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Thread: Bedini SG Monopole with Capacitor Discharge

  1. #11
    Hi bluestix,

    My knowledge of electronics is pretty minimal, but let me see what I can do. In an ssg circuit both sides are connected electrically, which is not the case with this circuit. That's the beauty of the opto; it can connect the 2 circuits so the one can affect the other, but it doesn't use an electrical connection between the 2 circuits. The danger with the ssg is that if the charging battery gets disconnected, then when the field collapses the spike can't get to the charging battery so the voltage builds up, and since there is a circuit to the primary battery through the transistor, the voltage will build up enough to punch through the transistor to get to the primary.

    So with this circuit if the charging battery gets disconnected it doesn't really change anything on the primary side, at least as far as I can tell, since they are not electrically connected. I think if the secondary is disconnected the timer will continue to fire the opto like normal, but without a closed circuit to the charging battery nothing will happen on the charging side. And of course if a clip comes off the primary then the machine just stops, so no danger there.

    Robert
    Last edited by Robert Darrah; 11-25-2012 at 07:58 PM.

  2. #12
    Senior Member Tom C's Avatar
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    you will have better luck building solid state SG then trying to replicate the full monopole patent in solid state. I have seen 8 filar solid state models. with cap dump and bridge. how would you change the SG to run a bridge on the output?

    Tom C


    experimental Kits, chargers and solar trackers

  3. #13
    Hi TomC

    What is a "Full mono pole"?

    Why do you need to rectify the output to the cap, the cap can be charged directly?

    More info please !

    Theunis
    Last edited by Prinsloo; 11-25-2012 at 11:48 PM.

  4. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom C View Post
    you will have better luck building solid state SG then trying to replicate the full monopole patent in solid state. I have seen 8 filar solid state models. with cap dump and bridge. how would you change the SG to run a bridge on the output?

    Tom C
    I still don't see how the primary coil on the SG is any different then the primary coils on an SSG. If a spike forms in the primary coil of an SSG circuit then the spike has to be discharged to a battery to prevent damage to the neon and transistor.

    What is different about the primary of the SG that it isn't at risk of damage from the spike? Is it dissipated through the secondary?

    I am going to build an 8 filar solid state with cap dump. I already have an 8 filar coil running with an 8 circuit SSG board. It works pretty well.

    I am wondering how to modify it to include cap dump.

    Can I put a bridge rectifier in place of the secondary battery?

    I was thinking about only using four of the coils as power coils and hooking the other four up to the bridge rectifier like in the SG circuit posted in this thread. What about the power coils though? They still need to be connected to a secondary of some kind right?

  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Darrah View Post
    Hi bluestix,

    In an ssg circuit both sides are connected electrically, which is not the case with this circuit. That's the beauty of the opto; it can connect the 2 circuits so the one can affect the other, but it doesn't use an electrical connection between the 2 circuits. The danger with the ssg is that if the charging battery gets disconnected, then when the field collapses the spike can't get to the charging battery so the voltage builds up, and since there is a circuit to the primary battery through the transistor, the voltage will build up enough to punch through the transistor to get to the primary.

    Robert
    In the posted diagram I am not concerned with any of the secondary charging circuit. Only the primary coil and transistor connected to the primary battery. In an SSG circuit this would be the coil developing the spike and routing it to a secondary battery. I don't understand what is different about the primary coil of the SG circuit. Does it not develop a spike?

  6. #16
    Senior Member Tom C's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluestix View Post
    I still don't see how the primary coil on the SG is any different then the primary coils on an SSG. If a spike forms in the primary coil of an SSG circuit then the spike has to be discharged to a battery to prevent damage to the neon and transistor.

    What is different about the primary of the SG that it isn't at risk of damage from the spike? Is it dissipated through the secondary?

    I am going to build an 8 filar solid state with cap dump. I already have an 8 filar coil running with an 8 circuit SSG board. It works pretty well.

    I am wondering how to modify it to include cap dump.

    Can I put a bridge rectifier in place of the secondary battery?

    I was thinking about only using four of the coils as power coils and hooking the other four up to the bridge rectifier like in the SG circuit posted in this thread. What about the power coils though? They still need to be connected to a secondary of some kind right?
    1- The full patent monopole is not the Schoolgirl circuit. John had to break the machine into parts so it would pass the patent office. It is the charging "process" what the machine does with the coil that is important. longitudinal pulses
    2- you want the spike, you want it to go everywhere, that is the important part of this technology. the spike contains the radiant. that is why we dont use power supplies on the front end, it kills them.
    3- Bridge rectifier to the cap, dump to the battery
    4- Yes the power coils need to be hooked up.

    Tom C


    experimental Kits, chargers and solar trackers

  7. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom C View Post
    1- The full patent monopole is not the Schoolgirl circuit. John had to break the machine into parts so it would pass the patent office. It is the charging "process" what the machine does with the coil that is important. longitudinal pulses
    2- you want the spike, you want it to go everywhere, that is the important part of this technology. the spike contains the radiant. that is why we dont use power supplies on the front end, it kills them.
    3- Bridge rectifier to the cap, dump to the battery
    4- Yes the power coils need to be hooked up.

