Bedini RPX Sideband Generator

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Thread: Bedini 1984, 2017 style.

  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by min2oly View Post
    I'm really struggling to find the connection how this data will help the decision making when it comes to running an energizer. I'll continue to keep posted I must be missing something. Does anyone else here follow?
    Correct me if I am wrong....but I believe the idea behind the data is this. Bedini didn't always have the motor section and generator section in one coil as in the sg. He had (I believe) just a pulse circuit like the SG that was very efficient and used that with a flywheel as the prime mover and a generator section of "low drag" coils. From what I have read in this post it appears that what is being tested are the variables for the generator side only. If you know what the best setup is for generation... what gap, magnet configuration, type of magnets ect can produce the best output for a given input, frequency, ect....then from that you can figure out the best setup would be. For instance to many magnets on a wheel cause there to be interference and no "complete off time" in the coils because as one magnet leaves another approaches. So in theory with all the data you can decide what configuration will give you the most out with the least in. From there move on to the prime mover and test multiple configurations against the known best generator configuration.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Bradley Malone View Post
    Correct me if I am wrong....but I believe the idea behind the data is this. Bedini didn't always have the motor section and generator section in one coil as in the sg. He had (I believe) just a pulse circuit like the SG that was very efficient and used that with a flywheel as the prime mover and a generator section of "low drag" coils. From what I have read in this post it appears that what is being tested are the variables for the generator side only. If you know what the best setup is for generation... what gap, magnet configuration, type of magnets ect can produce the best output for a given input, frequency, ect....then from that you can figure out the best setup would be. For instance to many magnets on a wheel cause there to be interference and no "complete off time" in the coils because as one magnet leaves another approaches. So in theory with all the data you can decide what configuration will give you the most out with the least in. From there move on to the prime mover and test multiple configurations against the known best generator configuration.
    I C, so the hunt is for the most efficient conventional generator not to find the best configuration for an "Energizer"/SSG. I was thrown with talk of neo vs ceramic 'n stuff. This "type" of experiment/testing would be amazing for the SSG as well...
    If mimicking the 1984 machine you might want to add a couple more coils and get them off TDC...

  3. #43
    deuis....another thing to think about is this....for a low drag coil, either bedini or lindemann described it not sure wich, but the reason for the large wheel being better is because it makes the coil magnet interaction more vertical. Think of this. when the magnet is approaching or leaving the coil the movement is horizontal to the core. when a current is flowing in the coil that causes resistance to the approach and a drag back on the exit of the magnet. Imagine haveing a rotor sitting still and you aproach one of the magnets with another opposing magnet....if they are directly in line ,in a perfect scenario, the rotor would not be pushes in either direction because the reaction is directly in line with the radius from magnet to rotor shaft. so in a normal configuration of a rotor and generator coil if you only connect the coil to a load during the time that the magnet is vertically aligned then any induced field in the core from current flowing in the coil will only push the magnet vertically into the wheel wich does not cause drag. on a scope if looking at the waveform created by a magnet passing a coil the area between the peaks is what you want to use. it will still cause some drag but the idea is to use the induced voltage "mainly" when the coil magnet and rotor shaft are in alignment causing the back-emf force to not slow rotation. Sorry if this is a jumbled mess my ADHD medication wears off this time of day and well....formulating with words what is in my brain becomes very hard. Other than that THANK YOU for the effort put into collecting this data!

  4. #44
    Hi Bradley,

    Break up your writing with plenty of full stops and paragraphs, should help you out a bit.
    Then you can adress your thoughts in small parts rather than the whole.

    Yes im well aware of the smaller angle of incidence with a larger wheel.

    "when a current is flowing in the coil that causes resistance to the approach and a drag back on the exit of the magnet."
    I think you have this wrong, depending on the polarity it will attract in one direction and resist as it passes Top Dead Centre.
    The idea of the low drag generator is the core attracts the magnet, the coil then turns on diode to drain past TDC and the small charge repels the magnet out.
    So first process is to build the charge without current, then dump charge with current, drain current into something useful, wash rinse repeat.

    The rest of it sounds good.

