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Thread: Vitamin C therapy

  1. #11
    Senior Member Tom C's Avatar
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  2. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom C View Post
    intravenous iv of pure buffered ascorbic acid in doses above 350,000 milligrams per day can be safely used and it will cure most cancers too many testimonies to not believe it. add Vit D and some trace minerals and your off to the races Tom C
    350,000 milligrams! Good gravy man! I'm not sure even I would be comfortable with that sort of dose. I think the largest I saw Klenner use was 180,000 mg/day. This needs to be put in some perspective, however. At 180 grams we are talking about what about 1/5 pound of vitamin C, and not ingested mainlined right into the veins. Normal saline (a standard isotonic to blood intravenous drip) has about 9 grams NaCl per liter. So to give 180 grams of NaCl as normal saline would require 180/9, 20 liters of IV fluid in a 24 hour period or 5 and 1/4 gallons. That would be taxing to healthy kidneys and maybe problematic. I certainly wouldn't want to try and eat 1/5 pound of salt in a day. The point being vitamin C is probably less toxic than salt.

    My previous emphasis was to get across the idea that you need to get into the 10s of grams range IV/day before the full medicinal effects of C are sometimes apparent. However, you will find a number of studies in the literature which demonstrate (whether from ignorance, bias or agenda I don't know) things along the lines of 250 mg vit C orally/day had no effect on common cold duration. While such a dose would likely be of some health value over years, if looking to employ vitamin C as a medicinal it is essentially a homeopathic dose.

    I am fairly certain I have mentioned this to you earlier but if not, regarding dose I am very excited about, taken orally, liposmomal C both because of its increased GI absorption and its likely bypassing of the normal vitamin C channels when delivering its vitamin C to the interior of a cell.

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom C View Post
    Thank you, I agree an excellent resource. Unless I'm mistaken I am a member there. I know I've corresponded with people involved with the journal. Curious they are not indexed as a peer reviewed journal isn't it? Hmmmm. I mean the idea of simply modifying the levels of vitamins, minerals and micronutrients which the body itself attempts to do in cases of stress or illness to restore health is so obvious and commonsensical what po$$ible reason could they're be for marginalizing such an approach? Hmmmm.

    Still, when you delve into it the peer-reviewed literature is often surprisingly open, it just has no effect on medical practice. What is that word when medical practice is divorced from science. Financial superstition might suffice I suppose.

    Look at what we saw from 6-8 months of research. Vitamin C in animal studies is shown to have protective effects against the toxicity of the chemotherapeutic agents doxirubicin and cisplatin and the antibiotic gentamicin. Also shown to mitigate the CNS toxicity of the food additive MSG. In more animal studies low levels are seen to be associated with development of cataracts and infusion of to blunt the toxicity of alcohol on the kidney. I'm likely skipping stuff even from my previous synopsis, but in three human studies we saw vitamin C effective in reducing fatigue, normalizing circulation parameters when people are given supplemental oxygen and the kicker, a randomized human trial showing 2 grams of C pre-op cut blood loss by 1/3 cut operation time by 1/3 and reduced hospital stay by 1/2 a day. That 1/2 cent worth of vitamin C would be so difficult to put in the pre-op bag of normal saline wouldn't it? This study goes along with an earlier human clinical trial which found 10 grams C pre-op cut operative mortality by (from memory) 47 percent. These peer-reviewed published clinical trials are what are supposed to guide medical practice. Sometimes they don't.

