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Thread: Maximum coil size?

  1. #111
    Senior Member John_Koorn's Avatar
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    Hi Mike, the difference is that the draw is 11.6w/sec constant whereas the 60w dump/sec is just one pulse - not 60w/sec constant.

    It's actually a bit more complex than that if you calculate the joules in/out.

    Hope this clears it up.

  2. #112
    Senior Member John_Koorn's Avatar
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    Hi Mike,

    I'll try and explain. There is no secret formula here, it' all just normal math.

    I can't give you figures for John Bedini's lab machine because I have not personally seen it run but I was there when we did the calculations on the bike wheel kit.

    You can't just calculate the COP of the machine by measuring the input current and then the amount of energy dumped from the capacitor to the charge battery. To be able to do that accurately you need a very expensive machine that does all the calculations for you, which no one has. Well maybe NASA does. John and Peter and I had that conversation at length, so it's not just me saying this.

    The only reasonable way to measure the COP with the tools that we had is to measure the energy taken from the primary battery and then calculate the energy taken from the charge battery after being charged.

    The way we calculated the COP was by calculating the input energy first. On an analog ammeter the machine was drawing 1A at 12.5v. 12.5W constant (well it's not quite constant, but the average pulsed DC current).

    First we charged the battery with the SG until it was fully charged.

    Next we took exactly 1 amp for 1 hour out of the charge battery which was a good 13Ah garden tractor battery from Walmart. This was done with the West Mountain Radio CBA IV and charted.

    We then charged the battery back up with the SG until it was fully charged again. We also charted the charge curve with the CBA IV. What we found was that the battery took less than 1 hour to charge. So right away, we knew that the COP was greater than 1.

    This test was done 3 times and each time the results were the same.

    We then added in the mechanical energy produced by the machine to turn the fan that was on the shaft. Once we factored this in we calculated the COP of the machine to be 1.4.

    After we did this John then took the primary battery and recharged it with a constant DC current charge and calculated that we had only taken 20% of the capacity out of the primary battery during these 3 tests. The primary battery was a 10Ah battery. So even though we had calculated that we took a total of 3Ah out of to run the machine for those 3 tests, we only had to put 2Ah back into it to re-charge it. We concluded that some of the energy used to run the machine was actually being returned to the primary battery.

    Now, we also tested and calculated the energy that was being dumped by the capacitor into the charge battery. We were actually dumping the capacitor at 25v, double battery voltage as John has always said. You are correct in that we were dumping it once per second, but as I posted yesterday the dump frequency increases as the the charge battery charges up because the difference in potential between the capacitor and the battery is reducing.

    As Peter wrote in the intermediate handbook, John designed the comparator so it did not dump the capacitor down to the voltage of the charge battery. I'm not at liberty to say what the voltage is it dumps down to as that is proprietary and confidential information that is covered under an NDA I have with Energenx.

    I can tell you the method of how the energy was calculated though. John used a DC current probe to measure the amount of current that was sent to the charge battery in a pulse, in fact a very short pulse. The current and length of the pulse was displayed on an oscilloscope. From this John used the normal formula to calculate the joules being dumped from capacitor at the point in time when we measured it. But this measurement alone will not give you the COP of the machine.

    So I have given you all you need to know to go and calculate what your machine is doing, no secret formulae, it's all just straight math you can work out with basic testing equipment.

    I too grew up when computers took up a whole floor of an office block. The first hard drive I ever fixed was larger than a washing machine and could hold an amazing 10MB. I used to fix punch card machines for a living. My first computer I owned had a whopping 4KB of memory. I was amazed when the first floppy disk arrived and it was 8.5" and could store 180KB! Man, when a guy at work brought in the first IBM PC with 2 x 5.25" floppy drives, 640KB of memory and a 6" monochrome display we were blown away! I remember him saying "Imagine one day when there will be one on every desk!" Anyway, now I'm rambling so I'll quit.

    I hope this helps you understand that it can be complex to do all these calculations.

    John K.

  3. #113
    Senior Member John_Koorn's Avatar
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    Hey Mike, 1.4 means that I got 1.4 times the energy out than the energy I paid to run the machine.

    John K.

  4. #114
    Senior Member John_Koorn's Avatar
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    Mike, I don't believe Rick is selling those 10 coiler kits anymore. Even so, they were not designed to the same specs as JB's original 10 coiler and their performance was very poor to say the least.

    The difference between Rick's 10 coiler and JB's? JB used the proper magnets, matched ALL the components and used the correct wire on his coils, which were also matched. He and Peter spent months building that machine and tuning it. John told me that Peter wanted everything perfect and that is why it is able to charge such a large bank of batteries.

    John K.

  5. #115
    Senior Member John_Koorn's Avatar
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    Mike,

    It's hard to get some decent numbers on this with so little information posted about it. i.e. no load testing results.

    Maybe he can drop by this forum and discuss further?

    John K.

  6. #116
    Senior Member Tom C's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroMikey View Post
    Here John says 350 feet max then in another post John B says 130 feet and not and inch more. I think we are not going anywhere here on sizing. Without more on coil sizing people can not match to batteries. This is a dead end.

