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Thread: Tuning Assistance

  1. #11
    Here is the latest. I have tried using the LED technique and(assuming I have wired this all right) on another smaller SSG build I have already made(The newer vertical is still in need of fixing) and it is not helping whatsoever. From 40mA to 140mA there seems to be no point where I can notice any indications for sweet tuned conditions. As I bit by bit turn the Potentiometer the wheel picks up speed in some points and the LED gradually gets to a point where it is permenatley on red. It seems to hit this point at 80mA. There is no part where the current goes a little and then the LED goes from somewhat flickering to a more spontaneous action and the real corresponds in action... It seems to be consistent with only a few periods where from 120mA to 150mA if I turn the Potentiometer very slowly then stop and repeat does it seem to pick some momentum up(though very little) for very small increases on the Ammeter. I am now trying a 2nd Ammeter to see if its an error.

    So at this moment I am considering the Laser RPM technique. Thoughts on this all so far??
    Last edited by maxgoenergy; 07-31-2015 at 12:33 PM.

  2. #12
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    That actually sounds about right for what you have to work with, believe it or not!

    As noted on this & other forums, the potentiometer is probably one of the worst things you can use on your set-up. I don't think there is a consensus as to why, but it could be that the thin carbon track responds differently (& very strangely!) to radiant energy. Another better explanation is that pots don't like being pulsed & as JB notes recently, there is a lot of pulsing on the SSG input as well as the output.

    Where you go from here depends on your end purpose for the SSG.
    1. If you want to tune it to get the very best results & experience over-unity figures every time you recharge a battery, you will need to get building some seriously good (& expensive!) resistance substitution boxes as detailed (very poorly!) in my earlier threads on it. I will do a proper video & step-by-step build process, with suppliers & costs when I get back up again - could be months away.
    2. If you just want it to restore old batteries or recharge dry cells, or other types, then you can buy a resistance wheel (a very, very basic one!) from the same place as the Laser Tacho.

    Unfortunately, the days of just getting a $29.95 quality Laser Tacho from the old Farnell website are well & truly gone. I just checked both RS & au.element14 to find both have discontinued them maybe a couple of years after I bought mine from there. They have got some still, but they're way too expensive.

    The quickest way out for a reasonable price is to go to your nearest Jaycar store & ask for their Laser Tacho for $79.95 & get a resistance wheel at the same time for $29.95...
    http://www.jaycar.com.au/Test-%26-Me...meter/p/QM1448
    http://www.jaycar.com.au/PRODUCTS/Pa...Wheel/p/RR0700

    Go there to get everything you need in one transaction. Take the part numbers with you so the salesman doesn't have to spend any time with you, find the bits yourself & ask for a discount. If refused, ask the store manager. If you're not happy with the deal, go back there on another day & try again with different staff or try another store. Alternatively, give them a call first, ask to confirm stock levels & put them on hold behind the counter, making sure you get the guy's name & ask if you can get a discount (don't ask exact amounts over the phone, just an agreement is fine - so you can remind him later).

    There's probably nothing wrong with the ammeter you're using, but maybe the way you are using it (more later). Are you using an analogue meter or a Digital Multimeter? Either is fine, just know how to use them correctly on this build, with the proper timed rests, fixed range, etc (as I said, more later!).

    The effect you are witnessing with the LED being permanently on, has to do more with the response of the human eye & is somewhat of a limitation with the LED method I didn't think to tell you about before. At a flash rate of about 90Hz (90+ cycles or flashes per second), the eye's persistence of vision will interpret the LED as being continuously lit, when in fact it is just flashing too fast for you to pick up on & is a known limitation of this method. You can work with it & work around it, but I like to do things thoroughly well, using the best equipment within reason, for the best price I can get & take the time to get the results I deserve.

    Let me know which way you want to go & I can walk you through things to save time & frustration.

