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Thread: New Medium Sized Machine

  1. #41
    Hi Faraday88

    Well, I used to have my own automotive shop, and one of my specialities was in advanced electronic ignitions, and high performance racing ignitions with standard and dual point contact sets. I used an oscilloscope to do my fine tuning so that I could eliminate any spurious problems involving arcing and other problems associated with high RPMs.

    Lets see...a high performance balanced and blueprinted Corvette (I regularly worked on many Corvettes that belonged to the Northwest Corvette Club, and also police interceptor cars, as well as, drag racing engines) 327 V-8, 4-bolt main bearing engine lives pretty happily at 7,500 RPM divided by 2 (four stroke engines fire once per cylinder every two revolutions) equals 3,750. 3,750 times 8 (cylinders) equals 30,000 times the contact set opens per minute. 30,000 divided by 60 (seconds in a minute) equals 500 hz. A tricked out Z-28 302 V8 four-bolt main bearing engine can go to a considerably higher RPM--and, engines designed for racing (back then) did this all the time with a dual points ignition systems--one set opens to a lessor degree than a single contact set does, and then another set opens afterwards, then the first closes, but the circuit remains open longer, because the second set is in-between the first set as far as an electrical circuit is concerned--thus, eliminating possibility of "floating the points" (creating a misfire due the contact set staying open because it's spring was not strong enough to close at that RPM. I have seen effective points ignition systems operation at least to 8,500 RPM (do the math). In fact, I had a high performance 327 V8 with a four-bolt main engine that didn't have any problem doing 7,000 (and would have gone higher, except I didn't want to display the innards of my engine all over the highways of my home town), and it did it quite nicely with a single point ignition system! Now...we regularly see SSGs running at 300-350 RPM. 350 times 21 magnets (being generous, most only have 18) equals 7350. 7350 divided by 60 equals 122.5 hz--well below what I just described. One could make a cam on the end of the rotor shaft that had enough "lobes" for the amount of poles you need to fire, or, have several sets, offset from each other, and a single lobe, or whatever configuration you want...I would say that's pretty fast switching!

    Getting back to using the oscilloscope while "tuning" high performance engines: First, what is the job of a contact set? Answer: A points ignition system in a vehicle with a 12 volt system, first reduces the voltage to nine volts, using a hefty resistor, before going to an ignition coil (a transformer whose job it is to take the nine volts, and in the case of one of the high performance Mallory coils I worked with, turns it into about 50,000-70,000 volts). After the current exits the primary side of the coil, it goes to the distributor, which has, among other things, one or two contact sets, and a capacitor to help keep the current from arcing when the contact set opens. So, when looking at this process on an oscilloscope, one sees the base current on the primary side staying high, and then suddenly and briefly going low. As soon as the contact set opens, and the primary side goes low, the field of the coil collapses, and the secondary winding unloads 60.000 volts in a lightning fast snap that would send you across the room if you got hit with it (don't ask me how I know that). When studying the scope pattern, one sees much the same thing as we look at when we observe the patterns for our SSG builds when we are tuning them with a scope--including "ringing" and everything else...

    CONCLUSION: This idea should work...
    Last edited by James_Somewhere_In_Idaho; 11-30-2015 at 10:24 AM.
    Best regards

    James, somewhere in Idaho

    “So this is how liberty dies…with thunderous applause.”

    ~ Padmé Amidala ~

  2. #42
    Senior Member Faraday88's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamesgray3rd View Post
    Hi Faraday88

    Well, I used to have my own automotive shop, and one of my specialities was in advanced electronic ignitions, and high performance racing ignitions with standard and dual point contact sets. I used an oscilloscope to do my fine tuning so that I could eliminate any spurious problems involving arcing and other problems associated with high RPMs.

    Lets see...a high performance balanced and blueprinted Corvette (I regularly worked on many Corvettes that belonged to the Northwest Corvette Club, and also police interceptor cars, as well as, drag racing engines) 327 V-8, 4-bolt main bearing engine lives pretty happily at 7,500 RPM divided by 2 (four stroke engines fire once per cylinder every two revolutions) equals 3,750. 3,750 times 8 (cylinders) equals 30,000 times the contact set opens per minute. 30,000 divided by 60 (seconds in a minute) equals 500 hz. A tricked out Z-28 302 V8 four-bolt main bearing engine can go to a considerably higher RPM--and, engines designed for racing (back then) did this all the time with a dual points ignition systems--one set opens to a lessor degree than a single contact set does, and then another set opens afterwards, then the first closes, but the circuit remains open longer, because the second set is in-between the first set as far as an electrical circuit is concerned--thus, eliminating possibility of "floating the points" (creating a misfire due the contact set staying open because it's spring was not strong enough to close at that RPM. I have seen effective points ignition systems operation at least to 8,500 RPM (do the math). In fact, I had a high performance 327 V8 with a four-bolt main engine that didn't have any problem doing 7,000 (and would have gone higher, except I didn't want to display the innards of my engine all over the highways of my home town), and it did it quite nicely with a single point ignition system! Now...we regularly see SSGs running at 300-350 RPM. 350 times 21 magnets (being generous, most only have 18) equals 7350. 7350 divided by 60 equals 122.5 hz--well below what I just described. One could make a cam on the end of the rotor shaft that had enough "lobes" for the amount of poles you need to fire, or, have several sets, offset from each other, and a single lobe, or whatever configuration you want...I would say that's pretty fast switching!