    Here have some more data.
    8 x 18ga comparisons.JPG

    Quote Originally Posted by Bradley Malone View Post
    deuis....another thing to think about is this....for a low drag coil, either bedini or lindemann described it not sure wich, but the reason for the large wheel being better is because it makes the coil magnet interaction more vertical. Think of this. when the magnet is approaching or leaving the coil the movement is horizontal to the core. when a current is flowing in the coil that causes resistance to the approach and a drag back on the exit of the magnet. Imagine haveing a rotor sitting still and you aproach one of the magnets with another opposing magnet....if they are directly in line ,in a perfect scenario, the rotor would not be pushes in either direction because the reaction is directly in line with the radius from magnet to rotor shaft. so in a normal configuration of a rotor and generator coil if you only connect the coil to a load during the time that the magnet is vertically aligned then any induced field in the core from current flowing in the coil will only push the magnet vertically into the wheel wich does not cause drag. on a scope if looking at the waveform created by a magnet passing a coil the area between the peaks is what you want to use. it will still cause some drag but the idea is to use the induced voltage "mainly" when the coil magnet and rotor shaft are in alignment causing the back-emf force to not slow rotation. Sorry if this is a jumbled mess my ADHD medication wears off this time of day and well....formulating with words what is in my brain becomes very hard. Other than that THANK YOU for the effort put into collecting this data!
    Cant spend it when your dead.

  5. #45
    When , let's say for example, a North Pole is approaching a core it is attracted in. That's a definite. The voltage induced in the coil would be of the polarity that if "used" would cause the core, the end near the magnet, to become a North and would resist the approach.

    Take the same magnet aligned with the core and pull it away, the induced voltage will cause south in the end of the core near the magnet which would resist the magnet "leaving".

    If you are saying that you allow the magnet to be pulled in untill tdc then use the current created from there on untill they are completely separated....then that is just using half of the wave that will cause half of the drag. That mixed with the momentum added to the flywheel from the approach of said magnet sounds like it would be "low drag" but really it is the same.

    Here is why. The voltage induced is due to "rate of change" in the core. If you allow the approach to add momentum to the flywheel from the attraction without "using" the induced voltage then you get more speed. Then as the magnet leaves the core that "speed" creates a higher rate of change therefore inducing a larger voltage that will, when used, cause a larger drag on the magnet leaving the core.

    So in essence you are making a trade that works out the same. Not using the voltage on the approach gives higher speed which in turn gives you more voltage when the magnet leaves the core causing more drag so it equals out to the same as if you just used it like a normal generator.

    When a magnet is approaching, the rate of change peaks before and after tdc. When the magnet approaches the core, as the face of the magnet starts to align with the coil the voltage on a scope will start to rise to a peak. That peak is before tdc when the magnet is about 1/2 to 3/4 coverage of the core. From that point untill tdc the magnet is not putting any more magnetism into the core and the voltage drops to zero at tdc. Same goes for the magnet leaving. The charge in the core is being lowered by the removal of the magnet from the core causing a negative peak somewhere around 1/2 to 3/4 of the alignment. So if you utilize the time when the magnet face is half way aligned with the core on approach and use the induced voltage untill it is half way aligned on the exit. The voltage induced and the drag induced will be MORE vertical than horizontal and will therefore not effect the speed. The core will still be a North to resist approach of a North Pole and south to resist the leaving of a North Pole. But if those poles are only there when most of the resistance would be vertical into the wheel it will not cause a drag proportional to the energy you are using.

  6. #46
    Ok I see where you're going,

    Im not up to that stage yet, this is the wiring for the basic diode test.
    So many combinations, so little time.

    If you have any circuits you wish me to try send them through.

    Diode.JPG


    Quote Originally Posted by Bradley Malone View Post
    When , let's say for example, a North Pole is approaching a core it is attracted in. That's a definite. The voltage induced in the coil would be of the polarity that if "used" would cause the core, the end near the magnet, to become a North and would resist the approach.

    Take the same magnet aligned with the core and pull it away, the induced voltage will cause south in the end of the core near the magnet which would resist the magnet "leaving".

    If you are saying that you allow the magnet to be pulled in untill tdc then use the current created from there on untill they are completely separated....then that is just using half of the wave that will cause half of the drag. That mixed with the momentum added to the flywheel from the approach of said magnet sounds like it would be "low drag" but really it is the same.

    Here is why. The voltage induced is due to "rate of change" in the core. If you allow the approach to add momentum to the flywheel from the attraction without "using" the induced voltage then you get more speed. Then as the magnet leaves the core that "speed" creates a higher rate of change therefore inducing a larger voltage that will, when used, cause a larger drag on the magnet leaving the core.