  3. #13
    Senior Member Yaro1776's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maxgoenergy View Post
    Here is the latest. I have tried using the LED technique and(assuming I have wired this all right) on another smaller SSG build I have already made(The newer vertical is still in need of fixing) and it is not helping whatsoever. From 40mA to 140mA there seems to be no point where I can notice any indications for sweet tuned conditions. As I bit by bit turn the Potentiometer the wheel picks up speed in some points and the LED gradually gets to a point where it is permenatley on red. It seems to hit this point at 80mA. There is no part where the current goes a little and then the LED goes from somewhat flickering to a more spontaneous action and the real corresponds in action... It seems to be consistent with only a few periods where from 120mA to 150mA if I turn the Potentiometer very slowly then stop and repeat does it seem to pick some momentum up(though very little) for very small increases on the Ammeter. I am now trying a 2nd Ammeter to see if its an error.

    So at this moment I am considering the Laser RPM technique. Thoughts on this all so far??
    Max - a couple of comments on the technique here.
    The method Barrie mentions is very useful in determining the so called "sweet spot" bearing in mind that what you are really doing is calculating the firing frequency of the SSG transistors and then applying it to a calc with the primary amps. This does work, but you need to collect the data over a number of coil gaps. You will find that the best rpm numbers show up over a spread of coil gap with a similar calculated sweet spot value. As a side note some low rpm readings will be better than the high rpm reads using this method - just another SSG curveball.

    The rpm aspect is an integral part of determining one of the best setups. I prefer low cost/high tech bike wheel speedometers ($10-$12) since they are frequency based and give one a continuous read of the rpm, whereas the laser has to be manually activated whenever you need an rpm read. Relatively easy to calibrate and IMO worth the effort for the real time display and updates.

    BobZ's recommendation of using an LED is also favored, because again it gives you a visual in determining the sweet spot and fine tuning. Another tuning tool, if you will. Simple to setup the LED and use a thin strip of Reflective Tape attached to one spoke on the rim connection. Works well and is a great suggestion. Bear in mind that the normal frequency of the LED at high rpm may be at the limit of your visual perception but will show up on the reflective tape as a band whose width expands and contracts with resistance - note the band can expand into multiple spikes. Some play time is required to get the technique right.

    Many experimenters prefer to charge their batteries at the lower RPMs for more kick

    Back to the method Barrie mentioned. I do not believe that it can be used as a valid comparison across the board for the different builds out there due multiple factors as follows: 1) Each SSG build is different with various wheel bearings and SSG components, 2) All Ammeters are not created equal in accuracy, so the mix of various measurement devices and the ability of the experimenter will come into play with respect to the readings and subsequent calcs, 3) The size and condition of the batteries will come into play here. Undoubtedly there are other influences. So, a useful tool for sure, but there are inherent limitations.

    Finally, don't obsess about COP>1 - learn the machine and have fun,
    Yaro

  4. #14
    Very well said Yaro, I agree.

    The led is sort of supplemental to anything else you would like to use to monitor and it will only cost you a few bucks. I don't think some people are understanding the point of it but I know Yaro does because he just said it. You can see the width of the marker expand and contract and you can see how many fires per pass you are getting. Two spikes, three, one. The width tells you your on time, or current if you think on it that way. If you do a two led setup like I do with one in each direction you can understand even more about what is happening. For example you can see a certain point where the width of the reverse voltage and the width of the forward voltage is the same, go a bit more and your forward voltage is more than the reverse so it becomes wasteful. It is the equivalent of looking on an O-scope at the spike portion of the wave to see how high and then the length of the horizontal "H" portion.

    Now no matter what your method is keep in mind when you take an RPM reading and amp reading that will be only for that static moment in time. As your back end charges up your front end is loosing voltage and not pushing the same current. Your RPM will also increase on a charged back end. Honestly to me most of that matters very little, I look at the end results, did the back get fully charged, where is the front at on the end of the run.

    Use anything and everything you can if it helps you, no right or wrong way to observe.

  5. #15
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    Thanks for your input fellas,

    The bottom line is that a bloke living about 1000 miles from me is having difficulty tuning his builds & is asking for a bit of help based on the experiences of the rest of us who can show we have succeeded. He should be able to ask a specific question & get a specific answer or be given a way to get the answer he seeks. And because, in the original instruction set at least, it shows us how to arrive at a sweet spot and there are detailed files showing how others have succeeded, provided he puts in the time, the money & the effort, he's entitled to get a similar level of success if he follows along step by step & can think about it all later. I've used the original method many times & while it does take a long time, it is very clear in where the best of a number of sweet spots are, then if he wants, he can adjust the coil gap later & make other changes that I can suggest. If he walks the same path as I did, I can help him do this for himself, which has got to be better than turning a pot & measuring an input current & wondering what it's all supposed to be doing or if something is wrong (like a not-so-cheap ammeter).

