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Thread: The mystery of my batteries

  1. #1

    The mystery of my batteries

    Hello everybody:
    First I want to apologize for my English. It is not my usual language.
    I try to write all this in a clear way for everyone who is reading can understand.

    I have some years of reading things in this forum and have also participated a little. Now it is time to experiment a little and I decided to do some tests on the battery charging without condenser or cap pulser. I want to use the basics of circuit SSG.
    It is important for my check I can really see a gradual decrease in the time it takes the battery(s) to be charged to over 15v (in my case about 15-15.10) and gradual increase in the time taken to discharge the battery(s) down to 12v (in my case about 12.35-12.40).
    There are many documents online that talk about battery charging technology that Sr.Bedini has given us. And there are many people working very hard on the forums so that everyone can learn and can draw their own conclusions.
    In many document that I'm talking about, they say something like this ..." You will see a gradual decrease in the time it takes the battery(s) to be charged to over 15V and a gradual increase in the time taken to discharge the battery(s) down to 12V -12.4V under load."
    In my test, right now, I'm getting a different thing and I wonder if I'm on the right track. It is true that my batteries take less time to reach about 15 volts, but I also have seen a gradual decrease in the time taken to discharge the battery(s) down to 12.35-12.40V under load.

    O.k, I will describe my circuit:
    Primary Battery: I'm not using a battery as a primary battery. I use 220V to 12V “wall wart” power supply as the “the input source”. In the circuit input I have 13.32vdc. The circuit runs at 250mA. That rises slightly above the C20, but it is not important because I do not use any battery as primary and I just want to check the second battery conditioning.
    Secondary Battery(s): Completely new. 4Ah YUCELL CB4L-B. The battery is supplied dry, and requires electrolyte packs (acid packs) to fill. After filling the battery must let the battery rest about 24 hours. I loaded these batteries three times with a computerized charger-discharger. The charger-discharger long time it reaches 14.40vdc. The load current has always been 200mA. After I discharge these batteries three times with the same charger-discharger. The discharge current has always been 200mA down to 12.40. I have always respected the C20 rate. 80%(4Ah)=200mA 200mA/C20=160mA
    Coil: One trifilar coil. Is approximately 450 turns of SWG24 ECW as specified in Fig.33/ p.47 of the Bearden/ Bedini publication 'Free Energy Generation'.The coil former is 5.5cm wide, 8cm tall and the central hole is 1.6cm. I decided to use this type of coil, because after these tets I wanted to test a cap-pulser.
    Core: Lincoln R60
    Rotor: It's a plastic wheel of about 5.90 inches. Eight magnets. C8 grade. All with North pole facing out.
    Circuit: For some time I buy the "Bedini SG 4 Transistor Board and Kit" in Teslagenx store. It's a real pleasure to talk to Tom C. He is always willing to help if you have any questions. The circuit is ready to work with 4 transistors, but my circuit only needs two. I have a three wire coil (trifilar). A trigger circuit and two circuits run.
    The basic idea of my circuit is this ...

    n_a.jpg

    I am using a 470 ohm resistor at the base of each transistor (MJL21194) and a potentiometer 1k. I think my sweet spot is when the potentiometer is set to 187.3ohm. I am also using the diodes 1N4007 and 1N5408.
    The waveform in my oscilloscope when not connected to the secondary battery is this...

    2.jpg

    And the waveform in my oscilloscope when is connected the secondary battery is this...

    3.jpg

    I also put a small analog ammeter in series with the positive of my secondary battery. When the circuit is operating in battery are entering approximately 90mA.

    1.jpg

    Now I'll put some data of the batteries. You can see that something bad is happening. I've been seeing a gradual decrease in the time taken to discharge the battery(s) down to 12.35-12.40V under load. I think this has to be reversed. I have to see an increase in time.
    I have designed a small circuit to protect the battery when it is charging in the SSG (system without capacitor). When the voltage reaches a value ... for example, 15.10v, the system stops automatically. There is also a small circuit to protect the battery when it is discharging its energy. When the voltage reaches a value ... for example, 12.35v, the system also stops automatically.
    In the first cycles, when the system detects that the battery has reached 15.10 was not well adjusted. You can see even a reading of 15.62v.
    I've never discharge these small batteries below 12.0v under load or faster than the C20 rate of discharge.