    The staff has done their best and I wish you all well.

    http://freenrg.info/Bedini/SSG_Starter_Guide.pdf
    ok Mikey there is a lot of info out there and it depends upon the machine you are building. the 10 coil monopole is 18 awg 150 FT per strand approximately. Ralph's 6 coil 4 strands krauts 6 coil 18 awg 4 strands. we made our experimenters kit with the large monopole in mind. you want a big machine build 18 awg 4 strands approx. 150 feet. its not that hard. johns ferris wheel is a different beast running a different circuit the coils do different things than the monopole. build it like I am saying this is from inspecting the 10 coil myself. it runs at 24 volts. Tom C


    experimental Kits, chargers and solar trackers

  7. #117
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    Bro Mikey,
    You are a real machine! I am grateful for fellow builders like yourself!
    Many of us are working off meagre budgets and fitting things in as we can around family obligations.
    To be fair Mike I think you are asking great questions, but a clear analysis of many builds is unlikely to have been collated due to the exceedingly many variations between different builders. Then there is the variation in tuning, different impedance of batteries both at the primary and secondary etc etc. the only way to accurately do this would be to have one builder who varies one thing at a time and is fastidious about detail and accuracy. I for one encourage you to PLEASE follow your convictions and post your results. Not because I couldn't be bothered to do the hard yards myself, because i am deeply interested, but because what would take you weeks is likely to take many of us years!
    Hats off to you Mike! Keep at asking those probing questions because the right questions lead to great experiments

    James

  8. #118
    Senior Member Branch Gordon's Avatar
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    Hey BroMikey,

    It was my understanding that tuning the SSG with the variable resistor was how you matched the battery impedance. The coil gets you in the ballpark. So you don't have to guess, you just find the non-linear increases in RPM's and those are the resonant points.

    Quote Originally Posted by BroMikey View Post
    Hello James

    Thanks for the encouraging statements. Really the team here is way ahead they just are private about their data.
    So many have had inventions over the pass 100 years and have either kept it a secret or were afraid to give out the answers.

    These questions are not hard ones like "has anyone ever used a three hundred foot coil"?

    Ya know the maximum coil thread should be able to answer basic questions right?

    No way, I asked that question and no one has ever done that. Or because the new bike wheel kit uses a shorter thin wire, then no one is going to go outside the box.

    Same ole inside the box people wherever I go.

    Afraid of what people are going to think, don't do the experiment, don't buck the format, just do it like we tell you and you will pass.

    Anyway I'll rant later------- the questions I have like the coil being three hundred or so feet were given lengths in the SSG starter guide for the last many many many years and no one has any data.

    In fact asking the coil question has shown me a number of other things about the entire Bedini project.

    I understand very little about coil sizing to match batteries and it is clear that if I asked the question again I would be met with the same rejection.

    Okay lets assume there is someone who knows what page I am on.

    The coils are measured for impedance and are matched to the battery impedance within 1 MILLIOHM.

    Now what is so hard about that?

    Okay so today we as a group are told to get a lawn mower battery for the kits and they have average known impedance and the kits are made with an impedence that matches them I would hope.

    Now if we are to match something here we need the battery impedance first.

    Then we need to keep winding coils adding them in parallel until the impedance of the collective coil set matches what the battery is.

    This is no different than having a stereo and needing to match the output of the unit to drive speaker coils.

    John B and any radio electronix guy noseswhat I mean.

    So the coil set needs to be either measured while running at frequency and power range of operation or just generalize inductance at the resistance or all of the above. John B and Peter L. spent months tuning the BIG MACHINE.

    Do you know what that tells me? It tells me they didn't know either and they had to generalize and drive coils to measure impedance, rewinding and retuning for months, that is what it tells me.

    No one here has told me this, it is the merely a deduction on my part.

    This is where the word proprietary comes in, and I don't hold it against them for keeping this very specific information confidental. i know all these things.

    What I am trying to do is to get everyone understanding that if we are truly a team we need to compile these results as these sites were designed for.

    Yahoogroups, techgroup,monopole groups, energetics groups and God only knows what and where the information
    is at. Everybody still winging it after 20-30 years.

    The Maximum coil size of 350 feet has been specified by John B, for a good many years.

    So yeah needing to know, never having done it and no one else either.

    Does anyone have a clue on how the coil set impedance's are measured or calculated?

    Well atleast we know what is going to be required even if no one here is an audio engineer capable
    of this level of evaluation. No pun intended.

    The group is a collective of great folks willing to work together each one having his or hers abilities to advance this work.

    This is a wonderful group and I hope no one is taking what I say personally.

    My call is going out to people who can confirm my basic understanding of what is required to match coils TO battery IMPEDANCE.

    Coils are measured today with modern meters by an on board signal generator producing a frequency and driving current only to measure MILLIOHMS during the process. These are called MILLIOHM METERS.

    Has anyone ever measured coils this way?

    Has anyone ever done coil calc/s and MILLIOHM measurements?

    Now these questions narrow the answers a bit more.

    I will find the answer.

    I will assume that the tuning that John B and Peter L did will require ball park coil calc's with electronics math then real world measurements with meters, rewinding coils till the goal can be reached for every battery bank on earth.

    If we start now we might accomplish this as a team in 10-20 years.

  9. #119
    Senior Member Tom C's Avatar
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    as JB has always said a cap dump solves the problem of coil impedance as the cap is always lower than the battery in its impedance, and he way a cap recieves the radiant it shows no resistance to flow coming from the coils. cap dump is how you want it. old news is they way it has been, especially with the intermediate book coming out.
    Tom C


    experimental Kits, chargers and solar trackers

  10. #120
    Senior Member Tom C's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroMikey View Post
    Tom C you are always right there to give a good answer.
    It does seem right that a cap dump of negistors works better. So the amount of dumping negistors must be important. Now you got me batting at flies.

    I don't know what to say.

    I will think more now.
    with big batteries you can use upwards of 1 farad worth of caps, but you have to understand that you want the cap to dump fast enough to produce ion movement, and not so slowly that the electrons move. so how to get the cap dump to match the spike speed? commutators do it, but what else?

    Tom C


    experimental Kits, chargers and solar trackers

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