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Thread: Zero Force Motor Replication Project

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Yaro1776 View Post
    ....
    Other details: the rotor magnets are 3/4" neo's 90 degrees apart and that on the working model there are four strands of #20 wire in series wrapped in a figure eight pattern on the toroid - a bit clueless on my part as to the specifics of this detail.
    ...
    Dear Yaro,

    I thought to make a drawing on the switching sequencies. I assume that coil set A on the left hand side bobbin would have 4 coils in series, made from the 4 strands of wire and coil set B on the right hand side is similarly built, also from 4 strands of wire, connected in series. Then coil set A and B are also connected in series to have the same current in both.
    Of course I may be mistaken in the assumed operation, this could be confirmed from the pictures. Regarding the poles of the rotor magnets, they are NSNS as indicated in the drawing.

    Regards, Gyula
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Gyula; 07-23-2016 at 05:01 AM. Reason: text addition

  2. #12
    Thank you very much for showing the pictures. Will study them and make correction to my above switching sequence if needed.

    Re on the switching circuit: I think you can find a good video on it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5piAUDSyZU

    Gyula
    Last edited by Gyula; 07-23-2016 at 05:09 AM. Reason: addition

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Yaro1776 View Post
    ....
    RS and I measured the wire resistance of each series strand (four wires) at 0.8 ohms, however the overall measurement of the series strand turned out to be 2.5 ohms - scratching my head on this one since it significantly alters the total length of #20 awg mag wire. Each coil had a separate termination block. Somehow we fouled up?
    ...
    Well, do you mean each wire out of the four strands had 0.8 Ohm? (regardless of whether it was either the green wire or the other one?)

    From the pictures it seems to me that there might be a small difference in diameter between the green and the other wire, the green one may have size #21 ? Of course if you used a caliper for both wires, then they are equal in diameter for sure and my eyes are deceived by sensing a small difference.

    The total resistance may be estimated from the total Amper draw from the battery too, provided it was measured, or John or Peter may have mentioned it?
    Does anyone of you know how the current draw may change (if any) when the shaft is mechanically loaded?

    Gyula

  4. #14
    Senior Member Yaro1776's Avatar
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    Gyula,

    All the neo's are north out in my understanding.

    All the wires looked to be #20 to RS and I - there was a SSG coil next to us and the wire size appeared to be identical. All the strands for each coil are serial connections - apparently JB used what was on hand. We had absolutely no measuring instruments on hand; no micrometer, caliper or tape. Nada!

    Tom C had a DVM on hand and we measured the resistance of each of the four strands separately on the black terminal strip - then we took an overall series resistance measurement.

    There is no other information available on the ZFM - nothing was wired up during the demo. Only anecdotal data was the futility of trying to stop the rotation of the output shaft.

    We can flesh this out slowly - no problem.
    Off to the dump - later,

    Yaro

  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Yaro1776 View Post
    Gyula,

    All the neo's are north out in my understanding.
    ....
    Dear Yaro,

    If you mean John's 14 minute long video demo on the zero force motor ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQzcYZk9MWA ), then you are correct.
    That setup is a 3D printed version and the simple form: it has a single reed and single transistor to switch the two vertical coils that are connected in series. Each coil developes a N and S pole at their ends and John explains the push and pull operation (pulling on one side and pushing on the other whenever the reed triggers the transistor switch).

    However, if you read this post below from John, it turns out that the rotor magnets are NSNS... See how John put it:
    "The arrangement is much different on the rotor in peters model NN, SS across from each other. In the 3D demonstration model I have chosen to arrange the magnets NN, NN to keep it simple and from building a bi-polar switch."

    This is the link to his post from 2015:
    http://www.energyscienceforum.com/sh...1933#post21933

    This NSNS rotor magnet arrangement means that my proposed drawing with the switching sequencies could be correct.

    I did not mention in connection with the drawing that at the motor start-up the lower reed switch (at the 6 o'clock position) controls one of the inputs of the bipolar switching circuit (it is also known as the H bridge) and the rotor turns CW direction. When it covers 90 degree, the other reed switch (at the 9 o'clock position) controls the other input of the switching circuit and the latter reverses the direction of the coils current with respect to the starting direction. Hence the magnetic poles of the coils also reverses as shown in Fig. 2. Then the process continues and alternates the coil poles.

    Okay on the wire size #20 for both wire types, I do accept it of course. I do not think the exact number of turns are critical, perhaps making similarly 'fat' windings will suffice.

    If you or others have any issue with what I propose in the drawing, please ask.

    Gyula

  6. #16
    Senior Member Yaro1776's Avatar
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    ZFM Firing Circuit Detail

    Hello Gyula,

    Thank you for your very informative posts concerning some of the design details of the ZFM. Your magnet configuration diagram and explanation of the operation certainly make a lot of sense and clarify the basic operation of the ZFM. So this is one ZFM configuration that will work assuming the machine that was operated and inspected at the conference is unmodified.

    In JB's presentation of the ZFM he spent quite a bit of time explaining the magnetic fields that are within the ZFM and he stated that at 45 degrees between each set of the four N facing neo's was a Super Pole and that was one of the reasons that the triggering of the toroidal coils took place at the Bloch wall point of each coil as the magnet passed. This point reinforced the prior presentation's highlights of diamagnetic and paramagnetic fields as put forth by R. Haralick.