    The first column is the initial voltage, the second column is the final voltage, the third column is the time.
    I've always expected from one hour to four hours to start dischargers and chargers.

    Initial Voltage Final Voltage Time
    Discharge 12.85 12.15 7:03h
    ----expected from one hour to four-----
    Charge (ssg) 12.39 15.38 22:50h

    Discharge 12.87 12.20 8:35h
    Charge (ssg) 12.42 15.35 18:45h

    Discharge 12.99 12.30 3.50h
    Charge (ssg) 12.59 15.62 9.85h

    Discharge 12.93 15.25 3.45h
    Charge (ssg) 12.45 15.45 16.15h

    Discharge 13.00 12.35 3.40h
    Charge (ssg) 12.56 15.51 9.45h

    Discharge 13.03 12.30 3.25h
    Charge (ssg) 12.59 15.44 9.05h

    Discharge 12.97 12.30 2.23h
    Charge (ssg) 12.62 15.20 8.35h

    Discharge 12.93 12.39 3.43h
    Charge (ssg) 12.55 15.08 7.40h

    Discharge 12.97 12.27 3.10h
    Charge (ssg) 12.57 15.10 6.25h

    Discharge 13.03 12.30 2.50h
    Charge (ssg) 12.57 15.06 6h

    Discharge 12.92 12.33 2.25h
    Charge (ssg) 12.60 15.10 5.04h

    Discharge 12.92 12.35 4.30h
    Charge (ssg) 12.60 15.08 4.35h

    Discharge 12.70 12.30 1.15h
    Charge (ssg) 12.61 15.07 4.15h

    Discharge 12.90 12.32 1.45h
    Charge (ssg) 12.60 15.08 3.55h

    Discharge 12.84 12.35 1.30h
    Charge (ssg) 12.62 15.06 3.20h

    Discharge 12.64 12.31 1.27h
    Charge (ssg) 12.61 15.07 3.35h

    As you can see with these data something very strange it is happening with my batteries ..... and not exactly what the Sr.Bedini says it has to happen.
    I do not know where I could be my mistake.

    Thanks ans best regards and...sorry for my English.
    "Everybody should have this knowledge so they can get energy for themselves. Energy shouldn’t be
    controlled.” – John Bedini

  2. #2
    Im no expert, but have you tried using a battery as the primary to see if the result may be different?
    “Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.”

  3. #3
    Senior Member Tom C's Avatar
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    take the ammeter out of the circuit. use a battery for the primary not a power supply, you are wasting half the energy in the circuit. . you may have damaged your transistor my running it without a charging battery. your low voltage disconnect needs to be powered by something other than the battery. run your machine from a Battery please.

    Tomc


    experimental Kits, chargers and solar trackers

  4. #4
    Hi Pastor Gordon and Tom C:
    Thank you very much for your answer.
    I'm not using a battery on the primary side for the moment because I do not want to experiment with the COP of my system. I thought that one of the reasons for being the battery on the primary side was to check the system COP.
    I'm following these manuals ...
    .-http://freenrg.info/Bedini/SSG_STARTERS_GUIDE-One.pdf
    .-http://freenrg.info/Bedini/SSG_STARTERS_GUIDE-Two.pdf
    And -- Bedini Monopole 3 Group Experiment V1.01 --
    Tom, I only put my ammeter to take the picture. The whole time the ammeter has been out of the system.
    I also thought there was a mistake in my transistors. Both are fine.
    These documents (SSG_STARTERS_GUIDE-Two) are said to be possible to use 110V or 220V to 12V “wall wart” power supply as the “the input source”,
    which with two batteries form a ‘minimum practical requirement’. Having 2 batteries available to be charged is, at the very least, advisable so that you have one available to charge while load testing the other.
    Tom, is there an error in these documents?

    4.jpg

    Thanks and best regards.
    "Everybody should have this knowledge so they can get energy for themselves. Energy shouldn’t be
    controlled.” – John Bedini

  5. #5
    Senior Member Yaro1776's Avatar
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    The Wall

    Greetings to you Izham,

    I have reviewed your data in the first post and have a number of comments and observations. You have to bear in mind that many experimenters have experienced the same frustrations using only the radiant charge mode for the SSG. Many experimenters, including myself, have seen this behavior in their charge batteries when they are cycled many, many times. In essence, the battery performance curve becomes modified over time for both the charge and discharge cycles. There is evidence, from more learned experimenters, that the crystalline structure of the lead itself becomes finer. I have not dissected any batteries to confirm this.

