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Thread: Water Spark To Water Vapor Pressure

  1. #1

    Water Spark To Water Vapor Pressure

    Reference to 2005-2008 S1R9A9M9 web site Yahoo groups Waterfuel1978 forum + You tube videos S1R9A9M9 1+2. El Camino Car and 18HP Briggs lawnmower engines ran on water . Well known phenomena of amplified spark expands water to 1000 times as water vapor pressure. The unusual choking magnetic coils for ignition high voltage line allows for extended time of spark so as still sparking to after top dead center timing. Negative late timing needed for water useage . The other capacitor discharge method is too fast for proper operation, which is why Georgia man used wire coils . The videos were done with direct connection method to plug, without any High volts safety precautions to battery. Induction method would have been better. Hear Briggs engine sound like water pump! Initial power from battery, idling mode amps + voltage from on board improved ring alternator. (Battery disconnected)
    Last edited by russwr; 01-28-2017 at 10:31 AM.

  2. #2
    Networking Architect Aaron Murakami's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by russwr View Post
    Reference to 2005-2008 S1R9A9M9 web site Yahoo groups Waterfuel1978 forum + You tube videos S1R9A9M9 1+2. El Camino Car and 18HP Briggs lawnmower engines ran on water . Well known phenomena of amplified spark expands water to 1000 times as water vapor pressure. The unusual choking magnetic coils for ignition high voltage line allows for extended time of spark so as still sparking to after top dead center timing. Negative late timing needed for water useage . The other capacitor discharge method is too fast for proper operation, which is why Georgia man used wire coils . The videos were done with direct connection method to plug, without any High volts safety precautions to battery. Induction method would have been better. Hear Briggs engine sound like water pump! Initial power from battery, idling mode amps + voltage from on board improved ring alternator. (Battery disconnected)
    Thanks for sharing that here - a great topic!

    An attempt to figure out what S1R9A9M9's circuit was is what led me to developing my plasma ignition method. If you look at his convoluted diagram he posted that hardly anyone could figure out - it is basically connecting the half rectified out put of an inverter over the spark plug gap - and it was a large appliance relay that made the right connections. When the hv spark is made, the lower voltage high current from that inverter jumps the gap and that is what his ignition is.

    Everyone claimed the inverter was needed to make the effect and some tried with capacitors. Capacitors worked, but they also thought it had to be connected to the inverter still to get the effect. Because of John Bedini's old diagrams of the Gray motor with the reversed diode at the top of the HV rod, I instantly knew all those explanations were false and posted the first evidence ever showing the capacitor could be charged with a power source and be completely disconnected from the power source (free floating potential) and then applied to the ignition coil and it worked. So not only did it prove the connection to the inverter (ac power source) was irrelevant to the effect, it also proved that I could simultaneously use the same capacitor as the input power source to the primary of the ignition coil and also act as the low voltage source that would jump the gap after the hv spark was made.

    I don't know what "other capacitor discharge method" you are talking about that is supposed to be "too fast for proper operation", but my own method is of course extremely fast - but the primary plasma discharge method is basically the same as what S1R was doing wit his circuit.

    That plasma doesn't necessarily expand water, it instantly dissociates the hydrogen from oxygen so that is where the expansion comes from, then the hydrogen detonates very fast and very hot and that is what ignites the rest of the freed hydrogen and further dissociates more hydrogen from water, etc...

    Revizal was the first to use this kind of plasma ignition to run an engine just on water after all these experiments and it was a small motorbike engine. It ran on tap water for maybe 20-30 seconds. But the plasma needs to be pretty big for that to the point it will destroy plugs fast and will explode and chip other pieces of metal it touches - most likely like the edges of valves, etc... So running an engine on water is not a problem if you have a big enough discharge but will simultaneously destroy your plug and engine. I would like to see that S1R engine torn apart and examined to see what the longer term situation is.

    Here is an old "choking" method that I posted years ago from Ralph Bergstresser, a friend of Tesla:



    It can extend the time that the spark is at the gap.

    Do you have a pic or video of the Georgia man's methods?
    Aaron Murakami





    You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete. ― Richard Buckminster Fuller

  3. #3
    Senior Member Faraday88's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron Murakami View Post
    Thanks for sharing that here - a great topic!

    An attempt to figure out what S1R9A9M9's circuit was is what led me to developing my plasma ignition method. If you look at his convoluted diagram he posted that hardly anyone could figure out - it is basically connecting the half rectified out put of an inverter over the spark plug gap - and it was a large appliance relay that made the right connections. When the hv spark is made, the lower voltage high current from that inverter jumps the gap and that is what his ignition is.

