assistance on the 3D printer end, may be very useful. Your electronics experience may come in handy as the opto timing end starts coming together. The reed switches are OK for the simpler builds, but leave a lot to be desired when the timing and duty cycle require more precision/adjustment range.

    The torque testing is an integral part of defining the developed power characteristics of the ZFM and overall performance of any build. Pain in the butt to do all this, but an essential part in evaluating the progress of design modifications. The original torque testing device, while very simple, has almost reached its applied load limit. The next step here is to design a Prony brake for this application - just one of the projects for the winter test program.

    If you have any relevant questions with respect to design and operational parameters, well feel free to ask and I will attempt to answer them.

    Good luck with your ZFM project!
    Yaro

    "The Universe is under no obligation to make sense to you." -Neil Degrasse Tyson

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