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Thread: Which battery to choose next?

  1. #1

    Which battery to choose next?

    Dear Community,

    We are planning to purchase brand new, matched batteries in order to continue our experiments. Please provide us some support

    Main characteristics of our machine:
    - It is an SG model based on the Beginner/Intermediate/Advanced handbook
    - 24 magnets, wheel 20"
    - Caps: total of 60.000uF
    - Cap discharge setup: 18-24V (programmable)
    - Cap timing switch: FET
    - The Coil was bought from TeslagenX (7+1 wires)
    - All other parts are self made, the handbook was strictly followed
    - Her name is Sigourney (picture attached)

    We have been experimenting with SG mode, although Generator mode is also implemented. Results:
    - Optimizations happened (fine tuned base resistor, coil/magnet distance)
    - We run the machine on 12V
    - Input current: 1,3-1,4 A
    - RPM: average is 292 (note the number if magnets)

    Other:
    - We developed a standard battery discharge method
    - From now on we can collect almost every performance counter from the machine (RPM, input/output V, discharge freq, etc.)

    About our issue, in which we need support:
    We plan to continue the experiments with C20 rate battery setup, and plan to use the following batteries:
    - Input: 2 pieces of 18Ah 12V gel batteries in paralel
    - Output: 2 pieces of 18Ah 12V gel batteries in paralel
    (these batteries are cost effective here)

    Our questions:
    - Primarily: do you think the planned batteries are optimal for the next research phase? If not, would you suggest an alternative approach?
    - Can you suggest experiments to continue with?
    - Can you suggest a method for fine tuning the cap discharge limits?
    - plus 1: is there any obvious (not for us ) improvements we should make next?

    Of course, we'd like to achieve encouraging results By the way, English is not our mother language and we can hardly get parts from U.S., basically only from Europe. But we are creative

    Thanks in advance,
    Zol

    SiG.jpg

  2. #2
    I've been looking at golf cart batteries, 6 volt units at about 220 Amp hours.

    This is the time of year to buy them, I've heard, as they are on sale now.

    Also, I was told to buy the cheapest ones that can be found at an Amp Hour rating since an amp hour is an amp hour, and they will all have the same amount of lead.

    Don't take this as 'gospel', as I may have been given bad advice.

    Good luck!,

    glenWV

  3. #3
    Hi GlenWV,

    thanks for you reply, I appreciate it. But...isn't it an overkill? You know, we are at experimenting phase, we aim to learn about the phenomenon before we start to think big. And 220Ah is...relatively big Still, I may be completely wrong about it.

    Zol

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Zol View Post
    Dear Community,

    We are planning to purchase brand new, matched batteries in order to continue our experiments. Please provide us some support

    Main characteristics of our machine:
    - It is an SG model based on the Beginner/Intermediate/Advanced handbook
    - 24 magnets, wheel 20"
    - Caps: total of 60.000uF
    - Cap discharge setup: 18-24V (programmable)
    - Cap timing switch: FET
    - The Coil was bought from TeslagenX (7+1 wires)
    - All other parts are self made, the handbook was strictly followed
    - Her name is Sigourney (picture attached)

    We have been experimenting with SG mode, although Generator mode is also implemented. Results:
    - Optimizations happened (fine tuned base resistor, coil/magnet distance)
    - We run the machine on 12V
    - Input current: 1,3-1,4 A
    - RPM: average is 292 (note the number if magnets)

    Other:
    - We developed a standard battery discharge method
    - From now on we can collect almost every performance counter from the machine (RPM, input/output V, discharge freq, etc.)

    About our issue, in which we need support:
    We plan to continue the experiments with C20 rate battery setup, and plan to use the following batteries:
    - Input: 2 pieces of 18Ah 12V gel batteries in paralel
    - Output: 2 pieces of 18Ah 12V gel batteries in paralel
    (these batteries are cost effective here)

    Our questions:
    - Primarily: do you think the planned batteries are optimal for the next research phase? If not, would you suggest an alternative approach?
    - Can you suggest experiments to continue with?
    - Can you suggest a method for fine tuning the cap discharge limits?
    - plus 1: is there any obvious (not for us ) improvements we should make next?

    Of course, we'd like to achieve encouraging results By the way, English is not our mother language and we can hardly get parts from U.S., basically only from Europe. But we are creative

    Thanks in advance,
    Zol

    SiG.jpg
    DO not use GEL cells.