    In my experience the charge battery becomes, for lack of a better word, addicted to the radiant charge mode and continues to want more. So here are a few suggestions.

    In your test data your stop charge voltage is not consistent: you will note that the rest voltage of the charge battery is all over the place and the battery rest time between runs is not specified. The same applies to the discharge cycle - this suggests that you tighten up your testing procedures and improve the consistency for each test run.

    So, knowing that the battery performance curves become modified over successive cycles, it is not surprising that the results start to become weird. Just the nature of the beast! What was originally a simple test starts to take on layers of unexpected complexity. The original testing parameters have to be thrown out the window after many successive cycles.

    One way to regain some capacity is to increase the Charge stop voltage - this will help as the battery becomes totally conditioned to the radiant charge. The lower discharge stop voltage can also be lowered to improve times. The last point here is that in order to verify the above one would need to perform a number of discharge curves down to 10.5v over the course of the conditioning and testing process. That in itself is definitely not conducive to the battery's health.

    To conclude, for practical purposes the radiant mode is generally used for rejuvenating weak batteries. A new battery exposed for a few cycles does improve in performance, however continued radiant charging will definitely affect its performance characteristics as many have noted. So any additional work with the SSG should incorporate a cap dump circuit to preserve repeatable performance.

    Certainly the above will create many questions, but these observations are based on hundreds of SSG tests in various modes of operation. To drive the point home - this experimenter has stopped using the radiant charge mode except for rejuvenation purposes or battery conditioning. Understanding the limits of this radiant charging process is a great first step - now one can turn to other intriguing aspects of the SSG.

    Keep it up,
    Yaro
    Last edited by Yaro1776; 07-31-2016 at 07:13 AM. Reason: syntax

  6. #6
    Yes I see your battery has lost capacity, if I read your logs right. Now the problem is simply that you are not putting enough amp hours back into the battery during the charge cycle... Which stated another way... leave your battery on the SG to charge longer, beyond the voltage of 15.62 or higher... Look at a typical battery charge curve upon approaching a full charge, it starts to level off to a flat line and the battery will not take any more charge and the voltage will no longer increase. Your charge voltage / battery cutoff voltage is too low it is, as your logs show, you are cutting off your charge somewhere on the curved part of the charge curve and not the flat part of the charge plateau. So your battery is loosing capacity because it is sulfating because it never sees a full charge cycle after cycle. What you are doing now will give you short charge times to 15.00 volts and steadily dropping battery capacity rates. Since your battery is now sulfated it will take somewhere around 5 full charge and discharge cycles to fully bring the battery back to full capacity and or beyond. Also at your particular charge rate, of 90ma you cannot harm your battery so let it charge until it reaches a maximum voltage level that your small system will provide.

    Hope this helps.

    Dave Wing
    Last edited by Dave Wing; 07-31-2016 at 09:48 AM.

  7. #7
    Hi Yaro1776, Dave Wing...and everyone.

    First forgiveness, I have taken some time to answer.

    Yaro1776, With your words I am a little calmer. "You have to bear in mind that many experimenters have experienced the same frustrations using only the radiant charge mode for the SSG".
    As I wrote in my first post, I've been a long time reading and doing some simple experiments in all this. It is now, at the moment when I really have the time I need to come to some conclusions. But I need to go in the right direction not to disappoint my illusions.
    Yaro1776, you're right about this..."In your test data your stop charge voltage is not consistent: you will note that the rest voltage of the charge battery is all over the place and the battery rest time between runs is not specified. The same applies to the discharge cycle - this suggests that you tighten up your testing procedures and improve the consistency for each test run."
    I will try to improve the times between chargers and discharges. I thought of putting a time of one hour for example. Do you think the time is right or is it better to rest the battery longer?.
    Now I'm a little confused with one of their advice. "One way to regain some capacity is to increase the Charge stop voltage - this will help as the battery becomes totally conditioned to the radiant charge. The lower discharge stop voltage can also be lowered to improve times. The last point here is that in order to verify the above one would need to perform a number of discharge curves down to 10.5v over the course of the conditioning and testing process. That in itself is definitely not conducive to the battery's health."
    In all the documents I'm reading, they say it is very important (when we are talking of lead acid batteries) not lower a voltage between 12.0 and 12.40. Deep cycle batteries do not have this limitation.
    It is true that in many ancient books they experience with these values. Charges at a voltage of 2.5v to 2.7v (15v - 16.2v) and discharger may be continued until the voltage drops to zero, but practically, the discharge should be stopped when the voltage of each cell has dropped to 1.7v (10.2v)
    With these data is really efficient for our experiments reach a voltage 10.2v?
    Yaro1776, please can you explain a little better your sentence..."A new battery exposed for a few cycles does improve in performance, however continued radiant charging will definitely affect its performance characteristics".