    Everyone claimed the inverter was needed to make the effect and some tried with capacitors. Capacitors worked, but they also thought it had to be connected to the inverter still to get the effect. Because of John Bedini's old diagrams of the Gray motor with the reversed diode at the top of the HV rod, I instantly knew all those explanations were false and posted the first evidence ever showing the capacitor could be charged with a power source and be completely disconnected from the power source (free floating potential) and then applied to the ignition coil and it worked. So not only did it prove the connection to the inverter (ac power source) was irrelevant to the effect, it also proved that I could simultaneously use the same capacitor as the input power source to the primary of the ignition coil and also act as the low voltage source that would jump the gap after the hv spark was made.

    I don't know what "other capacitor discharge method" you are talking about that is supposed to be "too fast for proper operation", but my own method is of course extremely fast - but the primary plasma discharge method is basically the same as what S1R was doing wit his circuit.

    That plasma doesn't necessarily expand water, it instantly dissociates the hydrogen from oxygen so that is where the expansion comes from, then the hydrogen detonates very fast and very hot and that is what ignites the rest of the freed hydrogen and further dissociates more hydrogen from water, etc...

    Revizal was the first to use this kind of plasma ignition to run an engine just on water after all these experiments and it was a small motorbike engine. It ran on tap water for maybe 20-30 seconds. But the plasma needs to be pretty big for that to the point it will destroy plugs fast and will explode and chip other pieces of metal it touches - most likely like the edges of valves, etc... So running an engine on water is not a problem if you have a big enough discharge but will simultaneously destroy your plug and engine. I would like to see that S1R engine torn apart and examined to see what the longer term situation is.

    Here is an old "choking" method that I posted years ago from Ralph Bergstresser, a friend of Tesla:



    It can extend the time that the spark is at the gap.

    Do you have a pic or video of the Georgia man's methods?
    Hi Aaron,
    Excellent case study!!! Infact it reminds me of Stan's obscure 'Wiper arm'' Variable Inductance in his VIC circuit
    the Magnetic Interaction in that 'Variability' is actually a Temporally variability rather than Spatial one in the sense of its 'wiper arm'like in variable resitor or rheostat.
    and yes just as you rightly point out, the Ignition System of 1976 was not of CDI origin hence the High-Voltage attend was of Inetrrupter type (Switched Inductor if i may so call it) and this coil Inductor is meant for that type of HV Spike (Parallel Resonant) and not for the Switched Capacitor Discharge type (Series Resonant). i'm sure if one underrstand the Interaction of the coil it can be designed to work just as well with the CDI type may be with the Inclusion of a Capacitor along with it.
    I still belive S1R did use the Alternator along with the Enhanced Capacitor Plasma Ignition system that you describe, it is just that it can be done many ways...he chose to disclose the inverter while still keeping the core stuff with him (Alternator) Sine wave from an Alternator is pure Magneto electric and not susceptable to disrruptive Discharges that initiate Tesla Impulse power surges (Modern Engineers would call it Reactive power Impulse or Transients) but an Inverter is very susceptable...the rough secreat is High-Voltage Sine wave and Low-Voltage 'Square-Wave'' the mix of which gives you the Tesla Impulse..
    be it for Liquid dielectric Polarization or Gaseous/vapour polarization, the Alternator is the key to produce the sine wave High-Voltage for the 'method of conversion'.
    Rgds,
    Faraday88.
    'The Magnetic Field is the gatekeeper of the Wheather on the Earth'' - John Bedini.

  4. #4
    Website reference to 1978 El Camino V8 water vapor conversion:

