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Thread: Question about highest RPM + lowest amp draw

  1. #1
    Senior Member jelloir's Avatar
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    Question about highest RPM + lowest amp draw

    Forgetting COP for a moment... When running the SSG at highest RPM with lowest amp draw (more resistance), the charge is slower. When running a slower RPM with higher draw (less resistance) the charge is quicker. Is the latter because the transistors stay on longer and therefore the width (or current) of each spike is bigger?

    Does the charge battery on an SSG running in mode 1 (radiant) see ONLY radiant spikes or is it a combination of the run battery and the spike?

    It's puzzled me for a while that I can get my wheel absolutely flying with more resistance but the charge rate drops off, obviously the draw does as well and you get more mechanical output.

    if you we primarily interested in the charge rate and not interested in the mechanical output are you really better going for highest RPM with lowest draw or is somewhere in between better?

    Ok so that was more like 4 questions sorry :P

    Thanks,

    James

  2. #2
    Hi James. I will chime in a little but it's all opinion and speculation after all.

    Forgetting COP for a moment... When running the SSG at highest RPM with lowest amp draw (more resistance), the charge is slower. When running a slower RPM with higher draw (less resistance) the charge is quicker. Is the latter because the transistors stay on longer and therefore the width (or current) of each spike is bigger?
    Yes and no. A few points to consider:
    The spike actually only appears as the natural current is collapsing,,,or at switch off for the transistor to say it another way,,, so it's current is not on longer but because the natural current was flowing longer ( slower rpm, longer magnet psss etc) but the amplitude of the voltage is higher depending on the tuning of the machine. So that is one aspect to the question but it more leads into the second question,,,

    Does the charge battery on an SSG running in mode 1 (radiant) see ONLY radiant spikes or is it a combination of the run battery and the spike?
    If you are running fastest rpm for smallest draw chances you are just feeding it spikes where the other way will induce more current but not directly from the run circuit. They are in opposite polarity when you really look at it so that forward current is simply running the coil and through that tranny to loop back on the primary. The spikes run the other way even in time really but i mean polarity at the moment in relation to the coil forward current. The spikes are the OFF and run other way BUT we can get induction like a transformer which is hopping around and causing more current. Iknow I'm probably not making a lot of sense because I find it hard to explain how I see this stuff in my head. But back to the way you worded the question "does it see only radiant spikes" well what I mean to say is that depends on how it's tuned because you can go more pure spike or you can induce current so there is not an absolute yes or no to that question.

    if you we primarily interested in the charge rate and not interested in the mechanical output are you really better going for highest RPM with lowest draw or is somewhere in between better?
    So if you followed what I was trying to say in the last section it leads into this one. Now with what I said in mind you could charge with a little more incidental current or tune for more pure spike right so the question is which for charging rate. Another trick question ;-) ,,, let me explain,,,, I have found that the longer lower draw more pure spike charging is the real deal and you will see those magical properties of mode one charging come through but if you turn the resistance down a bit and let it charge a little quickier it comes at a cost, not as good of a charge. The current sort of kills the effects so the more you try to hurry the charge by inducing the growl the more it is like a normal charge and not radiant. If you really want to see what I mean take two of your batteries and charge one the pure spike way only a few times ,, and the other with the hurried up tuning and you will notice some big differences in the performance. I will los guarantee the first thing you will notice is the pure one will sit and stay at much higher voltage and then if you do some basic discharge testing you will see better load performance too.

    Anyway I am not trying to sound like a know it all, just trying to keep a dialog going here.

  3. #3
    Senior Member jelloir's Avatar
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    Very helpful as usual Bob,

    Let me see if I'm following... The more current you induce in the coil by keeping the transistor on longer the more current you will typically see on the output. A question on that... Lets say that the radiant didn't exist, The voltage on the output would never be higher than the charge battery though correct? I don't have a scope but is this the bottom part of the "h" wave?

    So current is induced on the power windings which the charge battery sees, the circuit switches off and the radiant potential appears hitting the charge battery terminals saying "yo up here dude" and the charge battery increases its potential.

    However, if you are pushing current (lower resistance, lower rpm) the charge battery will soak it up and charge faster but it's the combined effect of the radiant potential and increased current that causes it to charge at all and charge faster... HOWEVER, increased current can deafen the effectiveness of the radiant? In other words... the battery would not charge at all if it wasn't for the radiant potential across the charge battery terminals even though this induced current and the radiant aren't hitting the charge battery at the same time?

