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  • 3 Battery Setup

    I started a thread on this topic at EF, but I thought I might also post it here, since the original idea for this came from something John posted over 20 years ago. That schematic is attached.


    The circuit called for two charged batteries, one discharged battery and a load. I chose to use a 12 volt DC motor as the load. We had a battery that would neither take, nor hold a charge, and decided to use it for our third battery, because we only HAD the three batteries. When we initially put the system together and threw the switch, nothing happened. About fifteen minutes later the motor suddenly started up. The voltage on the bad battery would suddenly jump to 24 volts. It would go down to about 18 volts, and then the motor would slowly start and begin to run, speeding up gradually. The voltage would continue to drop down to around nine volts, at which time the motor would suddenly shut off and the voltage would immediately jump back to 24 volts and the cycle would repeat. I NEVER switched the position of the dead battery as Mr. Bedini shows in the schematic.

    To try and get the system to keep from shutting off, I ASSUMED I needed to keep the battery in the third position from becoming charged, so I began to hook loads to it. I was able to run incredible loads for weeks without the primaries losing charge. It worked, and then it didn't.

    I have been working with this setup for four years now, and lately with a couple friends. We are seeing SOMETHING, and it appears we are able to get power out of the system for short periods of time and as long as we let the batteries rest. They appear to completely recover. Those are the ONLY claims we are making at this point. It is NOT producing the kind of power I got out of my original system, but it is doing some things we believe are worth investigating. Hence this post.

    We have learned that AGM batteries are essential in the third position. Take a brushed DC motor and connect one wire to the positive of battery 1. Connect the negative of battery 1 to the positive of battery 2. Connect the neg of battery 2 to the negative AGM battery. One that doesn't want to hold more than a couple volts. You need a LOAD ON THE MOTOR for this to work. My recent, SUCCESSFUL build is using a UFO modified Razor scooter motor. I haven't tried to use a standard motor with this setup yet because when you have something that works, DON'T FIX IT. (Although my original setup used a standard brushed DC motor!!!)

    When you flip the switch the very first time, the motor SHOULD NOT START immediately. (If it does, you do not have a battery that will work in the third position) I have been told that the reason the motor does not start is because of the potential difference between the “stack” of two in series and the single battery, and that it takes a few minutes for that potential to change, as the battery in the third position charges. I have also been told that it doesn't start because there is not enough juice in the third battery to complete a circuit. I don't agree with either of these possible explanations. Read on for why, though I may of course be dead WRONG. In a few minutes the motor will start running. If it doesn't, the battery you have is so bad, it is beyond hope for this project. I wouldn’t wait more than 15 or 20 minutes. IF, HOWEVER, YOU CAN SPIN THE MOTOR BY HAND AND THE MOTOR STARTS, YOU CAN USE THIS BATTERY.

    If you have an analogue meter on battery 3, you should see the voltage jump (when the switch is thrown) to 24+ volts. It will go slowly down to around 18 volts, and THEN the motor will start. The voltage will go down to around 12 or 13 volts, and stabilize. IF the voltage continues to go down to around 9 volts, and the motor shuts off, the voltage jumps back up to 24 volts and the cycle repeats, you ABSOLUTELY have a winner.

    This experiment is to make sure you have the RIGHT kind of battery. At this point you need to stop and let your primary batteries sit and rest overnight, recharging them if they don't recover. You also need to drain battery three by connecting a light to it and leaving it overnight. THERE are REASONS for doing this, so DO IT!!

    AFTER DOING ALL THAT AND LETTING THE SYSTEM REST OVERNIGHT, reconnect everything. Flip the switch to start the system and you will find that this time the motor starts IMMEDIATELY. Shut it off, add a small load like an auto dome light or even an auto headlight...something to keep battery three from charging. I only had you start it so you could ponder the following.

    So…..if the delay in starting you saw yesterday were because of a difference in potential between the set of two batteries in series and the single battery, when could that potential possibly be GREATER than when you have just charged the two main batteries to FULL CHARGE while at the same time, DISCHARGING the bad battery all night long with a bulb on it????

    If the delay yesterday was because there was not enough JUICE in the bad battery, how could there possibly be LESS juice than there is right now, when you have drained the bad battery ALL NIGHT LONG. It should have NO juice. None. So you should be having to put some juice into the battery for the motor to start. It should take LONGER to start than it did yesterday, and yet the motor started immediately.