    Magnets per minute per milliamp is a very useful method for comparison across builds, if the variables mentioned are kept as standard as possible & if he supplies me with enough other data I ask for as we go along, like unloaded wheel spin time (later), so I can make like comparisons on mine, after adjusting it to suit. Meter accuracy is pretty tight these days & if we get all the same bits, batteries, etc new from the same brand of shop here in Oz (where, let's face it, there's very little variety anyway). Once I know he has the right technique & comes up with a reasonable pattern of results, I can diagnose clearly & make suggestions for improvements until he's happy that he has done as good as he can or wants to. In the early stages, it's pretty important to get a good sweet spot, even if it takes a few days or a week to do so. Why? Because load testing for 20+ runs can take months! Even in my first 22 runs, I had COP>1 figures after each run in 53% of all runs at the end of each run. If others have achieved over-unity with this simple build & he puts in a similar effort as mentioned, taking into account the experiences of others along the way, he too should be able to achieve the satisfaction of success that his predecessors have enjoyed, if not better.

    I reckon he's up to the challenge

  6. #16
    Barrie we all appreciate your explanations of your method, thanks for spelling it out for us.

    As I said I am not trying to contradict you at all. In fact you could throw an led on the rig while also making your calculations. I think what max is looking to see is when the machine slips from a few spikes per pass to one. You have been doing this long enough to know how the amps draw will "shift" down as the RPM increases and you go from three to two per pass , then one. The LED just gives a visual.

    Max do you notices any "Shifting" on your machine as it spins up? You can hear it and observe it on the amp draw without the LEDs. As I said starting out this used to be much more noticable when running repulsion rather than attraction but you can notice in either.

    *EDIT*
    One other thought as I was reading the post. About the potentiometer, I have found that the wire wound variety work very well. I look for a 7 or 10 turn wire wound of 2 watt or so. They are not cheap but well worth the money. You get extremely precise adjustments and they hold up pretty well. You can burn them out if you push to much through them but on your setup I doubt it would happen. I have one on my 32 transistor 8 coiler with no issues.
    Last edited by BobZilla; 08-04-2015 at 05:13 AM.

  7. #17
    This is an Overall response.

    “Where you go from here depends on your end purpose for the SSG.”

    To make it perfectly clear to all, my intention IS to gain Over-Unity from this device. I and the rest of the world given the current situation, have not time to play around or “enjoy” things. Simply put one CANNOT afford to NOT obsess about the need for over-unity. Also, practically speaking there is no point in pursuing this unless there is a return. So out of the 2 choices, while 2 is ok, 1 is what I am solely interested in.

    On that note though I have seen a lot of SSG's constructed on this Forum especially with the good work of John Koorn. It seems(though please correct me if so) they have also made functioning devices with the Simple array and Potentiometer albeit with more extended circuitry for either multiple strands or multiple coils. So why cannot I achieve the same? What has been done different?

    “Another better explanation is that pots don't like being pulsed & as JB notes recently, there is a lot of pulsing on the SSG input as well as the output. “

    I always knew Potentiometers were not precise and it seems their impreciseness would lead to even missing the sweet tuning spot after thinking over this conversation, HOWEVER then why is it there in the SSG circuit as opposed to a Resistance wheel? Can we not achieve charging ability(that is the first focus) with the already setup?

    “ Are you using an analogue meter or a Digital Multimeter? “
    Using an Analogue Multimeter and/or a Analogue Ammeter.

    “The effect you are witnessing with the LED...”
    I do not know how this technique whereabouts I cannot even see the change in indicator it was built for?!

    “ You will find that the best rpm numbers show up over a spread of coil gap with a similar calculated sweet spot value”
    I have attempted different coil-magnet gaps such as 3mm, 4mm, 5mm and more with only very minor differences; that is there have been different current input for the same potentiometer settings. In this case for near to 1000 Ohms the Ammeter registers 20mA as opposed to a different gap distance registering 20mA at a much lower Resistance. HOWEVER, do I see at any point a sweet tuning characteristic or any unique occurences? None. I only see the machine gradually increasing and increasing more from a point at roughly above 140mA

    “ As a side note some low rpm readings will be better than the high rpm reads using this method - just another SSG curveball”
    But is this the Optimal point for the Motor? And how could we accommodate if higher rpm occurs that has the critical point?