    They are even worse than AGM's which are also not the best idea. The problem is that the electrolyte cannot be replaced in a gel cell. If you are doing your charging how most novice experimenters are encouraged to do you will be bringing your charge up to 15.2 to 15.8 volts. The battery will begin to off-gas at about 14.8 volts so you will by default be loosing electrolyte in the process. If you use gel cells or AGM's you will eventually have a dries up useless battery.

    With AGM's you can open them and add distilled water but they are not designed to do this. I have personally run many AGM's and did so for years but eventually you will have to service them and that means cracking open the top with a screwdriver and adding electrolyte, and once you start doing this you will have to do it often because of the low volume of space. Basically you will be treating the AGM as if it were a flooded battery at this point so why not just start with a flooded battery that is designed to be serviced in the first place.

    Now true GEL cells are even worse because you cannot just add water to them, they are gel filled. They also have a habit of developing bubbles in the gel and all around the plates which results in a loss of effective plate surface area, the electrolyte is not touching the plate in these bubbles area's which reduces capacity and current available.

    I strongly caution you against gel cells or AGM's. Get yourself some wet cell batteries.

    What is the current draw of your machine? IN other words to achive a C20 what size battery do you think you may need. You could probably get by with two boat batteries (deep cell) which are used for trolling motors. You could also get by with garden tractor batteries , four of them as you proposed for the gel, two in parallel on front and two on back.

    *EDIT*
    Ok I see that you did list your amp draw, sorry I missed that. So a garden battery is about a half amp at C20, two would still be a little weak if your running over an amp. I would go for deep cell trolling batteries, This type is usually a group 27 or 29 case and they will have a typical lead post and a threaded bolt post which is used for attaching eyelet connectors for trolling motors.

    Here is an example:
    https://www.walmart.com/ip/EverStart...ttery/20531539
    Last edited by BobZilla; 02-16-2017 at 04:46 PM.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Faraday88's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobZilla View Post
    DO not use GEL cells.

    They are even worse than AGM's which are also not the best idea. The problem is that the electrolyte cannot be replaced in a gel cell. If you are doing your charging how most novice experimenters are encouraged to do you will be bringing your charge up to 15.2 to 15.8 volts. The battery will begin to off-gas at about 14.8 volts so you will by default be loosing electrolyte in the process. If you use gel cells or AGM's you will eventually have a dries up useless battery.

    With AGM's you can open them and add distilled water but they are not designed to do this. I have personally run many AGM's and did so for years but eventually you will have to service them and that means cracking open the top with a screwdriver and adding electrolyte, and once you start doing this you will have to do it often because of the low volume of space. Basically you will be treating the AGM as if it were a flooded battery at this point so why not just start with a flooded battery that is designed to be serviced in the first place.

    Now true GEL cells are even worse because you cannot just add water to them, they are gel filled. They also have a habit of developing bubbles in the gel and all around the plates which results in a loss of effective plate surface area, the electrolyte is not touching the plate in these bubbles area's which reduces capacity and current available.

    I strongly caution you against gel cells or AGM's. Get yourself some wet cell batteries.

    What is the current draw of your machine? IN other words to achive a C20 what size battery do you think you may need. You could probably get by with two boat batteries (deep cell) which are used for trolling motors. You could also get by with garden tractor batteries , four of them as you proposed for the gel, two in parallel on front and two on back.

    *EDIT*
    Ok I see that you did list your amp draw, sorry I missed that. So a garden battery is about a half amp at C20, two would still be a little weak if your running over an amp. I would go for deep cell trolling batteries, This type is usually a group 27 or 29 case and they will have a typical lead post and a threaded bolt post which is used for attaching eyelet connectors for trolling motors.