    So in essence you are making a trade that works out the same. Not using the voltage on the approach gives higher speed which in turn gives you more voltage when the magnet leaves the core causing more drag so it equals out to the same as if you just used it like a normal generator.

    When a magnet is approaching, the rate of change peaks before and after tdc. When the magnet approaches the core, as the face of the magnet starts to align with the coil the voltage on a scope will start to rise to a peak. That peak is before tdc when the magnet is about 1/2 to 3/4 coverage of the core. From that point untill tdc the magnet is not putting any more magnetism into the core and the voltage drops to zero at tdc. Same goes for the magnet leaving. The charge in the core is being lowered by the removal of the magnet from the core causing a negative peak somewhere around 1/2 to 3/4 of the alignment. So if you utilize the time when the magnet face is half way aligned with the core on approach and use the induced voltage untill it is half way aligned on the exit. The voltage induced and the drag induced will be MORE vertical than horizontal and will therefore not effect the speed. The core will still be a North to resist approach of a North Pole and south to resist the leaving of a North Pole. But if those poles are only there when most of the resistance would be vertical into the wheel it will not cause a drag proportional to the energy you are using.
    Last edited by Deuis; 03-05-2018 at 02:27 AM.
    Cant spend it when your dead.

  7. #47
    The only way I know of to do what I am talking about is mechanical or brushed contacts. Solid state would require some kind of peak detection and that just seems like to much when you can just set up a brush contact on one wire.

  8. #48
    I'm sure I could do that.
    If im testing all variants I may as well test all switching too.
    Challenge.jpg


    Quote Originally Posted by Bradley Malone View Post
    The only way I know of to do what I am talking about is mechanical or brushed contacts. Solid state would require some kind of peak detection and that just seems like to much when you can just set up a brush contact on one wire.
    Cant spend it when your dead.

  9. #49
    Senior Member Faraday88's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bradley Malone View Post
    Correct me if I am wrong....but I believe the idea behind the data is this. Bedini didn't always have the motor section and generator section in one coil as in the sg. He had (I believe) just a pulse circuit like the SG that was very efficient and used that with a flywheel as the prime mover and a generator section of "low drag" coils. From what I have read in this post it appears that what is being tested are the variables for the generator side only. If you know what the best setup is for generation... what gap, magnet configuration, type of magnets ect can produce the best output for a given input, frequency, ect....then from that you can figure out the best setup would be. For instance to many magnets on a wheel cause there to be interference and no "complete off time" in the coils because as one magnet leaves another approaches. So in theory with all the data you can decide what configuration will give you the most out with the least in. From there move on to the prime mover and test multiple configurations against the known best generator configuration.
    Hi Bradley Malone,
    I suggest one to read the SG Advanced Hand book to get an overview and insight into the various intercasies of MOTORING...GENERATORING...ENERGISERING..and the corresponding switching methods employed for each of the functions.
    Its like you have Speed gain in the SG and Torque gain in the 1984 machine but not both at the same time!
    Have you explored combining the 1984 and 2000SG all in one!!
    just my few cents and food for thought
    Best Regards,
    Faraday88.
    Last edited by Faraday88; 03-06-2018 at 06:52 AM. Reason: correction in spell
    'The Magnetic Field is the gatekeeper of the Wheather on the Earth'' - John Bedini.

  10. #50
    Faraday. Yes the advanced book is great. But I always keep an open mind about the fact that anybody can be wrong. Even bedini could have missed something that could have added to his design to do something different or more output etc... So when it comes to testing why not try anything and just see. Experience is the best teacher.

    I actually do a great deal of testing but struggle with extreme ADHD so writing up information into a readable format that can help someone is just not a strong suit. I am however working on a microcontroller circuit for switching motors generators or coil shorting, really anything
    precisely with mechanical relays because of the benefits from a solid make/ break connection instead if trying to use a thousand different transistors to find the best one. The controller is being set up to measure rpm while sensing exact position of rotor magnets with many variables so I can connect or disconnect anything at any point I want. When I get it finished debuged and tested I was planning on offering the code on here or even a complete unit with relay module so people can just get it hook it up and experiment with any timing scenario they would want.
    Last edited by Bradley Malone; 03-06-2018 at 10:50 AM.

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