    Is it going: current - potential - current - potential - current - potential. and increases to the current sections mean faster charge rate at the expense of mechanical, radiant effectiveness and run battery draw.

    I am trying to use a couple of examples hoping to get my point across so apologies if it's a bit hard to comprehend.

    One thing is certain... I need to buy a scope.
    Last edited by jelloir; 01-09-2015 at 08:14 AM.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by jelloir View Post
    Very helpful as usual Bob,

    Let me see if I'm following... The more current you induce in the coil by keeping the transistor on longer the more current you will typically see on the output. A question on that... Lets say that the radiant didn't exist, The voltage on the output would never be higher than the charge battery though correct? I don't have a scope but is this the bottom part of the "h" wave?

    So current is induced on the power windings which the charge battery sees, the circuit switches off and the radiant potential appears hitting the charge battery terminals saying "yo up here dude" and the charge battery increases its potential.

    However, if you are pushing current (lower resistance, lower rpm) the charge battery will soak it up and charge faster but it's the combined effect of the radiant potential and increased current that causes it to charge at all and charge faster... HOWEVER, increased current can deafen the effectiveness of the radiant? In other words... the battery would not charge at all if it wasn't for the radiant potential across the charge battery terminals even though this induced current and the radiant aren't hitting the charge battery at the same time?

    Is it going: current - potential - current - potential - current - potential. and increases to the current sections mean faster charge rate at the expense of mechanical, radiant effectiveness and run battery draw.

    I am trying to use a couple of examples hoping to get my point across so apologies if it's a bit hard to comprehend.

    One thing is certain... I need to buy a scope.
    Hi jellior,

    According to the Beginners SG handbook, the spike is a longitudinal wave of pure high potential that pushes the ions in the primary battery back to the recharge position. This radiant spike flows backwards through the system down one wire (the primary positve wire) and it appears before primary coil negative energy collapse that charges the secondary battery.

    -Dave Wing

  5. #5
    Hi James,
    I have to run to work so this will be a short response. It is a difficult thing to both describe and understand and then on toop of it we are talking about stuff that most conventional thinkers would say is impossible right Lol ,, makes these things difficult to discuss.

    Anyway going back to the nature of your original post I would say in simple terms that yes you have figured out the finer tuning and many never even notice so your dead on, you just have questions about the how and whys of what you have seen on your bench.

    I will say that if you run mode one it is best to do it with "pure" spikes as I refered to it meaning do not hurry it up by dropping the resistance. It will take longer but consume less on the draw so that is a wash,, the real benifet will be seen in the quality of the charge. Like I said run an experiment using the two tunings and you tell me if you do not see the difference in the quality of the charge, not the charge curve or the time it takes , i mean the way that battery will perform for you after it's charged.

    The other way where we speed things up a little will charge them too and a bit faster but the charge is not the same quality. Both will work but we are talking about a fine lie here in mode one charging which I am really happy to see you asking about because many people never even notice what you are clearly seeing.

  6. #6
    James perhaps this will help.
    From Mr. Bedini's Patent #US79990110


    FIG. 1 is a schematic view of a circuit 20 according to an embodiment of the invention. The circuit 20 can be used to recharge a battery 22, and can also be used to repair and/or rejuvenate a battery by improving the proper removal or deposit of material from/on an electrode of the battery. The circuit 20 includes a supply node 24 that can be coupled to a source 26 of power having a voltage. The circuit 20 also includes a voltage generator 28 that generates a magnetic field when the power from the source 26 energizes the generator 28, and that generates a voltage from the magnetic field's collapse when the generator 28 is de-energized. The circuit 20 also includes an output node 30 that provides access to the voltage generated by the voltage generator 28, and a switch 32 to allow one to control the flow of power from the source 26 to the generator 28 to energize or de-energize the generator 28.

    In operation, the circuit 20 generates a voltage spike—a high voltage condition lasting for a short period of time—from the collapse of a magnetic field that is generated by the voltage generator 28. Because the magnetic field collapses quickly, the voltage spike forms quickly, and the voltage in the spike is high. When the magnetic field is generated and then collapses, repeatedly, the circuit 20 generates a series of voltage spikes. Each voltage spike is directed to the output node 30 where it is available for use by the battery 22 or some other device. When the circuit 20 generates a series of voltage spikes, the voltage available at the output node 30 pulsates. Thus, the circuit 20 can apply sharp, high-voltage spikes to recharge the battery 22.

