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Thread: Maximum coil size?

  1. #1
    Senior Member Forrest's Avatar
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    Maximum coil size?

    Hi all,
    Thought I would give you an update with the coil winding progress so far. I now have built another test rig to see if there was any limitation to the size of the coils and the amount of power one can extract from them. The rig was built by using one of my bike wheels ……drilling 14 equally spaced holes around the perimeter for a cross bolt to mount the super pole magnets…. 1” X 2” X 3”……mounting on the 1” X 2” face. Two magnets ½ X 2 X 3 glued north to north. They were mounted with nylon banding strap and wood spacers to keep things in line and keep the magnets from flying off. This whole thing is totally disaasembleable for any additional modifications. I did pull test the strapping and it will offer the safety I need for this setup. OK now I have the super pole magnets all setup and ready for different coils for testing.
    I then took some junk particle board and built a very quick 3 sided box in which I could mount 1 or three coils. My intention is to see if I can trigger three coils all at once from the same magnet super pole. I know, I know, I am way outside the box here! ….but this is where I need to go.
    The coils I have wound are 8 lead #18 @ 193’ long with a trigger of #19 added along with the wind. I built the compact transistor package and mounted it onto an aluminum angle so I could easily use any or all of the transistors at once. All Transistors and diodes were matched.
    I wound this 8 lead +1 trigger coil onto a 4” X 4.5” ....1" dia core
    spool and then hooked it up for testing to fire all eight at once. I noticed some initial output and then nothing. I did some testing and could not easily find the problem. So I went back to basics and used one transistor and one lead to see if I could make things work very simply. After hooking up and getting the scope on it I fired it up and noticed that the pulse was very irratic and the tranny wanted to fire multiple times. Even though I had a large pot hooked up for variable resistance it was hard to make the tranny fire with one pulse. Once I had the pulse setup I noticed the wave form on the scope and it was very wide both on the top and bottom “square looking” and short and fat. About 2 minutes into testing the transistor burned. This then led me to find the burned tranny on the aluminum angle. So now I was stumped as to why things went wrong.
    Thinking back to the 7 lead coil, 4 lead coil, and single coil, that I was using to charge those monster L16’s with not long ago I stated comparing notes. The 8 lead coil is 193’ long and failed. The 7 lead coil is 132’ long and works. How well I do not know! The quality of the pulse!
    When comparing the magnetic pulse on the underside of the core things were much different. The small single coil had a very intense pulse to it when felt with a small screwdriver ….when the magnet passed by. As the coil leads were added the magnetic pulse becomes weaker. It seems the core and windings become saturated magnetically and takes time to ready for the next magnet pass. Maybe this is why john’s big ferris machine turns so slow and is so far between magnets as his coils are huge on this setup. I now realize that John knew this and this and is why his 7 lead SSG coil uses a big fan blade to slow it down. The coil needs time to desaturate between magnetic pulses.

    All in all it seems as if I have reached the ultimate threshold of maximum coil size and build. My next step is to try shortening up the length of the 8 lead coil to 132’ to see if I can get it to work. The magnetic saturation thing on the core is a big problem though. Looks like the RPM thing is not as important now!.....especially with the bigger coils. This is why Johns 10 coiler is limited to 4 leads per coil. He knows that the magnetic saturation is a problem that he cannot work around. Paul Babcock also touched on this very subject briefly during his lecture at the conference and can be seen on the “Magnetic Secrets “ offered by Peter Lindemann.
    It takes time for the energy to get into the coil and completely out of the coil between magnet passes. Thus the longer the length of coil lead the longer one must wait between magnet passes which translates into RPM. I have stumbled across this info and want all of you to learn from my mistakes. Bigger is not always better!
    Here is a combined photo of 4 scope shots side by side. The first three are of the standard SSG bike wheel and the far right photo is if the super pole magnets with the larger coil.

    http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/...ps245d857a.jpg

    I do not know if any of this makes sense from a scope point of view. This is beyond my knowledge!

    After shortening the 8 lead coil to 132’ long it was retried and it will not run the super pole wheel. It just barely keeps the wheel turning and then ever so slowly stops. Just for the grins I tried using the four lead coil and it did run the super pole wheel slowly. So I know it will work……..somewhere in the middle of things.

    Bud
    Do not procrastinate! Make something happen...even if it is wrong. Once begun half done!