    Getting back to using the oscilloscope while "tuning" high performance engines: First, what is the job of a contact set? Answer: A points ignition system in a vehicle with a 12 volt system, first reduces the voltage to nine volts, using a hefty resistor, before going to an ignition coil (a transformer whose job it is to take the nine volts, and in the case of one of the high performance Mallory coils I worked with, turns it into about 50,000-70,000 volts). After the current exits the primary side of the coil, it goes to the distributor, which has, among other things, one or two contact sets, and a capacitor to help keep the current from arcing when the contact set opens. So, when looking at this process on an oscilloscope, one sees the base current on the primary side staying high, and then suddenly and briefly going low. As soon as the contact set opens, and the primary side goes low, the field of the coil collapses, and the secondary winding unloads 60.000 volts in a lightning fast snap that would send you across the room if you got hit with it (don't ask me how I know that). When studying the scope pattern, one sees much the same thing as we look at when we observe the patterns for our SSG builds when we are tuning them with a scope--including "ringing" and everything else...

    CONCLUSION: This idea should work...
    Hi James,

    Put a 0.47 u F @ 600V in PARALLEL to the primary before doing the point breaker switching of your High-performance Mallory Ignition coil and see the result...something you will appriciate
    Rgds,
    Faraday88.
    ‘Mass is the Spatial density of Matter (Particle) and the Temporal Intensity of Space (Field)’.

  3. #43
    Hi Faraday88

    I'd love to try that, but I no longer work on muscle cars. My son and I have a couple hobbies together, one is building things such as what is described here on this forum (and hoping someday to have some small homebuilt CNC equipment, such as 3D printers, etc, to help us build things), another is high performance turbocharged all-wheel-drive sports cars...however, the cars we work on (only for limited amounts of time, and our own cars--as neither of us can work on other people's cars due to prior disabling injuries) have rather sensitive computer controls, and I do not think I would want to risk blowing an ECU up...However, if I happen to find an old high performance coil, I might be able to rig up a test bed to try out your suggestion...thank you...
    Best regards

    James, somewhere in Idaho

    “So this is how liberty dies…with thunderous applause.”

    ~ Padmé Amidala ~

  4. #44
    Just an update..

    I have tried a reed switch and it presents it's own set of challenges. It will work but if you go to strong it will latch. I tried adjusting the timing and that could help but the only way to get the reed happy is to run the machine in such a way that it's not really charging very well. What I am really finding is that without the arcing you will not get anywhere near the same performance as you can get with transistors. The arcing wears down whatever mechanical switch you are using and there seems to be no way around it. I would actually favor the first way I tried with the rods over the reed simply because I can run hard as I like and get some good charging at the cost of burning rods but the reed will latch and possibly burn up your coils or at a minimum run your primary down in a flash. Given the choice I would rather have dependable switching that I have to replace rods on.

    I tried a lot of variations like biasing the reed input with resistance thinking the arc may prefer to run back down to the charge pos if it was an easier path but that didn't work out too well. I even tried a traditional flyback diode and of course that suppressed the arc greatly but then we are not picking off the spike. I wish I could figure out how to make the spike run down to the charge pos but it prefers to arc instead. This is making me appreciate Mr. Bedini's transistor setup even more than ever. I imagine he may have done similar testing with mechanical switching and knows the best way to avoid it is to use the transistor. I will say that with very low power setups the reed or the rod would probably work very well, like the 3d models he is working on lately but I envisioned this machine to be handling banks of batteries. I even tried placing a resistor across the switch point to give it a soft off similar to a transistor but nope, it still wanted to eat itself for lunch.

    Oh well guys this is why I experiment, you don't know until you try. In a pinch you absolutely can use a mechanical switch and you will harvest the spike but at a cost.

    Not sure if I am going to give up on this idea or keep pushing on. In the back of my mind I always knew if the mechanical switching wasn't going to work out I could run this thing with a circuit board.

  5. #45
    Hi Bob

    I understand you may be frustrated, but hang in there. You'll figure it out.