    It is my belief that we are talking about some kind of magnetic alignment that takes place in a bad battery and continues as long as there is a load on the battery, and also lasts for a couple days after the load is removed. If you can let it sit for a couple days, hook it back into the system, flip the switch, and once again the motor will not start immediately.

    One other experiment. With a bad battery in position 3, I flipped the switch and the motor did not start. I grabbed the motor shaft and gave it a spin. The motor turned slowly because I had spun it, but it continued to slowly spin at the same rate, gradually picking up speed until it reached regular running speed. It made me wonder if the motor was not acting AS A GENERATOR at the same time it was acting as a motor.

    Once you have the two batteries fully charged, the bad battery drained, and a small load connected between the terminals on battery 3, you are ready for the experimenting to really begin.

    You must MATCH the load on the motor with a load on battery 3. I use a bunch of small bulbs with switches to connect each one to battery three. Flip a switch to turn on one of these lights and the motor will immediately speed up. Let it run for five minutes. If the loads are matched, the motor will suddenly speed up AGAIN. If it does, make sure you KNOW how much load you had on battery three when this happened, so you don’t waste time next time. When you are in the zone, the speed and torque will be awesome. You can continue to add loads to battery three, but add a load, wait five minutes, add a load, wait five minutes. At some point the load will cause the motor to drop out of the "zone" Now you have two choices. Reduce the load on battery 3, or INCREASE the load on the motor to get it back in the zone.

    I have done no runs longer than a couple hours.
    What I have done is given you all the shortcuts and information I have to help you be successful. I make no promises and share no results. We need people to test this and help expand on what we think and what we know. If you do not have the patience to run the tests over long periods of time and watch the batteries to see how they recover, you will run them down, and the system will not work for you.

    UFO motor/ 3BGS - YouTube
    UFO/ 3BGS test 2 - YouTube
    3BGS Test 3 - YouTube

    Mr. Bedini, I hope you have the time to comment on this. It is your baby. I just happened to get extremely lucky with some combination I still do NOT understand. You may believe i am full of crap, but I know what I saw, and I was lucky enough to get the thing working a few days ago just like the original device. If you think I am full of crap, I'm sorry, because your opinions and ideas on this would be much appreciated. Regardless, I will continue working on it, because once you have seen what is possible, nobody can convince you that you haven't seen it.

    The setup I had working JUST LIKE THE ORIGINAL (which means charging the primaries while there is a load on the motor and a load on battery 3) a few days ago is no longer working as well as it was, and I am not sure why. When I took my motor apart, one of the four brushes that make up the power input circuit was not making contact and two of the 16 sections on the armature (which by coincidence were nearly 180 degrees from each other) were not making contact. This is a UFO modified motor, so it has two commutators, and the two sections on the armature were "dead" which COULD mean it was acting more like a pulse motor. I do NOT know when these problems occurred. So any one of these three "problems" may have been why the motor was so successful in the videos I show here, OR SOME COMBINATION OF THESE PROBLEMS, or it could have been the timing. Those are the variables. All three of the problems are now fixed, and it still isn't working like it was.

    I hope this is of interest and not too far off topic for this forum, since it IS based on something Mr. Bedini published.

    Dave Bowling
    Attached Files
    Last edited by David Bowling; 11-17-2012, 08:46 AM.

  • #2
    Hi David,

    Thought I would mess with this a bit. I have a really dead 12v motorcycle battery that I hooked up as illustrated in stage #4. I used a 12v very small DC motor from Radio Shack as the load. At first there was absolutely no action. Even after a couple hours the dead batt had remained above 25v and even hand spinning the motor resulted in no rotation. After having the system hooked up a few times for several hours at a time over a couple of days, the dead battery finally reduced to around 24.5v and I gave the motor a spin. It started! It now surges and slows erratically, after stopping occasionally at first. When I first put the test leads across the the motor, it would read about 4v. Now it reads over 6v. The dead battery would drop initially to about 19v and now is around 18v while the system is hooked up and the motor is running. If I isolate the dead battery the voltage is around 1.6v standing. This dead batt started out at .547v, and had been sitting in a motorcycle outdoors for about 11 years. Very interesting behavior.