    There were of course numerous studies I didn't make note of, most along the lines of (to make things up) "Vitamin C2 channel not dependent on Calmodulin dependent percaptase polymorphisms" or "vitamin C not effective in relapsing remitting multiple sclerosis" (though not toxic and didn't worsen the disease). There was one study which found liver abnormalities in a subset of rats given oral vitamin C who were "stressed". I should likely dig out the study, not just the abstract, but have done this enough now to for the time being skip that one. 1) it sits in a sea of studies finding vitamin C protective against a host of liver irritants, 2) it was a subset analysis, could go into detail, but will just say if you cut a deck enough times you will get two aces in a row 3) what does "stressed" mean and 4) rats make their own vitamin C endogenously (in their liver) as part of their metabolism, this C was given as an oral dose, you wouldn't think something like that would be overlooked but it wasn't mentioned in the abstract and I've sen enough to guess it was overlooked either from ignorance or agenda. If it becomes a debate I'll dig out the study, and go through it with a fine tooth comb and be prepared to say, if necessary, yes, there is one negative study in the face of dozens of positive studies, but mea culpa I left it out of the synopsis.

    Was a little disappointed (though I took a peek at a search on "ascorbic acid" over the past year and found something) that there wasn't anything on vitamin C as an antiviral. It is a very powerful and broad spectrum anti-viral (there are none of these in the current medical armamentarium). It doesn't (I think?) strike me as an antioxidant effect, I have no idea how vitamin C might do this.

    That's it, unless you'd like me to shut up I'll do part two of the past year's research in the relatively near future. Wouldn't mind going back and discussing Klenner's work at some point either.

    Ciao,

    Paul
    Last edited by ZPDM; 05-11-2013 at 12:27 AM.

  4. #14
    Senior Member Tom C's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZPDM View Post
    350,000 milligrams! Good gravy man! I'm not sure even I would be comfortable with that sort of dose. I think the largest I saw Klenner use was 180,000 mg/day. This needs to be put in some perspective, however. At 180 grams we are talking about what about 1/5 pound of vitamin C, and not ingested mainlined right into the veins. Normal saline (a standard isotonic to blood intravenous drip) has about 9 grams NaCl per liter. So to give 180 grams of NaCl as normal saline would require 180/9, 20 liters of IV fluid in a 24 hour period or 5 and 1/4 gallons. That would be taxing to healthy kidneys and maybe problematic. I certainly wouldn't want to try and eat 1/5 pound of salt in a day. The point being vitamin C is probably less toxic than salt.

    My previous emphasis was to get across the idea that you need to get into the 10s of grams range IV/day before the full medicinal effects of C are sometimes apparent. However, you will find a number of studies in the literature which demonstrate (whether from ignorance, bias or agenda I don't know) things along the lines of 250 mg vit C orally/day had no effect on common cold duration. While such a dose would likely be of some health value over years, if looking to employ vitamin C as a medicinal it is essentially a homeopathic dose.

    I am fairly certain I have mentioned this to you earlier but if not, regarding dose I am very excited about, taken orally, liposmomal C both because of its increased GI absorption and its likely bypassing of the normal vitamin C channels when delivering its vitamin C to the interior of a cell.
    yes I saw the liposomal vitamin C info and did some research. right now it is fairly prohibitive cost wise compared to pure ascorbic acid. if there was a way to create the liposomal form at home I would do it. between vitamin C info and the Gerson therapy It is hard to imagine cancer having a chance in someones body. I take hi dose C as a normal part of my daily routine, in much higher doses than the RDA along with a whole range of other stuff. Tom C
    Last edited by Tom C; 05-11-2013 at 08:46 AM.


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  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom C View Post
    yes I saw the liposomal vitamin C info and did some research. right now it is fairly prohibitive cost wise compared to pure ascorbic acid. if there was a way to create the liposomal form at home I would do it. between vitamin C info and the Gerson therapy It is hard to imagine cancer having a chance in someones body. I take hi dose C as a normal part of my daily routine, in much higher doses than the RDA along with a whole range of other stuff. Tom C
    Please note that I do not recommend this at all, but for discussions sake I would say there are a few things on the internet on making liposomal C. Basically all you would need is pure ascorbic acid and some lecithin (soy lecithin is mentioned as easily available) you then need to greatly agitate the two. An ultrasonic jewelry cleaner is what people have used. The lecithin is a lipid bilayer, just like the cells of our body, after being agitated it will spontaneously reform into spheres and because of the agitation should have ascorbic acid inside the sphere. So theoretically then you have your drug and drug delivery vehicle. Not sure how you would know what you had made when finished and if you have good micelles or if they are in the proper size range but some people do claim success with "home brewing" liposomal C.