    Nathren's methodology was called "electromagnet coil" + "Booster coil". The 400 Watt solid state inverter discharged as half wave DC with reverse diodes. The lowered duty cycle usage of spark plug firing allowed much less wattage output. His wording referred to the (8) dual coils sets of electromagnet switching relays. These were new, old stock, for Georgia traffic signal boxes. The DC discharge was THROUGH the inductance of wire coils themselves and through contacts. The inductance affects the on time of plasma spark discharge. Choking effect of coils reduces the overall high voltage with about 6 amps current + superimposed 60 volts and higher , due to diode /coil resonance. Ignition coil high voltage applied to relays bank did not form "spark over shorts" because of the high quality construction of ceramic housing formed sealed in VACUUM. Vacuum is perfect electrical insulation. Traffic relays had to operate in extreme conditions of cold, heat, moisture, all year long. Nathren said the car was driven several thousand miles before locked up in security garage. At some point, the car's water usage was reduced when replacement fuel tank was constructed to catch water drippings from exhaust system. The engine ran much smoother then. He had to call in technicians to figure out that there was NITROGEN embedded water from previous piston compresions. This contributed to spark plug efficiency and higher mileage per gallon along with saving on refills. Air drawn into manifold is about 90% Nitrogen. To get to power mode, past idle speed, the 2 carburetor main jets were redrilled to 300% larger holes for more water flow to intake manifold. The Inverter was needed to provide charging of inductance coils and amperage to plasma discharge. The distributor was readjusted for late timing , about 34 degrees ATDC. The relays were not used as normal click operation with separate power to contacts. Amperage has to be allowed through the plugs. Spark plugs need to be changed to zero ohms resistance. (end to end) Cross reference Non resistor type, - or use comparable Champion with same reach, and you can remove resister under the screw top with torch and pliers. Replace resistor with #12 gauge copper wire piece, then add same small spring and top. Oscilloscope readings have to be monitored so as current spikes are no higher than 6 amps to reduce erosion of metal spark plug electrodes. Plasma sparks instantly reforms water to vapor state under high pressure release. The injected current also allows small percentage of hydrogen gas as contributing factor to engine running. The 1980's work of Dr. Graneau is well documented. I have video copy of his seminar presentation, tv documentary, and tech journal publication of water vapor firings lab tests. Overunity sessions occurred when the duty cycle on time was extended per firings. (pressure energy vs electrical power input)

    Reference to 18 HP Intek Briggs engine 31H777 that ran on water:

    I have studied the S1R9A9M9 2008 You Tube videos 1+2, and Nathren's website data over extended time period. (Yahoo, groups, WaterFuel1978, messages) The covered plastic container on side of engine probably has the S1R coils assy, 2 diodes , parallel condenser, and Mh inductor. If you review the Video 1, and slow to 1/4 speed , you will see the black line from engine cowl going down to can. This is not the black spark plug wire with boot in the covered can. You can actually see 2 separate #18 gauge wires spiral wrapped in black electrical tape. The rubber boot is pushed up under plastic upper cowl with wire end attached. The extension cord from can is not used, as from previous failed testing with inverter. The inverter box on ground has input cables on ground, and not used for videos 1+2. The loose, short wire on plug top was supposed to be used for engine shut off means only. The battery charger on ground supplies the 13 volts DC , because the yellow battery is too poor. "Starting Mode" conversion circuit power is from the battery charger. The assistant applies jumper cable positive to starter terminal. Spinning flywheel runs magneto ignition. The accessory wire probably added to starter terminal goes around backside of engine and under upper cowl to some type of pulser unit such as buzzer vibrator relay. Pulser fires input voltage through contacts to series inductor with condenser / diode combination to raise voltage over 60 volts. The long ago older ignition type with distributor points and condenser was in resonance with primary coil and allowed upward of 300 volts across primary for the transformer turns ratio usage. This is how he did it for the lawnmower engine. Nathren said no capacitor in circuit!-- The older time wording was called "condenser" . He wasn't lying, just a play on words. The increased lower voltage, and amps current is superimposed on the ignition high voltage after passing through the choke magnetic field 5 turns. The 20 turns stainless steel wire is connected to the 5 turn high voltage end , (Direct Connection Method) then to the #12 gauge white wire exiting can to spark plug top terminal. The 7 and 5 turns "electromagnet coil" was for choking effect timing extension and the 20 turns (Booster coil) allows the amperage to pass along to spark plug. Circuit stainless wire resistance was about .2 ohm. He said the spark jumped upward as from positive ground. Starter motor power is then removed. ( battery positive completely disconnected.) Continuous "Idling mode" power comes from either second battery behind engine, or onboard modified stator charger ring alternator. (Nathren said no charger wires pack+ no magnets on flywheel to run it)??? He doesn't want us to know about it??? This model engine NORMALLY has dual wire output coils for riding mower headlight AC and 4 pulse amps DC to battery charging original purpose. The 2 other ends are grounded to casting. By combining both output wires to a Kohler PN voltage regulator with internal full wave rectification, 15 amps is instantly realized available at idle speed, AFTER the starting mode. Riding mower Briggs engines have many interchangeable parts. Three types sizes magnets on flywheels with various arrays of ring charger outputs. They are all identified without engine disassembly by observing cables behind starter motor. Number of wires, color of wires, connector type, connector color tells all as per Briggs alternator chart on internet. Nathren only said he did not hook it up to recharge battery. There is also output shaft pulley power available to use. The manifold vacuum pulls in ambient air, and water through hose from water bottle. Air bubbles into bottle from cap leakage allowing flow of water to carburetor by demand only, not gravity flow. Running engine sounds like water pump in videos 1+2. Carburetor float bowl was disconnected so as no residual gasoline was intended. S1R video #2 set up is the same, with just battery changed, with no battery charger.