    Anyway two different views here and I will attempt to get additional information and details on the existing original ZFM that was demonstrated at the conference. Happy to try both configurations if need be, not a stumbling block at all. Perhaps I can also obtain a better image of the magnetic field arrangement for others' reference.

    In any case, I have attached a more detailed pic from my cell phone that depicts the ZFM's four transistor firing circuit. Perhaps your examination of the pic will confirm the NSNS rotor neo arrangement.

    Appreciate your analysis and input,
    Yaro

    ZFM Circuit.jpg

  7. #17

    Thumbs up John_Bedini_Zero_Force_Motor

    One of my favorites

  8. #18
    Hi Yaro,

    I do think that the machine shown at the conference was unmodifed and sure was in the same condition as Peter built it years ago. I base this on John's normal habit of not disassemble any device but build another one if you want to experiment with it.

    Re on the super poles that develop between any two North poles, I accept this but remember that this explanation is valid for this 3D simple zero force motor where the rotor magnets are positioned with all North poles radially outside. And if you listen to John's talk again from video time 2:48 to 3:14 in his video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQzcYZk9MWA you can hear "...but normally you'd have two South and 2 North poles" and I think the 'normally' can only mean the other setup shown at the conference. I think on superpoles John has always meant two identical magnetic poles (either NN or SS) placed near to or touching each other so that the two identical poles are able to reinforce each other by summing up the fields.
    In the setup shown at the conference, superpoles cannot develop due to the alternating NSNS rotor magnet poles but I believe this 'lack' is amply 'compensated' by the fact that each rotor pole is simultaneously pushed and pulled by the alternating poles of the coils as the 2 reeds control the H-bridge.
    As John mentioned the simple version (the 3D one in the above video) is easier to build, it has a single reed to control the single transistor to energize the two series coils.
    The setup shown at the conference has 6 transistors alltogether (4+2) and 2 reeds. The inductance hence the performance of the coils is increased by the 4 + 4 strands of wire. The use of the half curved bobbins insure the magnetic poles at the ends of the coils can be closer to the rotor poles, this way they are able to exert higher tossing and pulling forces (thus increasing shaft torque) with respect to the straight vertical coils used in the demo 3D setup.

    Thanks for the attached picture, it is surely the Bedini-Cole sequental bipolar switching circuit, (shown for instance in the youtube video I referred to in reply #12), the two Hall sensors indicated in that schematic is left out and the green wires coming from the reeds are soldered to the 1 kOhm resistors that then connect to the bases of the input transistors. (The other pins of the reeds ,black wires, are tied to the common battery negative of course.)

    Gyula

  9. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Yaro1776 View Post
    Hello Gyula,

    Thank you for your very informative posts concerning some of the design details of the ZFM. Your magnet configuration diagram and explanation of the operation certainly make a lot of sense and clarify the basic operation of the ZFM. So this is one ZFM configuration that will work assuming the machine that was operated and inspected at the conference is unmodified.

    In JB's presentation of the ZFM he spent quite a bit of time explaining the magnetic fields that are within the ZFM and he stated that at 45 degrees between each set of the four N facing neo's was a Super Pole and that was one of the reasons that the triggering of the toroidal coils took place at the Bloch wall point of each coil as the magnet passed. This point reinforced the prior presentation's highlights of diamagnetic and paramagnetic fields as put forth by R. Haralick.

    Anyway two different views here and I will attempt to get additional information and details on the existing original ZFM that was demonstrated at the conference. Happy to try both configurations if need be, not a stumbling block at all. Perhaps I can also obtain a better image of the magnetic field arrangement for others' reference.

    In any case, I have attached a more detailed pic from my cell phone that depicts the ZFM's four transistor firing circuit. Perhaps your examination of the pic will confirm the NSNS rotor neo arrangement.

    Appreciate your analysis and input,
    Yaro

    ZFM Circuit.jpg
    If you think about the full bipolar Bedini/Cole ckt in terms of the window motor and magnet NSNSNS arrangement in relation to the coil and the "180 degree" timing it should become very clear. All that is happening is the ckt allows you to switch the direction of current in the coil so what ever magnet arrangement you choose is up to your imagination.

    The big difference being the ZFM's coil and timing.

  10. #20
    Senior Member Yaro1776's Avatar
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    Turning the Corner

    Greetings Gyula and Patrick,

    Your explanations and examples are very clear for which sincere thanks is extended. I am sure at this point the many that have been following this thread have a much better perception how this motor works. Some enlightenment is always welcome and a solid foundation helps immensely.

    Now comes the other aspect of putting together a relatively simple design that all interested can replicate, perhaps not the full monty, but at least an effort to get this on a roll. The eventual goal is to have a performance data set.

    The initial impetus for this project was the conference demonstration of the motor's torque capability. The question then arose as to the actual power consumption versus its output performance - unfortunately this type of information is or was not accessible or readily available. I heard the gears clicking in many heads already visualizing a standard or hybrid generator - alternator driven by a ZFM version. Can this vision be realized into a truly useful driver or is it destined to be another curio gathering dust on the shelf? Interesting to see how all this develops.

    Attached ZFM Mag Field.pdf

    Stay tuned and have patience,
    Yaro
    Last edited by Yaro1776; 07-26-2016 at 02:19 PM. Reason: Typo

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