    I take maybe half a gram of liposomal C every couple of days when I remember, looking solely at absorption that might be equal to about a gram of ascorbic acid a day. However, if Dr. Thomas Levy, MD JD is correct about how well the liposome is delivering vitamin C to the inside of the cell, i.e. better than intravenous C, then that 1/2 gram liposomal every other day may possibly be equivalent to 5-10 grams ascorbic acid by mouth/day.

    A value I see in having some liposomal C on hand is just sort as a first aid kit. Judging from the literature, there are a number of instances, say one was exposed to some toxic fumes or had a bee sting or a touch of food poisoning where one might like a hefty dose of C, liposomal makes this possible.

    To bottom line this. Clinically IV vitamin C is perhaps ten times more effective than oral C, both because oral C is not fully absorbed from the GI tract and there is a limit to how much the gut will absorb putting a limit on blood stream levels and because once inside the blood stream vitamin C may only enter the cell through two vitamin C specific channels. Lipsomal C bypasses the gut absorption problem as it is the liposome micelles that are absorbed and it bypasses the cell entry issue as the liposome fuses directly with the cell membrane. Levy claims liposomal C is ten times more effective than intravenous C, i.e. 100 times more effective than oral C. I find that astonishing and even a bit difficult to believe, however, if liposomal is clinically even as effective as intravenous it is amazing.

    As an aside, did you see the video of the the gentleman from New Zealand who was dying from flu, they were actually going to pull the plug when his family convinced them to give 50 grams vit C IV/day and he suddenly started making a miraculous recovery. They almost needed a court order to continue the C, but he made a full recovery (with IV and later liposomal C) and if I recall the leukemia he was also diagnosed with at the time went into "spontaneous remission" shall we say.

    60 Min NZ Living Proof? Man Cured By Vitamin C [Video]
    Last edited by ZPDM; 05-16-2013 at 04:39 PM.

  6. #16

    Klenner, Vitamin C and Polio

    Tom,

    While I will try and get to the most recent vit C research soon I wanted to dive in real briefly to Klenner's work from the 40's. I don't think many people, physicians included as I well know, are aware of this information. I came into it shortly after I left FDA and started a medical blog which I thought was quite critical and skeptical of current practice. From this, a retired chemistry professor contacted me and to paraphrase (or perhaps this was all he said) said "Vitamin C cures everything 'google Klenner vitamin C'". So I took him up on it and that was maybe my first concrete data point that there is a large and deep rabbit hole.

    By way of background, not too long ago they didn't have to worry about swine flu and coronavirus, they had polio. A person-to-person transmissible virus which killed either through harm to the central nervous system or a flaccid paralysis which when severe enough prevented breathing. They didn't have respirators at that time so the "iron lung" was the supportive treatment. Polio cases for unclear reasons began spiking around 1910, it killed large numbers and maimed many more, president Franklin D. Roosevelt being one of the best known persons to be crippled by polio. FDR started the March of Dimes just before WW II to find a cure for polio. The Sabin and Salk vaccines from the early 1950s are generally credited with making polio a rare disease, though some would argue improved sanitation may have played a significant role. Be that as it may something else happened between the start of the March of Dimes and introduction of the polio vaccine, namely polio was cured, definitively, conventionally and reported through the appropriate channels.

    Fred Klenner was a general practitioner from North Carolina who began experimenting with high dose vitamin C as a treatment for a number of diseases. In July 1949 he reported in the peer reviewed Southern Medicine and Surgery Journal that he had cured 60 consecutive cases of polio in children in a row. Dr. Klenner: C as Polio Cure (1949). In these children his initial treatment was 1000 to 2000 mg vit C intramuscular or intravenous every 2-4 hours, the dose possibly being decreased by the patient's clinical response. In his words, "All patients were clinically well after 72 hours". Three patients subsequently relapsed and responded to further vitamin C treatment. He cured every single patient of (still-at least conventionally-) incurable polio, within five days!