    -Woody
    "It's not a mutiny if the commander is leading it!" - Wally Schirra, Commander Apollo 7

    Comment


    • #3
      A quick update. After running several hours today, the dead battery when isolated has about .56v, the voltage across the running, DC brushed 12v motor is 11.98v and the voltage across the dead battery with it all hooked up and the motor running is 12.56v. Pretty weird. The dead battery is not charging at all, but all these voltages are continuing to change through the day. Hmmm......

      -Woody
      "It's not a mutiny if the commander is leading it!" - Wally Schirra, Commander Apollo 7

      Comment


      • #4
        Well, after running all day I have some things to note: The system responds to the demand put on it, but slowly. I have an LED and a 12v incandescent automotive bulb hooked up in parallel with the motor. When a new load is added, the motor slows way down, and may stop and start for some time. After a period time which is related to the amount of new load added, the unit eventually re-establishes itself at a higher RPM and runs smoothly again. After running with the 12v auto bulb for a while, I noticed that the top 1/2 inch of the dead battery from the water line down was quite warm. It became progressively cooler, till at the bottom it was about room temp. The dead battery is actually getting more dead as the process continues. I just measured it at .124v isolated. It is however, handling more load as I slowly add load and let it adjust to it.

        I noticed that the voltage measured across the leads of the running motor + the voltage of the dead battery measured as the system is hooked up and motor running, is about equal to the combined voltages of the 2 good batteries. Also, when I hook up the system again after not running for a period of time, the motor will start after a short delay of a few seconds. At first, it took a couple of days of it being hooked up like it is now before the motor began to run.

        Ok, 'nuf of that for today. Bedtime.

        -Woody
        "It's not a mutiny if the commander is leading it!" - Wally Schirra, Commander Apollo 7

        Comment


        • #5
          What is an AWG battery? I have heard of wire sizes awg- but what is an AWG battery? Thanks Al Sollid
          Last edited by aetherman; 09-25-2012, 07:24 PM. Reason: spelling

          Comment


          • #6
            aetherman,

            I apologize. That should read AGM battery. I have no idea why I typed AWG. I also apologize for not checking back here. It seemed like nobody was interested in this thread, which is a real shame considering what so many people who have tried it have seen.

            Woody, are you seeing that after your runs the primary batteries recover? Lose? Gain? We have been able to pull 12 volts at 12 amps out of that setup for about 30 minutes at a time and still have the primaries recover. When you get a run where the primaries are climbing you can pull out as much as you want. It can be endless. My initial setup ran for a couple weeks and gave me all the power I wanted. So maybe you will get lucky. If you do, document the heck out of everything so we can figure this thing out.

            I will be working on my setup again beginning the first of next week. I have been busy on some other builds, so haven't been messing with this, but I will never give up on it. Once you have seen the thing really work, you're hooked.

            Dave
            Last edited by David Bowling; 09-27-2012, 07:17 AM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by David Bowling View Post
              aetherman,

              I apologize. That should read AGM battery. I have no idea why I typed AWG. I also apologize for not checking back here. It seemed like nobody was interested in this thread, which is a real shame considering what so many people who have tried it have seen.

              Woody, are you seeing that after your runs the primary batteries recover? Lose? Gain? We have been able to pull 12 volts at 12 amps out of that setup for about 30 minutes at a time and still have the primaries recover. When you get a run where the primaries are climbing you can pull out as much as you want. It can be endless. My initial setup ran for a couple weeks and gave me all the power I wanted. So maybe you will get lucky. If you do, document the heck out of everything so we can figure this thing out.

              I will be working on my setup again beginning the first of next week. I have been busy on some other builds, so haven't been messing with this, but I will never give up on it. Once you have seen the thing really work, you're hooked.

              Dave
              Dave,

              I read every post of every thread everyday....... I just have so many irons in the fire right now that this particular experiment is not something I can do. I continue to watch, when you figure out how to generate useful power and use this setup, I am sure the thread will light up!!

              Tom C


              experimental Kits, chargers and solar trackers

              Comment


              • #8
                TomC,
                I brought this idea to the forums hoping lots and lots of folks would try it, get excited, and help to find the solution. I thought that by working together as a group we could solve the problem. But that hasn't happened. Every group either doesn't get rolling (like this one) or dies out from lack of interest like the ones on OU and EF. But that's ok, because I don't need the groups to help me anymore. :-)

                Dave

                Comment


                • #9
                  David, I'm not done with this setup yet and it is still mounted on the board. Just got too much on my plate and more on my shoulders now. We met on EF before.