  2. #2

    What Core Sizes ?

    Hi Forrest

    Looks like you and I are rowing the same boat as to say ! Just hope we are rowing in the same direction !

    I have opted to go the other way, when I changed to S/North on the magnets the voltages on the trigger where so low that it would keep the rotor running slowly (±870 rpm) at 1.8 amp 12v, with only 10 ohm bases resistors, but seemed with a better charge.

    Made another coil with the same wire 145 meters, 1+4 wires x 18 awg litz, but instead of a 17 mm core changed it to 30mm core, made the coil wider as to get the copper closer to the core, (see photo). On just the 1 coil it won’t run at all, even at a 3 amp 12v draw from the primary - not run.

    So added 2 of the other coils that I normally use with the 17 mm cores, it’s running nice but at 2.8 - 3 Amps draw 12v.

    Instead of getting the normal 30v to 60 v spike on the secondary battery positive it shot up to 200v spikes ! Everything runs cool, accept the 22 ohm trigger resistor, base resistor are 22ohms.

    My conclusion (as a newbie)
    Just changing the magnets to S/north and hoping they would work perfectly is a myth (you might be lucky), you will have to match them to get the Super North spike exactly 90 degrees to the magnet/wheel. (or maybe it’s just my magnets that is all over the place)

    Forrest you and I so far of base from the standard SSG, wonder if anybody is willing to comment? I for one have so many question don’t know if I should venture a risk?

    Virus
    Attached Images Attached Images

  3. #3
    Senior Member Forrest's Avatar
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    Hi Prinsloo,

    Let me see if I understand you correctly......You have the super magnets alternating nn,ss,nn,ss,nn,ss,nn,ss....like this? My temp setup is nn,nn,nn,nn,nn,nn,nn.....like this.

    You have the coils wound with 145 meters (475') each lead?

    You are using a spool with 30mm (1.2") dia core?

    Really nice construction! Do you have any idea what kind of output you are getting?

    Running @ 870 rpm I wounder if slowing the wheel will yeild a larger pulse.

    I will be going back to the four lead construction like you have built.

    Just on hold right now as I have been working on my windmill. It is a 3kv unit on a 100' tower I bought used. Everything is running like it should but cannot take advantage of the marginal power. I need to get a pulse unit to keep the batteries charging during the very slow wheel speed.

    Bud
    Do not procrastinate! Make something happen...even if it is wrong. Once begun half done!

  4. #4
    Senior Member Forrest's Avatar
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    Hi All,

    Have some new info to share and pictures on the prototype multiple coil SSG. This is an experiment that I needed to prove to myself that one can use multiple coils on the same magnet plane using a super pole magnet SSG.

    Where I left off was shortening the coil leads to 132' long each and seeing if I could make them work in unison.....3 coils on the same magnet plane. I started by getting one coil to work and making the wheel rotate. It did not want to rotate and this was the first major hurdle. Prinsloo sparked my imagination by talking about the s/north and I was questioning him about his super magnet setup......was it nn,ss,nn,ss or ss,ss,ss,ss or nn,nn,nn,nn,. Then I thought back to the DVD of John talking about Ed Leedskalnin and his mutiple magnet motor made fron the ford model T generator magnets. This arrangement is nn,ss,nn,ss,nn,ss. Actually the is no south if I remember correctly. It shows magnetism but no south pole.

    I thought back to the SSG and thought about the scalar south which is evident. I checked out the super pole wheel and there was no scalar south pole evident as mt setup was nn,nn,nn,nn,nn......etc.

    So this got me to thinking about modifying the magnet arrangement. Either I was to take out 7 magnets of the 14 and make them super south or put some neo's inbetween and see what happens. I did not have enough magnets to make the super souths but I had enough neo's. So I taped the small neo's onto the rim in between super pole norths to see if this would work. I rechecked the magnet arragement and the south was now evident in between the super north but somewhat weak due to the distance from the small neo outside diameter path.

