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Thread: Wheel slowing down when battery connected

  1. #1

    Wheel slowing down when battery connected

    Hello all! it's been a while, i'm building my 3rd bedini this time using all the recomendations from the books. after i tuned for highest speed and lowest current draw (as specified on the book) i observed that when i let the wheel speed up without the back battery connected, it reaches a certain speed and when the battery is connected the wheel slows down, also the current draw goes down. so the battery looks like a load on a standard generator... is this normal? does this mean that the machine is out of tune?
    cheers to all

    carlos

  2. #2
    Senior Member John_Koorn's Avatar
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    Hi Carlos, I'm pretty sure the books recommend not to run your SSG without a back battery connected. If they don't, then they should. Please don't do it.

    John K.

  3. #3
    ok John, thanks for the suggestion, i already knew that, the books do say that... i still like to test run it like that to make observations, like this one... just trying to learn something about the tuning... if the machine is supposed to output very low current, then why is the wheel slowing down? there must be a current flowing that's causing lenzs law on the coil, this makes me think that the machine is not proprely tuned, it looks like it's harder than it seems to properly tune this machine... by the way, haven't been able to draw anywhere near 0 ohms with the 1ohm resistor test. correct me if i'm wrong please, bedini says clearly on one of his dvds: "if youre drawing any current with a 1ohm resistor at the output your machine is not tuned"... any ideas? thanks, good day to all;

    carlos

  4. #4
    Senior Member John_Koorn's Avatar
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    Hi Carlos,

    OK, let's do the thought experiment - rather than having you blow up your transistors.

    So, what are your observations so far?

    You said the wheel runs faster with no load, but when you connect a battery as a load it slows down but also draws less current.

    If you look at the circuit without the charge battery connected, you should notice that the circuit does in fact have a load. That load is the transistor!
    When the transistor switches on, the coil charges the iron. When the transistor switches off, the iron wants do discharge through the coil wires and through the path of least resistance as quick as it can. Since the primary battery is the wrong polarity and has a very high resistance (like a big blocking diode) and the energy must go somewhere, the transistor junction takes the hit. This is why the neon bulb when placed across the transistor lights up. It's there just to protect the transistor.

    OK, so now you (are tired of blowing transistors and) put another battery across the coil so when the coil discharges the energy can easily discharge into the battery. The polarity is correct and the resistance, or impedance, of the load is very small.
    But why does the draw current go down and why does the speed go down? Well, this is a very interesting thing.
    It's interesting because on a normal generator, it's the opposite. When you load a generator down, its uses more current - not less.
    So why does the Bedini SG use less current when you load it down? Well, first of all its not your normal type of generator. In fact it's not really a generator in the normal sense of the word. It's more like an impedance matching self regulated magneto. Meaning, that it automatically adjusts itself according to the impedance of the load. You see, as the impedance of the load is lowered the rotor speeds up. But when the rotor speeds up, why doesn't the draw current increase? Beacause it's not a motor either.
    Well, why does it speed up? It speeds up because as the battery charges and its voltage rises, its internal resistance (impedance) decreases. As its impedance decreases, it's ability to soak up the energy from the discharging coil increases. This in turn allows the rotor to spin a little bit faster. As the rotor spins faster, the on time of the transistor is shorter which in turn means less energy is consumed per cycle. However, since the rotor is spinning faster there are more cycles per minute (or magnets per minute) which kind of balances the draw current out.

    So basically, if you run the machine normally you should notice the the RPM of the rotor is faster at the end of the charge cycle than at the start - but you may not notice any discernible increase or decrease of draw current.

    Let me me also clarify about Lenz law. Lenz law does not apply to this machine, because the way the circuit is designed the coil is never discharging through itself. Lenz law also states that the back EMF can only be less than the voltage applied to the coil. But we see that the output voltage of the coil when discharged is many, many times the input voltage. So,Lenz law cannot apply to this machine.

    The 1 ohm resistor test. This test is designed to show you that the machine is not charging the back battery primarily with current. It's also designed to show you how the machine regulates itself to the load. If you did the test correctly and placed the 1 ohm resistor in place of the back battery, the first thing you should've observed is that the machine ran terribly! Why? Because you changed the impedance of the load. The impedance of a good lead acid battery is pretty low, somewhere in the low milli-ohm range. Let's say 23 milli-ohms.
    A 1 ohm resistor has an impedance of around 1000 milli-ohms, so it's a much higher impedance than a lead acid battery. So when you run the machine the 1 ohm resistor cannot accept the energy as well as the battery so the machine slows down, dreadfully. But what may also have noticed is that (if your machine was tuned correctly) the 1 ohm resistor did not heat up as you would expect, meaning that there is not much current going through that 1 ohm resistor.
    In fact, if you measured the voltage over the resistor and used Ohm's law to calculate the current going through the 1 ohm resistor you'd be able to tell just how much current is passing through it. If you then compared that to the draw current from the primary battery, you should be asking yourself "well, what's charging the battery?"

    Sorry for the long post...

    John K.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by John_Koorn View Post
    Hi Carlos,

    OK, let's do the thought experiment - rather than having you blow up your transistors.

    So, what are your observations so far?

    You said the wheel runs faster with no load, but when you connect a battery as a load it slows down but also draws less current.

    If you look at the circuit without the charge battery connected, you should notice that the circuit does in fact have a load. That load is the transistor!
    When the transistor switches on, the coil charges the iron. When the transistor switches off, the iron wants do discharge through the coil wires and through the path of least resistance as quick as it can. Since the primary battery is the wrong polarity and has a very high resistance (like a big blocking diode) and the energy must go somewhere, the transistor junction takes the hit. This is why the neon bulb when placed across the transistor lights up. It's there just to protect the transistor.

