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Thread: Peter Lindemann Rotary Attraction Motor

  1. #11
    Solavei
    Hi Gary,
    After referring to your drawing in post #5 my first wild guess is that you are picking up ringing off the batteries. Less likely would be an interaction between coils either electrically or fields. Last possible is you are developing capacitance some where in your circuit possibly in the windings.

    It might be helpful to know the exact points you were probing for each display, but honestly probably wouldn't change my guesses.

    I am not really much help just throwing some guesses out there.

    I believe the triangular diagram you showed is supposed to be a representation of total input current vs total output current as a relationship and not necessarily what you would see on a scope even with a current probe.

    Michael
    Last edited by Michael Luton; 04-17-2017 at 09:24 PM. Reason: typing error

  2. #12
    Hi Michael,

    Thanks for the response. The scope probe was attached to the junction of the FET drain with the coil and diode. The probe ground lead was attached to the other end of the coil at the junction with the primary battery positive lead and secondary battery negative lead. I also got the same overall wave form with the scope ground lead hooked to the primary battery negative lead (which shows the voltage across the FET).

    I then removed the ammeter from the negative input lead as this reduces the slight ringing after the spike on my SSG. The only affect that had on this motor was to increase the free running RPM a little. And I noticed that when loading the motor down, the amplitude of the ringing increased but the frequency remained the same. I was able to measure this frequency at between 4.35 MZ and 4.55 MZ depending on how I had the scope set. It does reduce in both amplitude and frequency the farther past the spike it gets in time until it is mostly damped out. Then a much lower frequency sine wave appears on the scope trace which appears to be a harmonic of the pulse frequency of the motor.

    On my SSG, a sniffer coil positioned close to any of the battery leads shows each current pulse to consist of an 833 KZ diminishing sine wave. I haven't checked that with this motor but suspect it would show the same thing. This is the same on all my SSG's, and I think it must be the resonant frequency of the batteries.

    I'm guessing that the SSG greatly dampens the ringing in the run coil due to being multifilar wound and having a trigger winding that absorbs some energy and shunts some of it to ground thru the diode across the base emitter junction. This motor doesn't have any of that to dampen the high frequency ringing, which I assume must be due to the natural frequency of the coils - i.e. inductance and capacitance.

    Like you, I'm just guessing at what I'm seeing on the scope. My biggest surprise was how closely it resembles the overall wave form of the SSG when there are no interacting magnetic fields (no rotating magnets) and a single filar coil with no trigger winding!

    Now I need to get working on a small dyno to measure the mechanical output and then fabricate a small no-BEMF generator for a load!
    Last edited by Gary Hammond; 04-18-2017 at 11:48 AM. Reason: correct typo
    Gary Hammond,

  3. #13
    Hi All,

    I ran the negative secondary battery lead through my sniffer coil today, and the scope does indeed show the charge pulses resonating at 833 KZ just as I thought it might! This must be the battery resonant frequency affecting the charge pulse.

    I was also able to measure the time period of the slower sine wave that can be seen riding on the back of the main wave after the spike. It is the sixth harmonic of the pulse rate thru the FET. I assume maybe this is caused by the resonance of the entire primary circuit?

    That leaves the short 4.55 MZ damped ringing after the spike. I assume this could be the resonant frequency of the coil itself every time it is pulsed?

    So I have four different frequencies showing up on the scope. The fundamental pulse from the timing wheel plus three more frequencies resulting from it's interaction with the various circuit elements.

    The next step is to machine a new timing wheel with a 12" circumference. I just ordered some spring scales so I can measure torque and calculate the mechanical horsepower output. With fully charged batteries it got up to a no load speed of 6250 RPM this afternoon. That's getting pretty close to it's original design speed of 7000 RPM!

    Any and all comments, suggestions, or observations are welcome!
    Gary Hammond,

  4. #14
    You might be picking up the zener diode ringing in the fet?

  5. #15
    Hi All,

    Did a little more experimenting with it today by drawing a load on the charge battery while the motor was running. A 100ma LED strip allows the charge battery to still charge, and has no effect on either the current draw from the primary or RPM of the motor. And a 200ma LED load causes the voltage on the charge battery to go down very slowly with, again, no effect on the speed or current draw.

    So the motor can deliver somewhere between 100 ma and 200 ma to a load hooked to the charge battery while still maintaining the voltage in the charge battery. This is similar to an automotive charging system except that it does it without slowing down the motor or adding any current draw from the run battery. I think this is pretty cool behavior.
    Gary Hammond,

  6. #16
    Member Ed_Morbus's Avatar
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    Gary is it possible to make close-up from your setup especially the engine / motor and how you wired all

  7. #17
    Hi ED,

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed_Morbus View Post
    Gary is it possible to make close-up from your setup especially the engine / motor and how you wired all
    Look in posts 5 and 6 of this thread for close ups and wiring schematic. It's still the same. All I added was LED strips hooked to the secondary battery for an electrical load while it was charging.
    Gary Hammond,

  8. #18
    Member Ed_Morbus's Avatar
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    Gary what I do not understand what you have done with the motor inside
    Last edited by Ed_Morbus; 04-20-2017 at 03:43 AM.

  9. #19
    Hi Ed,

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed_Morbus View Post
    Gary what I do not understand what you have done with the motor inside


    If you look at this photo (from post #1 of this thread) you can see two stator windings, one on each of the salient pole projections. There are four wires coming out the side of the motor case that are connected to the ends of each coil. This allows the two coils to be either connected together in series or in parallel. They can also be connected with bucking fields or complimentary fields. I have them connected in series with the north pole of one facing the south pole of the other - a complimentary arrangement. This is the normal arrangement for this motor.

    You can also see in this photo that the brushes are removed, the rotor is shaved, and the brush connecting wires are cut off right at the brush holders and removed. There are only four remaining wires exiting the case. Two are fastened together making the two coils in series (acts like a single coil), and the other two wires become the ends of the resulting "single" coil. One end is fastened to the primary battery positive, and the other end is fastened to the drain of the FET. All connections and circuitry are outside of the case with the exception of the coils themselves.

    In the next photo (from post #5 of this thread) you can see the blue wire and white wire both connected together near the center of the terminal strip. This is the series connection that turns the two coils effectively into a single coil.

    The yellow wire is one end of the resulting single coil and is fastened to the FET drain across the terminal strip. The other end of the resulting coil is the red wire (looks brown in the photo) at the top end of the terminal strip that is fastened to the primary battery positive and secondary battery negative.



    The wiring schematic in the next photo is also from post #5. All the arrow symbols in the drawing designate connections to the primary battery positive and all the ground symbols designate connections to the primary battery negative.

    Last edited by Gary Hammond; 04-20-2017 at 11:37 AM.
    Gary Hammond,

  10. #20
    Member Ed_Morbus's Avatar
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    Solavei
    Thanks Gary

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