    BTW, hate to keep beating a drum no one seems to want to listen to, but Look at these waveforms:

    Attachment 4996

    Attachment 4997

    Attachment 4998

    These look familiar?

    Well, these are typical O-scope patterns for modern automotive electronic ignitions. However, I can tell you first hand that the contact set versions of these look even more like John B's commutator SG waveform...just saying...
    Best regards

    James, somewhere in Idaho

    “So this is how liberty dies…with thunderous applause.”

    ~ Padmé Amidala ~

  6. #46
    Senior Member James McDonald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobZilla View Post
    Just an update..

    I have tried a reed switch and it presents it's own set of challenges. It will work but if you go to strong it will latch. I tried adjusting the timing and that could help but the only way to get the reed happy is to run the machine in such a way that it's not really charging very well. What I am really finding is that without the arcing you will not get anywhere near the same performance as you can get with transistors. The arcing wears down whatever mechanical switch you are using and there seems to be no way around it. I would actually favor the first way I tried with the rods over the reed simply because I can run hard as I like and get some good charging at the cost of burning rods but the reed will latch and possibly burn up your coils or at a minimum run your primary down in a flash. Given the choice I would rather have dependable switching that I have to replace rods on.

    I tried a lot of variations like biasing the reed input with resistance thinking the arc may prefer to run back down to the charge pos if it was an easier path but that didn't work out too well. I even tried a traditional flyback diode and of course that suppressed the arc greatly but then we are not picking off the spike. I wish I could figure out how to make the spike run down to the charge pos but it prefers to arc instead. This is making me appreciate Mr. Bedini's transistor setup even more than ever. I imagine he may have done similar testing with mechanical switching and knows the best way to avoid it is to use the transistor. I will say that with very low power setups the reed or the rod would probably work very well, like the 3d models he is working on lately but I envisioned this machine to be handling banks of batteries. I even tried placing a resistor across the switch point to give it a soft off similar to a transistor but nope, it still wanted to eat itself for lunch.

    Oh well guys this is why I experiment, you don't know until you try. In a pinch you absolutely can use a mechanical switch and you will harvest the spike but at a cost.

    Not sure if I am going to give up on this idea or keep pushing on. In the back of my mind I always knew if the mechanical switching wasn't going to work out I could run this thing with a circuit board.

    Hi Bob --

    The below reed switch will switch up to 10,000 volts at 3 Amps. The break down voltage is 15,000 volts and
    will carry 5 Amps maximum once switched on. Looks like Digi-Key and Mouser want you to buy a minimum of 25
    pieces for $650.00. The one place below will sell one for a little over $28.00 dollars. Maybe it may handle the arc since
    it can switch 10,000 volts. If you contact the company directly maybe they may sample you one for the shipping
    costs.

    https://standexelectronics.com/produ...reed-switch-3/

    https://standexelectronics.com/resou...s-reed-switch/

    http://www.onlinecomponents.com/mede...tml?p=11731933


    James McDonald

  7. #47
    Hi James McDonald

    Nice, thank you for posting!
    Best regards

    James, somewhere in Idaho

    “So this is how liberty dies…with thunderous applause.”

    ~ Padmé Amidala ~

  8. #48
    Hi James M,, thanks for the link. I have noticed that 3A seems to be the limit for reeds. Those longer ones with the big tongs do seem to be the best for this type of work. I have pretty much decided that switching the coils directly with the reed is asking too much of it.

    I have reached a point with this experiment that it's drifting now away from odds and ends and back into specialized parts. Oh well at least we did see some primitive switching and what that looks like.

    I am currently running a solid state relay and a reed. The reed is switching the relay which switches the coils. In the attached video I am using some of my crystal cells to supply the relay, purely for show of course ;-)

    The relay requires 4-8v @13.5ma. It is really an opto-coupled FET but in a single package sold as a relay. The coils are in series at about 6.5 Ohm 18awg. This is very low power but It is working nicely. If I roll up 3 more coils and put those in series then parallel with the original 3 I will gain some power. Eventually this machine is supposed to have 12 coils so this is all just initial testing. I wish I still had them parallel but I had changed that to try and ease the arcing when I was switching directly on the reed.

    Link:
    http://1drv.ms/1SGknMy

  9. #49
    Here is another video with comments about how this is running and going through a few different sources for the relay.

    Link:
    http://1drv.ms/1Iyc8lj

  10. #50
    Senior Member Branch Gordon's Avatar
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    Great vid man. I like that you are using the crystal batteries for something.

    Quote Originally Posted by BobZilla View Post
    Here is another video with comments about how this is running and going through a few different sources for the relay.

    Link:
    http://1drv.ms/1Iyc8lj

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