    Here is an example:
    https://www.walmart.com/ip/EverStart...ttery/20531539
    Hi ,
    There is a remeady for this problem with any type of Lead acid Batteries.. especially the AGMs, Gel filled or what they call it as the VRLA .
    The loss of Water in Batteries is due to the Electrolysis of Water that takes place in preferential order(Pb has a lower Electropositivity in the Electrochemical series) after the Çharged-state of its plates with Pb202 at Anode and Sponge metal Pb at Cathode. The batteries can be made to work like a Fuel Cell that is, the electrolysed Water if does not escape the Battery container can be made to recombine(it builds its own pressure) with the sulphuric acid to give dilute Sulphuric acid and Electricity back at the Electrodes. and with Potential Charging/ or Bedini process this is even more effieicent, but real challange is to make the battery container fully leak proof. this way even the flooded types can be consealed permenantely.. I have done this with the VRLA battery.
    Rgds,
    Faraday88.
    ‘Mass is the Spatial density of Matter (Particle) and the Temporal Intensity of Space (Field)’.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Faraday88 View Post
    Hi ,
    There is a remeady for this problem with any type of Lead acid Batteries.. especially the AGMs, Gel filled or what they call it as the VRLA .
    The loss of Water in Batteries is due to the Electrolysis of Water that takes place in preferential order(Pb has a lower Electropositivity in the Electrochemical series) after the Çharged-state of its plates with Pb202 at Anode and Sponge metal Pb at Cathode. The batteries can be made to work like a Fuel Cell that is, the electrolysed Water if does not escape the Battery container can be made to recombine(it builds its own pressure) with the sulphuric acid to give dilute Sulphuric acid and Electricity back at the Electrodes. and with Potential Charging/ or Bedini process this is even more effieicent, but real challange is to make the battery container fully leak proof. this way even the flooded types can be consealed permenantely.. I have done this with the VRLA battery.
    Rgds,
    Faraday88.
    Faraday I do not disagree with you but you are missing two points here. We are giving advice to a guy who knows very little about batteries so my prescription to him is for someone at his level of understanding,, wouldn't you agree that a flooded cell is best for such a situation?

    Second point is that as I said most novice players are going to want to push up too 15+ volts which is past the gassing phase and will build a lot of pressure if you were to try and completely seal it. The AGM's are already designed to work exactly as you described, that was the whole point of sealed maintenance free batteries BUT average citizens are using charger that cut off at 14.5 - 14.8, exactly where the gassing BEGINS. It works ok for that kind of use but we habitually take them well into the vigorous gassing phase which will drastically amplify the problem. There are ways around it but this guy is asking what kind of battery he should use, a simple question with a simple solution.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Faraday88's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobZilla View Post
    Faraday I do not disagree with you but you are missing two points here. We are giving advice to a guy who knows very little about batteries so my prescription to him is for someone at his level of understanding,, wouldn't you agree that a flooded cell is best for such a situation?

    Second point is that as I said most novice players are going to want to push up too 15+ volts which is past the gassing phase and will build a lot of pressure if you were to try and completely seal it. The AGM's are already designed to work exactly as you described, that was the whole point of sealed maintenance free batteries BUT average citizens are using charger that cut off at 14.5 - 14.8, exactly where the gassing BEGINS. It works ok for that kind of use but we habitually take them well into the vigorous gassing phase which will drastically amplify the problem. There are ways around it but this guy is asking what kind of battery he should use, a simple question with a simple solution.
    Ok..very well bob...you are right!!
    Rgds,
    Faraday88.
    ‘Mass is the Spatial density of Matter (Particle) and the Temporal Intensity of Space (Field)’.

  8. #8
    Dear All,
    First of all: thank you very much! The C20 'rule' led us to some confusion. Originally, we calculated like the following. Input current is 1.4A. We need this for 20 hours, which means a capacity of 28Ah. As I read at this forum, it is only the 80% of the suggested capacity, which means a 35Ah. That's why we thought that smaller batteries may be used. Where do we miss the point? Why do you propose bigger batteries? Maybe because the smallest available deep cycle/lead acid/low maintenance(?) batteries have capacity around 80Ah?
    We started doing the homework and we have been searching for suitable batteries and learning a lot about AGM/VRLA, etc. I will post the characteristics before we buy them.
    Another related question. It is not completely clear for me if we should avoid gassing or not?