    The voltage generator 28 generates the magnetic field from current flowing through the generator 28. When the voltage generator 28 is coupled to the power source 26 and the switch 32 is closed, the voltage of the source's power causes current to flow through the generator 28 and toward ground 34, thus energizing the generator 28. To collapse the magnetic field generated by the generator 28, one opens the switch 32 to stop the flow of current through the generator 28, thus de-energizing the generator 28.

    Because the voltage spikes are brief moments of high voltage, the spikes can be used to provide a battery 22 pulses of substantial current to recharge the battery 22 without generating excessive heat in the batteries anode and cathode plates. Current delivered to the battery in the form of these high energy impulses can improve the proper removal or deposit of material from/on an electrode of the battery. In addition, because the voltage of the voltage spikes is typically greater than the voltage of the power source 26, the circuit 20 can be used to recharge a battery 22 having a remaining voltage or a fully charged voltage that is greater than the voltage of the power provided by the source 26.
    Fig1.JPG

    I built this circuit exactly, accept I used a micro controller in place of the manual switch. One of the best boards I have EVER built, want to learn about mode one,,,, try it!

  7. #7
    Senior Member jelloir's Avatar
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    Thanks Bob, Will put on the todo list! I still struggle to control my patience when studying this tech, and one thing I'm slowly getting to grips with is being patient when running tests as you can easily miss something really important. Thanks again and your new build looks killer!

  8. #8
    Thanks James, I will be posting an update soon on he new machine. It's running now ;-)

    Hey besides all of the techno details,, going back to your original question. In reality I will usually find the spot where it is top RPM,, and then crank just a little less resistance so that it gets a little of that extra push. It also depends on the size of your target battery or batteries. For larger ones you may have to loosen it a bit more even because all batteries need "SOME" current to get charging. There are reasons but I wanted to keep it simple just to follow up what you were really asking I think.

  9. #9
    Senior Member jelloir's Avatar
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    Back after some reading about inductive "kickback". This and various other pages I read around the net have helped me understand and set in stone a few more things about the SSG.

    http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_3/chpt_3/9.html

    I'm hoping I had a little epiphany so I'm basically making some statements and would love any feedback.

    The importance of magnet strength and spacing

    If your coil discharge is "interrupted" by the next magnet arriving and inducing a magnetic field in the coil before the coil completely discharges then you lose out. This has also made me think more about the current induced in the coil and the speed of the wheel. Magnet strength does not mean using stronger magnets. Using a weaker magnet may have better results. If you have a nicely wound coil then I figure you probably need to do less work to induce current in it. I tried using smaller ferrite magnets with a closer air gap which provided higher rpm for less amp draw and can move up to single spike much easier.

    A good battery is critical for decent COP

    Your told with an SSG the "battery charges itself" but I think I'm starting to understand fundamentally what this means... at least I hope I am... Nature supplies an in-flow of energy in the battery itself as a by-product of the spike hitting the battery terminals, the spike is "indirectly" causing the battery to charge. The coil discharge and battery charge are 2 distinct processes. Nature wants everything to settle at zero. Just as inductive kickback happens in the coil so does a kickback in the battery which manifests as the battery charging. So like a well wound coil produces a good spike, a good quality battery produces a good charge and will better allow this energy in-flow.

    Unfortunately picking a good battery would appear to be the hard part so I have not been able to prove this as I cannot afford to spend gobs of money on new batteries.

    James

  10. #10
    Hi James,
    I don't want to monopolize the conversation here, starting to sound much like a big mouth ;-)

    Your first statement is pretty much dead on in my opinion. And as you said already you can compensate for some factors by playing with your gap. Also as Mr Bedini shows you can use a fan as a governor. My approach on the new machine is not a fan but a separate gen wheel but the principal is the same, resistance.

    On the second point, I would not put it in the same way as you have but it is close enough. Don't worry about brand new fancy batteries. Yes we would all love to have them but you can get old ones working fantastic with a little ,,, ok a lot,,, of work. I still say mode one is best for restoration.


    I truly appreciate your participation around here, keep up the good work!

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