    Tom C
    I don't think you are understanding what I am asking.

    The circuit posted in the beginning of this thread shows two main coils. The primary and the secondary.

    The primary coil is connected to the primary battery and the primary transistor. Exactly the same as it would be in an SSG circuit. The only difference I can see is that in this circuit there is no diode attached to the primary coil directed to a secondary battery and there is no neon light to give warning when the second battery is not connected.

    My question is... does a spike form in the primary coil? If yes then what prevents the spike in the primary coil from damaging the primary transistor?

    I am pretty sure I don't want the spike to 'go everywhere'. Only to a cap bank or battery. If it goes to the transistors then as I understand it they will stop working. I am asking this question repeatedly because I am going to modify a circuit that I already have working and I don't want to blow any of the transistors.

    Another question... when I hookup secondary coils do they each have to be connected to their own bridge rectifier? Or can they all be connected to the same one?


    Also, I have used a power supply in place of the primary battery on the SSG circuit and it works fine. It charges the battery. It does change the wave form on the oscope though. Still shows the spike but the 'h' wave shape is different.
    Last edited by bluestix; 11-26-2012 at 03:08 PM.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Tom C's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluestix View Post
    I don't think you are understanding what I am asking.

    The circuit posted in the beginning of this thread shows two main coils. The primary and the secondary.

    The primary coil is connected to the primary battery and the primary transistor. Exactly the same as it would be in an SSG circuit. The only difference I can see is that in this circuit there is no diode attached to the primary coil directed to a secondary battery and there is no neon light to give warning when the second battery is not connected.

    My question is... does a spike form in the primary coil? If yes then what prevents the spike in the primary coil from damaging the primary transistor?

    I am pretty sure I don't want the spike to 'go everywhere'. Only to a cap bank or battery. If it goes to the transistors then as I understand it they will stop working. I am asking this question repeatedly because I am going to modify a circuit that I already have working and I don't want to blow any of the transistors.

    Another question... when I hookup secondary coils do they each have to be connected to their own bridge rectifier? Or can they all be connected to the same one?


    Also, I have used a power supply in place of the primary battery on the SSG circuit and it works fine. It charges the battery. It does change the wave form on the oscope though. Still shows the spike but the 'h' wave shape is different.
    1- the collapse of the primary is absorbed by the secondary. any Back emf from the coil will go to ground. look at the line after S1 on the primary wire. the circuit works as built, all needed protections for the parts are built in.

    2- the radiant goes to the primary battery and to the secondary battery. its in the spike. you do want it to go both ways it charges the primary battery, increasing run time.

    3- they can go either way.

    4- you CAN use a power supply, it MAY work. that is not the point of the monopole, the point is to charge more on the output than on the input. I will not ever recommend a power supply on the primary, ever except maybe to see if the circuit works. you will not know how well it is really charging if you have unlimited power on the front end. part of the tuning is to get more out from the front. to charge 2 3 or 4 batteries for 1.

    Tom C


    experimental Kits, chargers and solar trackers

  9. #19
    Hi,

    I had popped the opto out the other day to see how high the cap would charge and it didn't fry anything, so I thought I'd use the scope to see what was happening in the primary if I disconnected the charging battery. I hooked up a 560 uf cap in parallel to slow the charging down so if things got out of hand I would have more time to deal with it.

    I started with the 560 cap in parallel but everything else as per the schematic and here's a scope shot of the BD243c transistor with the probe on the collector and ground on the emitter:

    normal with 560 cap.jpg

    This is at 50 volts per division, so it's running around 40 volts. I put the multimeter on the cap and it would fluctuate between 15.6 and 16.8 volts.

    So I took a lead off the charging battery to see what would happen in the primary. The cap charged to around 140 volts and stopped, so that seems the max that this setup will go. With the cap charged to around 135 volts I took this shot with the scope still on the primary transistor to see what was happening:

    Ch disc with 560 cap.jpg

    Again it's at 50 volts per division and as you can see it's now spiking around 150 volts, plus or minus. With the battery disconnected and nowhere to dump the cap, the voltage in the secondary increased and wasn't able to dampen the spike from the primary as well as previously. I didn't run it like this for more than a minute or two, but the transistor didn't seem to get abnormally hot in that time.

    My 2 cents only, but if the neons are made to light at 90 volts, then if a lead comes off the secondary it might not be a bad idea to have one to protect the base transistor. I don't know how long the transistor will last if it's being hit with 150 volt spikes, but with a neon to protect it the neon will light up and buy you more time.

    Plus it will let you know something's wrong and the cap isn't dumping like it should, when you might not otherwise notice. You could have a problem with the timer or the opto and the cap wouldn't be dumping, so it would charge to 140 volts and the wheel would be running and everything seems fine, so unless you had a meter or scoped hooked up you might not even know it had a problem. But if the neon is there it will let you know right away and maybe save some parts and aggravation.

    Robert

  10. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by John_Koorn View Post
    Here is the circuit of the Bedini SSG Monopole with Capacitor Discharge.
    Attachment 15
    Hi John K.
    Can you tell me please how this circuit looks when i have a 8 filiar coil?
    Thanks

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