    The later time period "Smack" You Tube video with same 18HP Briggs engine was not hooked up same way. Induction mode was used instead of direct connection. Straight DC was applied in attempt to run S1R 20 turns side coil as a transformer. (not possible). The transformer secondary side also had no completed circuit without the missing extra wire and blocking diode. Also the engine had set in the storage garage for a year with moisture. Smack did not do a gasoline test to see if the engine could even run at all. The 18HP engine had rusted stuck valves- no compression, when he was at Nathren's property in Georgia, after 1000 miles trip. This was, at that time, a non running engine. These young mechanical minded guys are not as smart as they think they are, since no compression tester was used after driving all that distance.
    Last edited by russwr; 01-31-2017 at 09:47 AM.

  5. #5

    S1R9A9M9 circuit - updated bench work replication- new techniques applied.

    [QUOTE=russwr;25592]Website reference to earlier 18HP water vapor conversion:


    "Update" to the ongoing electronic project about the water powered lawnmower engine is that it's divided into 6 sections. 1.- Low voltage circuit with 6 amps out. 2.- Modified S1R9A9M9 timing coils assy. 3.- Sparkings section. 4.- on board alternator modification for 20-25 amp DC output. 5.- Diodes bank protection of battery and power supply. 6.- Increased high voltage for spark plug.
    Currently, in spare time , the ignition coil is now being replaced, since mower coils only have 4-10kv. The proposed working circuit needs 24KV. The test set up is Briggs ignition core with the ss conversion module #394970 mounted in available space on core leg, with large rivets facing down when mounted on engine. The magnet passing by on flywheel initiates proper timing . The core coil wires are not used . Only the module clicks to allow grounding of separate 60kv pulsing module. With string high voltage diodes, it is to change the pulsing to high voltage DC of about 25kv. (times .4) That's about the limit for the separate diode bank protection. The battery uses Dc to DC converter for 36v DC capable of 6 A output. 36v divided by 6 ohms total circuit resistance allows passage of 6 amps on DC meter. Diodes form ohms and voltage losses, but are compensated for by higher input voltage. The current used on secondary side causes input draw 3 times higher. The set up under test is on a separate bench (not engine), using fan motor spinning mower magnet and balancing lead washers on wooden flywheel. Briggs coil bracket holds the Briggs core. About 23 types of timing S1Rcoils were built before settling on just one with insulated steel wire. The amperage is to go through the timing coil 20 turns before passing through spark plug. The magnetic field impressed on 5-9 turns of 30kv cable increases the spark time to allow longer contact of spark with water. After TDC , the vacuum effect of piston going down, same time still sparking, was to increase the volume of water vapor pressure along with a minute amount of hydrogen. The other available small engine universal timing modules rely on the primary coil voltage to initiate ignition timing and short the primary coil. Curved stainless knob electrodes for separate spark gap is preset for 8mm gap for 24kv passing through to the final wire coil before spark plug. This was to be POSITIVE high voltage with respect to negative ground. Plug will fire to same as previous spark gap in line. The original 2008 you tube videos of 18HP Briggs engine had 2 relay coils in series with high voltage. After building those coils and getting the meter values of them, they were consolidated into one double coil. The original relay coils are mentioned on 2008 Yahoo web site, Groups, Waterfuel1978. The zero ohms spark plug with water sprayed on it in the open, with higher voltage , and passing 5-7 amps, was to produce large spark noises and be capable of piston compression for running engine. Computer fans blow on diodes tube holder, and S1r coil. The input draw from lawnmower battery is expected to be about 23 amps. Riding mower types with Briggs engine have alternators. Various parts are interchangeable such as flywheels with 3 sizes of drive magnets, and the different amps of coils. The largest has 2 yellow output wires with white connector. The plastic ring could also be rewired with larger gauge magnet wire for more current. A bridge rectifier without voltage regulator would output even higher amps if needed. When later tests come out ok, parts would be transferred to a 12HP Briggs riding lawnmower engine.
    Last edited by russwr; 01-02-2018 at 06:07 PM.

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