    One would like to say, well this research was just overlooked, but how? This was in the midst of a terrifying epidemic, a Presidential initiative to cure the disease and 60 cures in a row were reported in the medical literature. To top it off he also made sure to present his findings in person to the American Medical Association. Didn't make a dime's worth of difference.

    Klenner's paper from 1949 Dr. Klenner: C as Polio Cure (1949) is well worth a look for health conscious individuals.
    Last edited by ZPDM; 05-17-2013 at 08:54 PM.

  7. #17

    Accidental find shows Vitamin C kills tuberculosis

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom C View Post
    intravenous iv of pure buffered ascorbic acid in doses above 350,000 milligrams per day can be safely used and it will cure most cancers too many testimonies to not believe it. add Vit D and some trace minerals and your off to the races Tom C


    Accidental find shows Vitamin C kills tuberculosis


    Agence France-Presse
    12:06 am | Wednesday, May 22nd, 2013




    0 New 0


    AFP file photo


    PARIS — Scientists said Tuesday they had managed to kill lab-grown tuberculosis (TB) bacteria with good old Vitamin C — an “unexpected” discovery they hope will lead to better, cheaper drugs.

    A team from Albert Einstein College of Medicine in New York made the accidental find while researching how TB bacteria become resistant to the TB drug isoniazid.

    The researchers added isoniazid and a “reducing agent” known as cysteine to the TB in a test tube, expecting the bacteria to develop drug resistance.

    Instead, the team “ended up killing off the culture”, according to the study’s senior author William Jacobs, who said the result was “totally unexpected.”

    Reducing agents chemically reduce other substances.

    The team then replaced the cysteine in the experiment with another reducing agent — Vitamin C.

    It, too, killed the bacteria.

    “I was in disbelief,” said Jacobs of the outcome published in the journal Nature Communications.

    “Even more surprisingly… when we left out the TB drug isoniazid and just had Vitamin C alone, we discovered that Vitamin C kills tuberculosis.”

    The team next tested the vitamin on drug resistant strains of TB, with the same outcome.

    In the lab tests, the bacteria never developed resistance to Vitamin C — “almost like the dream drug”, Jacobs said in a video released by the college.

    He stressed the effect had only been demonstrated in a test tube so far, and “we don’t know if it will work in humans,” or which dose might be useful.

    “But in fact before this study we wouldn’t have even thought about trying this study in humans.”

    In March, disease experts warned of a “very real” risk of an untreatable TB strain emerging as more and more people develop drug resistance.

    In 2011, there were believed to be some 12 million TB cases in total — 630,000 of them of the multi-drug resistant (MDR) variety which does not respond to the most potent drugs — isoniazid and rifampin.

    Extensively drug resistant (XDR) TB, does not respond to an even wider range of drugs.

    TB was declared a global health emergency by the World Health Organization (WHO) 20 years ago, but remains a leading cause of death by an infectious disease despite a 41-percent drop in the death rate from 1990 to 2011.

    In 2011, 8.7 million people fell ill with TB and 1.4 million died, said the WHO.

    Over 95 percent of TB deaths occur in low- and middle-income countries, and it is a leading killer of people with HIV.

    An airborne disease of the lungs, tuberculosis is usually treatable with a six-month course of antibiotics.

    Resistance to TB drugs develops when treatment fails to kill the bacterium that causes it — either because the patient fails to follow their prescribed dosages or the drug doesn’t work.

    It can also be contracted through rare forms of the disease that are directly transmissible from person to person.

    MDR TB in the United States can cost as much as $250,000 (200,000 euros) per patient to treat.

    XDR TB requires about two years of treatment with even more expensive drugs that cause side-effects and offer no guarantee of a cure.

    The authors of the new study urged further research into the potential uses of Vitamin C in TB treatment, stressing it was “inexpensive, widely available and very safe to use.”