    OK, so now you (are tired of blowing transistors and) put another battery across the coil so when the coil discharges the energy can easily discharge into the battery. The polarity is correct and the resistance, or impedance, of the load is very small.
    But why does the draw current go down and why does the speed go down? Well, this is a very interesting thing.
    It's interesting because on a normal generator, it's the opposite. When you load a generator down, its uses more current - not less.
    So why does the Bedini SG use less current when you load it down? Well, first of all its not your normal type of generator. In fact it's not really a generator in the normal sense of the word. It's more like an impedance matching self regulated magneto. Meaning, that it automatically adjusts itself according to the impedance of the load. You see, as the impedance of the load is lowered the rotor speeds up. But when the rotor speeds up, why doesn't the draw current increase? Beacause it's not a motor either.
    Well, why does it speed up? It speeds up because as the battery charges and its voltage rises, its internal resistance (impedance) decreases. As its impedance decreases, it's ability to soak up the energy from the discharging coil increases. This in turn allows the rotor to spin a little bit faster. As the rotor spins faster, the on time of the transistor is shorter which in turn means less energy is consumed per cycle. However, since the rotor is spinning faster there are more cycles per minute (or magnets per minute) which kind of balances the draw current out.

    So basically, if you run the machine normally you should notice the the RPM of the rotor is faster at the end of the charge cycle than at the start - but you may not notice any discernible increase or decrease of draw current.

    Let me me also clarify about Lenz law. Lenz law does not apply to this machine, because the way the circuit is designed the coil is never discharging through itself. Lenz law also states that the back EMF can only be less than the voltage applied to the coil. But we see that the output voltage of the coil when discharged is many, many times the input voltage. So,Lenz law cannot apply to this machine.

    The 1 ohm resistor test. This test is designed to show you that the machine is not charging the back battery primarily with current. It's also designed to show you how the machine regulates itself to the load. If you did the test correctly and placed the 1 ohm resistor in place of the back battery, the first thing you should've observed is that the machine ran terribly! Why? Because you changed the impedance of the load. The impedance of a good lead acid battery is pretty low, somewhere in the low milli-ohm range. Let's say 23 milli-ohms.
    A 1 ohm resistor has an impedance of around 1000 milli-ohms, so it's a much higher impedance than a lead acid battery. So when you run the machine the 1 ohm resistor cannot accept the energy as well as the battery so the machine slows down, dreadfully. But what may also have noticed is that (if your machine was tuned correctly) the 1 ohm resistor did not heat up as you would expect, meaning that there is not much current going through that 1 ohm resistor.
    In fact, if you measured the voltage over the resistor and used Ohm's law to calculate the current going through the 1 ohm resistor you'd be able to tell just how much current is passing through it. If you then compared that to the draw current from the primary battery, you should be asking yourself "well, what's charging the battery?"

    Sorry for the long post...

    John K.
    John, do not be sorry, I like your post and hope others read it too! Been playing with loads on the back lately and your post was timely for me Aln

  6. #6
    Hello all, thank you john, that's very kind of you to write all that good information... i did blow up a few transistors!, i knew it would happen, hehe. theres a tuning point at which the wheel actually speeds up when the back battery is connected. tuning is proving to be quite a challenge, this machine is definetely a different world, theres so much to learn. i'm working on the cap dump now based on the bedini DVD stair step charging, going for the comparator ckt, if anyone has any suggestions for this build im all ears.... cheers happy new year everyone


    carlos

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Carlos Galvis View Post
    going for the comparator ckt, if anyone has any suggestions for this build im all ears.... cheers happy new year everyone
    carlos
    Are you going to run this in generator mode, or standard ssg mode.

    In generator mode the voltage to the capture cap triggers the comparator. If you are using the standard ssg mode, then you can trigger the cap dump with a 555 timing circuit.

    In both cases, use fat wire at the backend, Fat wire to the capture capacitor and fat wire from the capture capacitor to the battery.

    Maybe these threads can help you,
    http://www.energyscienceforum.com/sh...ght=comparator
    http://www.energyscienceforum.com/sh...ighlight=dumpl

    Another Schematic
    http://www.energyscienceforum.com/al...achmentid=4129



    have fun

    Most
    Kindest
    Regards
    Nityesh Schnaderbeck
    Last edited by Nityesh Schnaderbeck; 12-28-2015 at 04:36 AM.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Faraday88's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nityesh Schnaderbeck View Post
    Are you going to run this in generator mode, or standard ssg mode.

    In generator mode the voltage to the capture cap triggers the comparator. If you are using the standard ssg mode, then you can trigger the cap dump with a 555 timing circuit.

    In both cases, use fat wire at the backend, Fat wire to the capture capacitor and fat wire from the capture capacitor to the battery.

    Maybe these threads can help you,
    http://www.energyscienceforum.com/sh...ght=comparator
    http://www.energyscienceforum.com/sh...ighlight=dumpl

    Another Schematic
    http://www.energyscienceforum.com/al...achmentid=4129



    have fun

    Most
    Kindest
    Regards
    Nityesh Schnaderbeck
    Hi Nityesh,

    In the comparator method, Its the Voltage across the Dump Cap that triggers the Inverted Potential Switch, while if you use the 555 timer method its the mere timing that you set for the Voltage to reach 2 times the Battery Voltage and then trigger the dump... i guess you can use either methods ...but one is fixed for some other reasons..not disclosed here Here I disclose the difference..if you use SSG method this has to have a trifilar coils with the recovery coil going to a bridge while in the Gen Mode its the Vanilla witha Single diode going to the Dump cap...Just catch the Scientific Crux of this difference and lol you have the entire stuff knowm....
    Rgds,
    Faraday88.
    Last edited by Faraday88; 12-29-2015 at 04:57 AM.
    'Wisdom comes from living out of the knowledge.'

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