    “ Many experimenters prefer to charge their batteries at the lower RPMs for more kick”
    Why is this the case? Does this not counter the idea of highest rpm for lowest draw? Does not the higher rpm induce sharper spike gradients for the battery?

    A further note on the LEDs- can someone please attach a picture of the LED test with marker? How to set it up. I have stuck a strip of white plastic on 2 magnets and point LED at this to nil result. I am not to sure at what distance along the wheel spoke it should be placed.

    ''The rpm aspect is an integral part of determining one of the best setups. I prefer low cost/high tech bike wheel speedometers ($10-$12) since they are frequency based and give one a continuous read of the rpm, whereas the laser has to be manually activated whenever you need an rpm read. Relatively easy to calibrate and IMO worth the effort for the real time display and updates''.

    Will be using this. I dont think Jaycar sells these but will find it...

    A question- For anyone of you 3 builds, what details(that is Potentiometer resistance, current, rpms) has your sweet tunes been?

    Also, I am well aware that different coil constructions WILL mean differing results HOWEVER, what I am seeking here is consistency in the method- that is I can like you did, follow some set of general detailed steps and reach a functioning SSG Motor that can charge 1 or at most 2 batteries of equal size. Once then this is achieved we could move onto further things and try the very intricate methods...

    “Now no matter what your method is keep in mind when you take an RPM reading and amp reading that will be only for that static moment in time. As your back end charges up your front end is loosing voltage and not pushing the same current. Your RPM will also increase on a charged back end”.

    While this may seem self-deceptive but could we not simply pick a portion of the test run and compare the first 15 mins of charge for each? And what starting voltages for the output should run begin with for a run ideally? I have always thought 12V flat was the way?

    “Honestly to me most of that matters very little, I look at the end results, did the back get fully charged, where is the front at on the end of the run. “

    The problem with this is that for each Potentiometer setting and gap distance we are talking a vast amount of tests which in order to be meaningful would need to be for the full duration and thus taking a very long time. So as opposed to this is there not distinguishable tests prior or during the first 5-10 mins of a run to indicate ABSOLUTELY if it is tuned or not? An important element in all Electromagnetic Physics is CONTROL within the Circuit or Apparatus for the Experiment or Run. The LED test is not helping(though a clear picture would clarify) and while the Potentiometer-Ammeter-Bikewheel Speedometer is useful I ask if there is other important testing measures.

    “Max do you notices any "Shifting" on your machine as it spins up? You can hear it and observe it on the amp draw without the LEDs”

    Define “Shifting” please in your next post. If you mean it gradually increases speed and torque then- It does but there is no peaks or sudden shifts rather subtle increases to everything step by step though there seems to be something minorly and possibly interesting at around 140mA.
    As for Wirewound I AM using a 1kOhm 3Watt Wirewound.
    This is it: http://primeretail.cloudaccess.net/?product=VRAW1K
    However I have also an older one with a taller turn knob.
    They do have 2W varieties: http://primeretail.cloudaccess.net/?product=VR5341K $30 is a joke! (So much for the promises of “Cheap from *****yland”!). Interestingly its one of the few devices Jaycar does not sell and I have found it only at Prime Electronics.

    Now as for Barrie's latest post in this thread- this is CORRECT! I might also add that I am seeking simply a means that will get met to a point with this device where I can charge 1-2 Batteries while maintaining the initial to some working capacity utilising the PRINCIPLES that Mr. John Bedini, the inventor has outlined either by his own direct instructions or the experience-based guidance of those here like Barrie or other Senior Contributors.
    Once I have with my own hands and work got a running ZPE overunity machine, which only has to charge 1 or 2 batteries of equal size to the Input at MOST- THEN the Base model is made to work towards greater things as Barrie mentions.