    O.K, Now I put the photo of one of my old books.

    6.jpg

    Dave Wing, thank you very much also for your answer and your advice. I modified a bit my detection circuit and now I'm cutting the charge between 16v and 16.2v.
    You have also written a very important phrase..."So your battery is loosing capacity because it is sulfating because it never sees a full charge cycle after cycle"

    5.jpg

    With these new data I will work now between 5 and 10 cycles. I'm also working on a new configuration with a different rotor.
    I will put my data very soon.

    Thanks and best regards.
    Izham
    "Everybody should have this knowledge so they can get energy for themselves. Energy shouldn’t be
    controlled.” – John Bedini

  8. #8
    Senior Member Yaro1776's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by izham View Post
    Hi Yaro1776, Dave Wing...and everyone.


    I will try to improve the times between chargers and discharges. I thought of putting a time of one hour for example. Do you think the time is right or is it better to rest the battery longer?.
    One hour is a reasonable time to allow the battery to settle a bit to a stable voltage value after the charging process - the same would apply to after the battery is discharged, a rest period will allow the battery to stabilize to a voltage value. This rest voltage value should become more consistent and slowly increase a bit as the battery becomes conditioned.

    In order to determine how the battery performance is impacted and modified sometimes it is useful to run a discharge curve to the 10.5v or so level for a graphical display of the effects of radiant energy. Not really recommended to go this low, but sometimes one needs to sacrifice and accept possible battery damage in order to gain knowledge. Be prepared to inadvertently trash some of your test batteries during the course of your testing. I recently traded in my three year's worth of damaged batteries collection for a new battery.

    The 12.2v level under load is my normal discharge stop voltage under a C20 load - after resting for an hour or so the battery should bounce back to about 12.35v - 12.45v depending on the battery and its condition along with other factors. Varying the value of the discharge load will alter the final rest voltage for a given battery. Other experimenters may have different methods based on their experience.

    Enjoy the ride,
    Yaro

  9. #9
    Hi again Yaro,
    Thank you very much for your reply. Yaro, I'm starting a new charge and discharge cycles. My system to discharge the battery works very well, but the system that detects 16v at the end of the charge, he has a problem. Sometimes the system stops to reach 16v and sometimes rises to the 16,20v or 16,40v.
    During the day I can do a cycle of loading and unloading, and overnight I can do another cycle. But during the night it is when I have the problem of exceeding 16v. I can not monitor the system because I'm sleeping ... but I dream Bedini.
    I made 8 complete cycles since my last post.
    I charge the battery up to 16V and above and as you know I have discharge up to the 12.20v. I think my batteries are still a problem because they are slow to charge approximately 9 hours and slow to discharge approximately 5 hours.
    Right now I think it's only a good thing happening. You said ..."after resting for an hour or so the battery should bounce back to about 12.35v - 12.45v depending on the battery and its condition".
    Well, during the day (when I am more careful) when it has finished discharging any battery. They have a voltage of 13 volts after one hour of rest.

    I'm working on a data logger with an arduino to generate curves of charge and discharge. I do not have enough money to buy a CBA.

    I think I still have to work very hard to see results in my batteries.

    Thansk and best regards.
    Izham
    "Everybody should have this knowledge so they can get energy for themselves. Energy shouldn’t be
    controlled.” – John Bedini

  10. #10
    Hi again...
    I have to correct a phrase ...
    Right now I think it's only a good thing happening. You said ..."after resting for an hour or so the battery should bounce back to about 12.35v - 12.45v depending on the battery and its condition".
    Well, during the day (when I am more careful) when it has finished discharging any battery. They have a voltage of 12.60 volts after one hour of rest.
    Thankssss
    "Everybody should have this knowledge so they can get energy for themselves. Energy shouldn’t be
    controlled.” – John Bedini

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