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Thread: ZFM Advanced Explorations

  1. #61
    Senior Member Yaro1776's Avatar
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    @ RS,

    Thanks big time for the 3 coil window motor pics and Hall timing arrangement. It would be of use to know how the 3 coiler stacked up performance wise versus the usual 2 coil window motor.

    I assume that the duty cycle of the Hall switch timing method can be altered by the positioning of the Hall switches in and out with the timing dependent on the initial positioning of the timing rotor. True?

    My main reservation in using the Hall method with the Neo timing wheel is the impact of the reversing coil fields on the timing rotor fields. The existing ZFM timing and reed switches are definitely impacted by the coil fields.

    Anyway, the next ZFM build will probably start coming together late summer - the timing method (Hall or Optical) can wait a bit until things start coming together.

    @ Aaron,

    Did a short experiment varying the ZFM voltage input (24v, 36v, 48v, 54v and 60v) under a constant torque load and the results are as expected. For the lower speed and high torque ZFM configuration there are initial big jumps in power output and input as the RPM increases due to the voltage rise. This impact, however diminishes as the voltage is raised to the maximum with the overall efficiency dropping as the voltage is increased. All the testing over the past two years does suggest the higher voltages do not contribute much beyond more heat and lower efficiency, at least for the present ZFM configuration.

    The design limits of the current Torque testing method and BiPolar switch preclude pushing the performance to the torque limits possible under the higher voltages of 48v and 60v.

    Ciao,
    Yaro

    "The Universe is under no obligation to make sense to you." -Neil Degrasse Tyson

  2. #62
    Yaro,

    Yes that is True on adjusting the Pulse width.... and then adjust the position of the timing wheel magnets to the coils, for the firing angle

    These timing magnets are ceramic the same as JB has used on other things, and ya need to have some distance from the field coils so that they don't interfere with the timing, but with the hall sw, their range of sensing is quite short....

    On this 2011 Kit, the 3 coil JB/Cole circuit vastly out preformed the original single coil SSG circuit that the kit was supplied with, as to be expected.

    This little window motor kit is no comparison in size to any of the window motors that JB built....

    I only ran this window motor kit in this 3 coil BJ/Cole config for a limited time, as other work / JB projects ensued, and all the meters, etc... got used for other purposes..

    I wanted to add a generator rotor / magnets / coils to this WM, but never got around to 3D printing the rotor design that i made in Freecad for it......
    Last edited by RS_; 04-03-2019 at 10:34 AM.

  3. #63
    Senior Member Yaro1776's Avatar
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    RS,

    Definitely good feedback with respect to the timing magnets - confirms my observations by a separate source, though with a different motor.

    The three coil and six Neo rotor ZFM design is definitely on my design list for a major trial configuration. It certainly is applicable in this instance - it makes sense. I intend to stick with JB's concept of a wide dead space between the motor coils for the time being with the R. Cole 6 coil config as a backup method.

    There is no rush here with that experimentation for the time being, since my attention has been focused on the Bemf of the ZFM. Manipulating the impact of the Bemf upon motor performance has certainly been a very interesting diversion - much to be learned from this black-hole. I may share these particular experiments and the results in the future as time and/or ambition permits. It is all very arcane, and perhaps not really of interest to the majority of readers of this thread.

    Never a dull moment with this stuff....
    Last edited by Yaro1776; 04-03-2019 at 02:12 PM.
    Yaro

    "The Universe is under no obligation to make sense to you." -Neil Degrasse Tyson

  4. #64
    Networking Architect Aaron Murakami's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yaro1776 View Post
    @ Aaron,

    Did a short experiment varying the ZFM voltage input (24v, 36v, 48v, 54v and 60v) under a constant torque load and the results are as expected. For the lower speed and high torque ZFM configuration there are initial big jumps in power output and input as the RPM increases due to the voltage rise. This impact, however diminishes as the voltage is raised to the maximum with the overall efficiency dropping as the voltage is increased. All the testing over the past two years does suggest the higher voltages do not contribute much beyond more heat and lower efficiency, at least for the present ZFM configuration.

    The design limits of the current Torque testing method and BiPolar switch preclude pushing the performance to the torque limits possible under the higher voltages of 48v and 60v.

    Ciao,
    I think the higher voltage experience you have might apply to a smaller motor but it may change as it is scaled up.

    With larger coils, the recovery becomes more significant.

    Also, with higher voltage and scaling up - a 2 volt drop on a component for 12 volts is 17% loss but a 2 volt drop on a component for 60 volts is only 3% loss - for example of one way higher voltages automatically could translate to higher efficiencies.
    Aaron Murakami





    You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete. ― Richard Buckminster Fuller

  5. #65
    Senior Member Yaro1776's Avatar
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    ZFM Big Coils

    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron Murakami View Post
    I think the higher voltage experience you have might apply to a smaller motor but it may change as it is scaled up.

    With larger coils, the recovery becomes more significant.

    Also, with higher voltage and scaling up - a 2 volt drop on a component for 12 volts is 17% loss but a 2 volt drop on a component for 60 volts is only 3% loss - for example of one way higher voltages automatically could translate to higher efficiencies.
    I am not sure what you mean by "larger Coils" - is it dimensionally or thicker wire or both? J McDonald's ZFM used fat wire (#16 versus #20) single strand for each coil. In the JZFM limited testing of 4/28/18 at my Vermont lab, we did see the performance and efficiency improve as we raised the voltage from 24v to 42v. We were unable to push it further due to the limits of the torque testing rig. There were a couple of other quirks with this ZFM that have not been investigated to date. Unfortunately, James lives 500 miles away from my northern lab and as yet we have not been able to do another more complete round of JZFM tests. The results data sheet of the JZFM was shown in a slide towards the tail end of the 2018 conference Hidden Dance presentation.

    You have made some good points here and it is noted!
    Thanks for your thoughts and suggestions...
    Last edited by Yaro1776; 04-04-2019 at 05:22 AM. Reason: typo
    Yaro

    "The Universe is under no obligation to make sense to you." -Neil Degrasse Tyson

  6. #66
    Networking Architect Aaron Murakami's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yaro1776 View Post
    I am not sure what you mean by "larger Coils" - is it dimensionally or thicker wire or both? J McDonald's ZFM used fat wire (#16 versus #20) single strand for each coil. In the JZFM limited testing of 4/28/18 at my Vermont lab, we did see the performance and efficiency improve as we raised the voltage from 24v to 42v. We were unable to push it further due to the limits of the torque testing rig. There were a couple of other quirks with this ZFM that have not been investigated to date. Unfortunately, James lives 500 miles away from my northern lab and as yet we have not been able to do another more complete round of JZFM tests. The results data sheet of the JZFM was shown in a slide towards the tail end of the 2018 conference Hidden Dance presentation.

    You have made some good points here and it is noted!
    Thanks for your thoughts and suggestions...
    By larger coils, I mean overall just having a much larger build like a 12" diameter rotor.
    Aaron Murakami





    You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete. ― Richard Buckminster Fuller

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