    “If he supplies me with enough other data I ask for as we go along” What do you want exactly?
    As for my interests here, I want to make NO mistake I wish to take this as far as I can possibly go. We must make a Energy Independent future and I am more then ready for this fascinating challenge.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Yaro1776's Avatar
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    Continuation of Data on Charge Battery performance

    Greetings Max,

    Impressed with the thoughtfulness and completeness of your response. One can see that you are serious about your SSG effort. I will answer a number of your queries to the best of my limited experience.

    Firstly, as background, I do have many years of experience in the testing field - not that this matters in the SSG world. Different animal! However, there are accepted methods for testing theories and hardware. In this instance (SSG) I do not subscribe to the easy 15 minute data method, in that this only gives you a short data look. The SSG characteristics are not a constant - the data reads change with the charge on the battery over time. I prefer running the charge tests from low voltage (12.1v) up to full charge of ~15.3v or so dependent on the charging rate of the machine configuration - this may take up to 8 or 9 hours dependent on battery size (normally use garden tractor LABs of 12 to 20 Ah for simplicity and cost).

    Your request for data has been noted and attached below is a sample data sheet from February2014 as an example.New Wheel Variable Gap Test 1 Board 1.pdf
    The data set parameters are straightforward and the results should be self explanatory. I have hundreds of hours of SSG operating notes and observations - priceless knowledge and experience. Not all of us have this time, for sure.

    Your goals for battery charging are admirable, however one does need to progress well beyond Mode 1 Operation. Over the past while many experimenters, including myself, have become frustrated by not being able to exceed 0.65 COP for the primary and charge battery output/input. Others claim much better results in specialized circumstances. That should not be a concern... The plain Jane SSG machine has many lessons to teach you if you are willing to observe and experiment. Many want to conquer the world of free energy with a 15 minute test, but few are willing to spend the 6-8 hours charging a battery and then discharging it while observing the process. Then repeating the process multiple times. Their choice!

    It is interesting to note that the scientists and experimenters from a 100 odd years ago and more did not have the sophisticated electronics and instruments that are commonly available now - so how did they do it? How did they discover the many laws and effects? This may be an essential question.

    The more practical issue - the LED test. BobZ is way better at explaining this, but I will give it a shot. First, I use a reflective tape on the base of the spoke. Ace Hardware or equivalent - the roll will last you for 20 years. I use a bright/super bright narrow beam Blue LED with resistor and hold it about 2-3" or so from the wheel rim/spoke with the lights off. LED is connected to one Trans and (-) terminal of primary ( I think that's right) and dim the lights. You have to move the LED around a bit to get the right distance and angle at the base of the wheel. One does have to experiment with this to get the feel. Similar to a first date, if you will. Sounds juvenile, but once you see how it works you do become convinced.

    Once you get the feel of this method you can physically see how the machine shifts from one to two spikes - seeing is believing and just looking at data is one sided.

    I believe that Branch Gordon in one of his threads presented a graph of SSG performance over a wide range of resistance values - very informative description of SSG behavior. Should be on Beginners 1 page.

    If one experiments at the smaller gaps (less than 0.250") and nominal resistances you will see a point where the SSG does not speed up beyond a certain RPM under 200 - you say "what is wrong with the machine?" Nada. Interesting zone to play in and very informative, perhaps more about the double spike zone later. Thanks to the simple LED for realizing that this exists.

    Too many questions to address here and many are inter-related. I do know that having witnessed several repeatable individual tests that are off the credibility scale, only to have the results not be repeatable several days later, have me hooked on this simple/complex toy.

    All the above may not be very helpful, but it keeps things interesting - keep plugging! see how time permits addressing more questions.

    Best to you,
    Yaro
    Last edited by Yaro1776; 08-12-2015 at 01:42 PM. Reason: insert data spreadsheet

  9. #19
    Max,
    I have been posting experiments for nearly 4 years now in this forum and have gone over in great detail most of my setups along with video and charts. Please take advantage of the knowledge that has been shared by reading through some or watching a few video's. The timing light is standard fair in just about every one of them. If you go farther back you will see some of my more crude builds which was also when I was learning about many of the things you are curious about now. Of course the farther back you go the less I understood at the time of writing but I have built and showed just about every variation of this machine and mode of operation for others to share in the experience. My current thread is in the intermediate section, full of videos.

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