    I then used one of the coils (8 lead + trigger....132' long) to see if this thing would run itself. I fired it up and lo and behold the wheel kept running under it's own but at a very slow RPM. Cool! Now to see how much voltage it can withstand. At 12 volts it was working fine and I adjusted the pulse with the scope by adjusting the variable resistor. Once the pulse looked good I hooked it up to 24 volts input and poof all eight of the trannies died. Well now I know where the curb is now! I could not make another eight matched transistors so I just used what was left to rebuild the electrical unit fore this coil.

    http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/...psdb1984e8.jpg

    My next step was to see if I could take the remaining coils, shorten them to 132', and then get them to work as a couple from one trigger pulse. They do work but there is a problem.....there is no resistor between the trigger and the MJL21194 tranny. The trannies will pulse more than once if any resistance is put in between. This is the line as to how big one can make the coils and make them and work. It is actually still too big! One can see this on the backside coil scope shot of the dual coil, setup as follows:

    http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/...ps13140403.jpg

    The following is the front side coil scope shot:

    http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/...ps43477459.jpg

    So now I wanted to see if I could hook all three coils using the same trigger pulse and it will not work as I would need a negative resistor between the trigger and the trannies. The result is too many pulses per magnet pass! So I setup the two outside coils to work as a team using the same trigger pulse and the third one to work as a stand alone.

    http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/...ps3909b4b6.jpg

    Now the unit is running with all three coils using the same super pole magnet pulse all at the same time. The output is phenomenal. Here I am charging a pair of 12 volt batteries in series (24volts) from a 12 volt battery input and the charging rate is beyond anything I have known so far. The input current is between 5-6 amps. I do know that the buss I am using for the output is bare #10 wire and it is getting just barley warm. This tells me the output is somewhere beyound 30 amp as we would know it.

    http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/...psf1b7fd9d.jpg

    Here are a few more pictures.

    This is the stand alone coil. As you can see it is not firing like it should.
    http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/...ps871fb89d.jpg

    http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/...psec17370f.jpg

    http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/...ps5813f6fe.jpg

    http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/...ps59792ce1.jpg

    http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/...pse46cdbf6.jpg

    So my next endeavor is now to build a very large energizer. 10+ coils. I have all the details laid out and most of the materials purchased. I also know where the curbs are! I need to finalize the design and to get buiding!
    Do not procrastinate! Make something happen...even if it is wrong. Once begun half done!

  5. #5
    Senior Member Tom C's Avatar
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    building it right

    after looking at you build I have a few things to chime in on here:

    1- the magnets. I assume the magnets are north south thru the thickness. which means you are using the weakest part of the magnet to trigger the coil, even the coil on the end. your magnet orientation is wrong. you will not get good sharp pulses from the trigger coil in your current configuration. and the side coils will be fighting against each other.

    the second reason I bring this up is to get something understood, the magnet ONLY switches the core in the monopole, nothing else. it is the electromagnet function of the coil that attracts and repels the magnets, the core is just the switch. the bloch wall in the coil is a function of the coil expanding and collapsing, not the core switching. when the core switches on all the coils it creates a push to each of the magnets as it passes the coil face. you are getting zero work from those side magnets. I can see why you tried to put neos in there, but it makes no sense. either way you have your magnets oriented wrong. t get a strong south you need the magnets close enough together for them to couple. spend some time looking at magnetic flux paths and, look at Johns drawings, and study howard johnsons work with magnetic gates, the radus boot patent and leedskalnins work.

    2- 5 to 6 amps primary current for 3 coils regardless of their size is just wrong, you have built a brute force pulse charger, I doubt you will see overunity with this build. ralphs 6 coil was less than 2 amps on the charge input. if anything on your machine is warm, you are wasting energy, transistors, cables, everything should be ambient or lower. the MJL can go negative.

    3- your coil orientation makes no sense to me, you want the coil against a north. not fighting a north south.

    I say this in all candor, you are chasing a squirrel up a tree with your build. before you get exotic in coil configs and switching, get good charging from one coil in multi transistor form. then study branch circuits and related swithcing functions such as the cap pulser. look at Johns patents. I have watched guys throw thousands of dollars at builds and become frustrated and walk away. I dont want to see that happen to you. I understand your research but you are going to be frustrated.

    at 130 feet your are close to the 10 coil wire length on John's machine. you dont need those huge magnets to switch your coils. they will be on way too long.


    experimental Kits, chargers and solar trackers

  6. #6
    Senior Member Tom C's Avatar
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    building it right

    after looking at you build I have a few things to chime in on here:

    1- the magnets. I assume the magnets are north south thru the thickness. which means you are using the weakest part of the magnet to trigger the coil, even the coil on the end. your magnet orientation is wrong. you will not get good sharp pulses from the trigger coil in your current configuration. and the side coils will be fighting against each other.