    “This would be a great study to consider because we have strains of tuberculosis that we don’t have drugs for, and I know in the laboratory that we can kill those strains with Vitamin C,” said Jacobs.

  8. #18
    Totoalas,

    They are shocked, yes shocked! Now I could understand that reaction maybe the day after it was found. Sure even if tuberculosis is your research topic that you are paid to be expert in, one can't know everything. But given the effect of vitamin C and a couple days one might take a glance at the literature. There are one or two hundred studies documenting the same, oh so unexpected, finding. When was this first seen, well we can go back to 1933, "THE RELATION OF VITAMIN C DEFICIENCY TO INTESTINAL TUBERCULOSIS IN THE GUINEA PIG." "Thirty-seven of these were maintained on a diet partially deficient in vitamin C; twenty-six developed ulcerative intestinal tuberculosis. 3. In the remaining thirty-five animals whose diet was supplemented by an adequate amount of vitamin C only two developed tuberculous ulcers in the intestines. ... In our opinion, an adequate supply of vitamin C usually protects the guinea pig against ulcerative intestinal tuberculosis.

    How about findings similar to those of the researchers. (Koch's bacillus is TB)
    1950 "[Bactericidal action for Koch's bacilli of massive doses of vitamin C; comparison of its action on a certain number of other microbes]."
    1950 [Alleged modifications in man to the bactericidal power of blood serum and of urine due to the utilization of massive doses of vitamin C; bactericidal power for Koch's bacilli on one hand, for a certain number of other bacteria on the other hand].
    1950 [Bactericidal effect in vitro and in vivo of vitamin C on Koch's bacilli].
    1952 Antibiotic action of vitamin C on Koch's bacillus].
    1952 [The necessity of vitamin C overload in tuberculosis].
    1954 [Effect of vitamin C on the development of the Koch bacillus].
    1955 [Further observations on the effects of vitamin C on the growth of Koch bacillus culture].
    1955 [Further study of the effect of vitamin C on the development of Koch bacilli in culture].
    1961 [The bacteriocidal and bacteriostatic action in vitro of large doses of vitamin C on Koch bacilli].

    There are others. In fact there was one from just the past six months showing it inhibited growth of mycobacterium avium complex. (TB in birds though also seen in AIDS patients). I will take the position, which may well be correct that the researchers were familiar with the literature and were just trying to gently reintroduce the finding to polite conversation. However, to call it unexpected is either ignorant or offensive. It was also already given to hundreds of patients as an oral dose, generally with a modest though sometimes equivocal benefit. From what we now know of bypassing the limits imposed by gut absorption on vitamin C blood levels with intravenous vitamin C and the results in other bacterial and viral illnesses seen with high blood levels of vitamin C one can at least extrapolate to how vitamin C might treat tuberculosis with sufficient dosage. I am not a paid expert in TB, though at least I glanced at the literature about what I was talking on, and TB is a mean, mean, nasty bug that can live in the white blood cells sent to kill it, all that said, my guess would be sufficient IV C is likely as good, probably considerably better, than the current front line three drug combination. It is also far, far less toxic, (there is a reason they check liver enzymes on people being treated for TB). It would also cost pennies per day.

    As an aside, high levels of vitamin D have also been correlated with diminished tuberculosis virulence, possibly explaining the modest benefit of high altitude tuberculosis sanitariums of years past.

    They were correct about TB still killing over a million people per year.

    And I think to myself ... what a wonderful world.
    Last edited by ZPDM; 05-22-2013 at 02:09 AM.

  9. #19
    Senior Member Tom C's Avatar
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    I cannot stress enough DAILY therapeutic dosing of vitamin C 5 to 10 thousand milligrams take it with breakfast with a glass of water.... get it in your system and circulating.

    Tom C


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  10. #20
    Solavei
    Im using DMSO to push VIT C direct to the the bloodstream in 1 minute ..... patient can taste the vit C and can smell from her breath the VITamins B6 and B12 for the bones as well .

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