  9. #9
    Senior Member Faraday88's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zol View Post
    Dear All,
    First of all: thank you very much! The C20 'rule' led us to some confusion. Originally, we calculated like the following. Input current is 1.4A. We need this for 20 hours, which means a capacity of 28Ah. As I read at this forum, it is only the 80% of the suggested capacity, which means a 35Ah. That's why we thought that smaller batteries may be used. Where do we miss the point? Why do you propose bigger batteries? Maybe because the smallest available deep cycle/lead acid/low maintenance(?) batteries have capacity around 80Ah?
    We started doing the homework and we have been searching for suitable batteries and learning a lot about AGM/VRLA, etc. I will post the characteristics before we buy them.
    Another related question. It is not completely clear for me if we should avoid gassing or not?
    Hi Zol,
    The C20 rate is for the Discharge and not for the Charge rate, as per John Bedini, this is the safe rate at which the full potential of the gain manifests it self, you discharge another battery that is conventionally charged will not give you back up longer than what a Bedini process would do.. that is the testimony to this technology.
    Yes, bigger batteries because the Effect is more pronounced as the AH increases.
    the Off gasing starts at around 14.56V and this is the ''Finish Phase'' for the charging, this is where the battery is fully charged you may cut-off at this point to stop the charging.
    Rgds,
    Faraday88.
    ‘Mass is the Spatial density of Matter (Particle) and the Temporal Intensity of Space (Field)’.

  10. #10
    Zol,
    I understand your confusion and in all the Bedini forums I have seen the batteries are the poorest covered component. Probably because it is a very complicated issue. I do not consider myself an expert, but will try to share what I understand so take what I say with a grain of salt. It is difficult to address the whole issue without going into several pages of explanation, so forgive my trying to highlight the situation.

    First understand that at there is no such thing as a perfect battery so we are dealing with a trade off in benefits. Second in an earlier post you mentioned problems of availability in your area. Third regardless of where you think you are going with this you are now in a learning and experimental phase. With those considerations in mind, go with what you have available with the understanding that it will have to be replaced with a shorter lifespan than normal due to your learning curve and the next set of batteries can be better judged by you. With that out of the way I will try to help your understanding of batteries a little.

    Off-gassing and sulfation are issues that are problems to us that come from the natural chemical process inside a lead acid battery. Whenever you charge a battery you try to some extent to minimize the effect by charging at a low enough rate that the hydrogen and oxygen stay in suspension in the acid as much as possible and not create bubbles. The sulfation builds up on the plates when a battery discharges and is removed during the charging process. Any sulfation that is not removed during charging will over time will change form so that it is harder to remove. That is the very, very simple explanation of what goes on in a battery.

    Now with the basics understood as you complete the charge it gets more complicated. To completely charge a battery you need to completely remove all the sulfation or it gradually builds up and becomes a devolving process. At the same time the closer you get to a full charge the rate of off-gassing increases. Also the closer to full charge the charging process becomes less efficient regardless of the charging method used. This forces us to try to find a somewhat satisfying middle point. This has to be understood to decipher what people are recommending to you.

    The serviceable flooded lead acid batteries you can simply add distilled water to make up losses due to off-gassing as the bubbles rise to the top and are lost to the atmosphere. This allows us a faster rate of charge and a more complete charge as the off-gassing is not a big issue in the battery. It can be a fire hazard if the battery is in a confined space.

    The AGM and Gel type batteries do not allow bubbles from off-gassing to escape due to their internal structure. Therefore they have to be charged at a lower rate to keep bubbles from forming as that reduces the available plate area to the electrolyte wherever they occur. You also can not completely charge the battery completely due to the bubble issue to completely remove all the sulfation so over time that also builds reducing plate area and therefore capacity, so it can only be charged to a lower voltage.

    The C-20 rate has some leeway as far as charging goes with closer adherence needed for the AGM and Gel types due to the off-gassing issues. However I recommend trying not to exceed the C-20 when discharging until you better understand the batteries you are working with and are comfortable with it.

    To further complicate the battery issue there are three basic designs of batteries starter, back up, and deep cycle with steps in between. Starter batteries are for periodic fast use and fast recharge. Back up batteries are for very occasional use and recharge. Deep cycle are for near continuous use and periodic recharge over a long time. For our purposes the deep cycle is best as it is designed for for continuous use and recharge with a deeper discharge on a regular basis.

    With all that said going to the smaller amp hour battery shows faster and possibly more conclusive results for your experiments and allows a smaller charger. A larger battery requires more time to charge and after a point in size a smaller unit will not even charge it. Given all those considerations with the unit you reported building I believe the 37 amp hour battery you mentioned would be a good choice to start with. I hope I have not confused you more and I hope I helped you understand what others are trying to say to you. Good luck with your progress.

    Michael

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