    the second reason I bring this up is to get something understood, the magnet ONLY switches the core in the monopole, nothing else. it is the electromagnet function of the coil that attracts and repels the magnets, the core is just the switch. the bloch wall in the coil is a function of the coil expanding and collapsing, not the core switching. when the core switches on all the coils it creates a push to each of the magnets as it passes the coil face. you are getting zero work from those side magnets. I can see why you tried to put neos in there, but it makes no sense. either way you have your magnets oriented wrong. t get a strong south you need the magnets close enough together for them to couple. spend some time looking at magnetic flux paths and, look at Johns drawings, and study howard johnsons work with magnetic gates, the radus boot patent and leedskalnins work.

    2- 5 to 6 amps primary current for 3 coils regardless of their size is just wrong, you have built a brute force pulse charger, I doubt you will see overunity with this build. ralphs 6 coil was less than 2 amps on the charge input. if anything on your machine is warm, you are wasting energy, transistors, cables, everything should be ambient or lower. the MJL can go negative.

    3- your coil orientation makes no sense to me, you want the coil against a north. not fighting a north south.

    I say this in all candor, you are chasing a squirrel up a tree with your build. before you get exotic in coil configs and switching, get good charging from one coil in multi transistor form. then study branch circuits and related swithcing functions such as the cap pulser. look at Johns patents. I have watched guys throw thousands of dollars at builds and become frustrated and walk away. I dont want to see that happen to you. I understand your research but you are going to be frustrated.

    at 130 feet your are close to the 10 coil wire length on John's machine. you dont need those huge magnets to switch your coils. they will be on way too long.


    experimental Kits, chargers and solar trackers

  7. #7
    @ All,
    First let answer a few questions, Magnetic saturation is not a problem if your using the correct magnets.
    The next thing is the current in the machine must be set to minimum. This machine must be set in the top portion of the bell curve as has been discussed before. The SG is based on the 1984 book without the DC Motor or the energizer attached. This is all in one machine. the dc motor part is pulsed from the magnets the recovery is a spike of high potential to the secondary battery. The two batteries are split in the circuit to make it easy to tune. If you want to just use one battery you must use capacitor discharge at double the battery voltage and the motor section must be in the off position when the discharge occurs. You can find many was to do this type of energizer. The most important thing is to not waste much energy in the primary circuits unless you have designed the machine to run a different way and then your on your own. The shaft power of the machine is around 23% so do something with it or add it into your COP equation as the energy must be counted, run a fan. The first toy you ever had than captures the wasted energy and gives mechanical power to do something with along with charging another battery. If the machine is balanced correctly your COP will be 1 or better. You must count everything in the system. If your looking with current meters you will see the primary but the secondary is much different to measure as not much current is found. The Battery does not care what charges it as long as the potential is found at it's terminals. The machine in the Patent was built to charge batteries as it was always a battery charger based on Tom Bearden's theories on battery back popping with a high potential. When this is done the battery changes and it becomes very hard to charge with a conventional charger, this is seen by the heat in the battery. The Energizer is equivalent to a magneto charging system. Before you attempt to do this work you must study what Magnetos do to batteries and how they charge batteries. If your looking for current with the SG machine it's not designed to do that. Watch The video I post. Look on Tom Bearden's web site on the simple Free Energy Motor http://www.cheniere.org/books/part4/s40.htm
    Last edited by John_Bedini; 10-22-2012 at 12:17 PM. Reason: Edit
    John Bedini
    My homepage: http://johnbedini.net

  8. #8
    In This Video I’m showing the original SG Monopole Energizer.
    Just giving some tips for the group in what to look for.
    This is discussed on the Energy Science Forum

    John Bedini
    My homepage: http://johnbedini.net

  9. #9
    Senior Member Branch Gordon's Avatar
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    I see a waffle maker in there! Does the Monopole toast up some good waffles too?

    Joking...

    Quote Originally Posted by John_Bedini View Post
    In This Video I’m showing the original SG Monopole Energizer.
    Just giving some tips for the group in what to look for.
    This is discussed on the Energy Science Forum


  10. #10
    Very Nice John!
    I liked the comparator circuit... looks way better than mine!
    So when are these machines going to be available?

    Les

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