                  Cheers
                  Vtech

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    David Thanks for the reply. I used three AAA nicads and a small Radio Shack motor(3V) and the circuit works . The motor is stock- no rewinding of the armature for two independent windings with another set of brushes, and it still works. The only problem is that battery #3 overcharges. So I will try it again with two batterys in parallel for the number three position. The same circuit also seems to work with AA nicads. I submit that this circuit works so well because of the carbon in the brushes. There is an experiment by Professor Vallee on the Naudin website which demonstrates the power generated by arcing (burning) carbon. The E.Gray tube also burns carbon. I am hooked. Al Sollid
                    Last edited by aetherman; 09-27-2012, 06:03 PM. Reason: spelling

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      aetherman,
                      You could be right about the brushes. My question would be, why does it STOP working when I am still able to run the motor, since the brushes haven't worn out yet. It's nice to hear it works with nicads. But what do you mean by "it works"? Are you able to run loads off the motor and battery three without drawing down on your primaries? Just put a load on battery three and it won't charge. That's the real test. If you put a load on battery three and the motor speeds up. (or it should) Then put a load on the motor and the charging of battery three should increase. If you have that going on, you are golden. You keep adding to one then the other until you reach the limits of your little motor. Then get a BIGGER motor!


                      blackchisel, I remember! LOL
                      Dave
                      Last edited by David Bowling; 09-27-2012, 07:08 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by David Bowling View Post
                        aetherman,

                        I apologize. That should read AGM battery. I have no idea why I typed AWG. I also apologize for not checking back here. It seemed like nobody was interested in this thread, which is a real shame considering what so many people who have tried it have seen.

                        Woody, are you seeing that after your runs the primary batteries recover? Lose? Gain? We have been able to pull 12 volts at 12 amps out of that setup for about 30 minutes at a time and still have the primaries recover. When you get a run where the primaries are climbing you can pull out as much as you want. It can be endless. My initial setup ran for a couple weeks and gave me all the power I wanted. So maybe you will get lucky. If you do, document the heck out of everything so we can figure this thing out.

                        I will be working on my setup again beginning the first of next week. I have been busy on some other builds, so haven't been messing with this, but I will never give up on it. Once you have seen the thing really work, you're hooked.

                        Dave

                        Hi David,

                        I'm using flooded lead acid motorcycle batteries on my setup. They are all about 9ah. The dead battery is REALLY gonzo, dead, toast, whatever other adjective you might want to add. I have been out of town for a few days so the testing has been on hold till I can get home again. I will say that the batteries recovered pretty well on shorter runs, but when I just decided to let it run for hours and hours to let it adjust to a new load, they did run down. This is a really interesting line of research, and so simple to do too! I fried a couple coils in my 6 pole monopole, so until I rebuild that, this a great avenue to pursue. Thanks for starting the thread, and bringing this to us!

                        -Woody
                        "It's not a mutiny if the commander is leading it!" - Wally Schirra, Commander Apollo 7

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Woody,
                          You can't run this setup (without some modifications) for more than about 30 minutes without it affecting your primaries IN MOST CASES. Once in a while someone will get the perfect circumstances (battery, motor, whatever) and then it will run for days. Glad it is interesting for you. Hopefully it's going to get a LOT MORE interesting over the next few months.

                          If you look at the thread on EF at http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...system-48.html it will give you some ideas on things people have tried, and some of them have worked.
                          Dave
                          Last edited by David Bowling; 09-27-2012, 10:14 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            @All,
                            These diagrams come about from the original Tesla Switch this is something that we used to find potential charge. for example you can move charges with the same polarity.
                            We could never get anybody to study the results. My German Friend told a story of charging single dry cell batteries by rubbing his Keys across them. I showed him the circuits your working with here, he said it worked every time with a mechanical switch. It had something to do with the sparking, or a single pulse. You could call this a spike of voltage. He worked for NASA and the information vanished one day So I'm sure they got the system working and he never was seen again. People have seen some strange effects from this arrangement providing the batteries were rotating electronically at 10 Hz. when the machine was stopped all batteries were charged to full. The load was set by a single resistor or a 12 volt car tail light.
                            John Bedini
                            My homepage: http://johnbedini.net

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              John,
                              Thanks for that information. I know you're a busy guy and I appreciate you taking the time to comment here. We're seeing all kinds of positive results from this and haven't even tried the rotation yet, so that's good to know. We'll keep plugging away at it.

                              Dave

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