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Thread: Bedini's Linear Current Amplifier

  1. #11
    Thanks Nityesh for spending the time on this. I am working my way through your design. i tried what i posted and it just pulls my system down till my wheel stops I see where your going. I see your dumping the extra load not used from the 30 zener through transistor. Why not just the Zener?

  2. #12
    Wow! I have been banging my head against a wall trying to figure out what is going on in this circuit. You guys obviously have a lot more electronic design experience than me. These schematics are an amazing start. You guys rock! I learned alot from Lman...he also pointed me to the 160Amp solar tracker thread. John points out a few details about whats going on there too

  3. #13
    Originally Posted by Ecancanvas

    Thanks Nityesh for spending the time on this. I am working my way through your design. i tried what i posted and it just pulls my system down till my wheel stops I see where your going. I see your dumping the extra load not used from the 30 zener through transistor. Why not just the Zener?
    In my first circuit I did that, only to find my zener gets damaged, So I designed the "clamping voltage reference circuit" to handle more current. Also you want to make extra measures that this zener does not go open circuit. If this happens the voltage from the beta multiplier will raise to 80V, the neon on the ssg will flash. Speaking from experience. I put a clipping LED in the circuit so I can see when it is clamping, this happens when there is no load, when the battery is charged, and if the battery is very high impedance. When the pre-filter cap (the 15,000uF one), is not getting dumped the voltage will try and raise above 30V. anything above 30V gets dumped into the clamping circuit. To protect the linear amp regulator from overvoltage.

    Just like the neons protect the ssg transistors, this clamping circuit protects, the linear amp regulator.

    Linear circuits don't like 80V, comparators/op-amps a maximum of 30V and about a maximum voltage drop of about 40V between the input and output, for the 3 terminal regulators.
    Last edited by Nityesh Schnaderbeck; 09-19-2014 at 09:05 AM.

  4. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Joster View Post
    Wow! I have been banging my head against a wall trying to figure out what is going on in this circuit. You guys obviously have a lot more electronic design experience than me. These schematics are an amazing start. You guys rock! I learned alot from Lman...he also pointed me to the 160Amp solar tracker thread. John points out a few details about whats going on there too
    Yes it it very difficult when you have holes in your knowledge, I have lots of those, lol.

    Servo amps, is a key, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Servo_drive

    In the case of the "Linear amp regulator" the charging the battery is like driving the motor, and the speed sensor, is like the impedance sensing circuits in the linear amp regulator. Just like being able to control a motor to a certain speed. The linear amplifier regulator can charge the battery to a certain impedance, set by a command voltage.

    YesCommand voltage, voltage references, comparators/op-amps, summing amps, drive circuits, sensors or sensing circuits, feedback amps, and performance tuning. lol and all that good stuff.
    Last edited by Nityesh Schnaderbeck; 09-19-2014 at 08:53 AM.

  5. #15
    linear amp regulator.pdf

    I will explain how this circuit works, starting from C1. C1 (15000uF) is the pre-filter. R2,R1,ZD1,Q3,Q4,LED1 and C2 is the clamping and voltage reference circuit, and provides a zener controlled, voltage reference to the Beta Multiplier. R3,C3,Q1 and Q2 is the beta multiplier, which is a second filtering stage, and protects the linear circuit from radiant spikes. C4 just takes out the ripple a little bit more. Reg1,Reg2,RV1,IC1A,R4,LED2,LED1,R5,RV2,R7 and ZD2 is a plus and minus adjustable voltage regulator, that is controlled by the feedback signal, via pin 2 of IC1A. RV1 Controls the plus and minus offset with respect to op-amp ground. R7,ZD2 and RV2 provide an adjustable voltage reference from 0V up to 16V.
    RV2 sets the impedance the battery charges to (Voltage adjustment for battery).
    IC1A compares the difference between the adjusted voltage reference set by RV2 and the
    feedback signal. And sends the difference to the control the regulators (Reg1 and Reg2).

    Between R10,C5 and R11,C6 is op-amp ground.

    IC1B is a summing amp and a difference amp. Pin5 of IC1B is the summing point for resistors R6,R9,R16 and R13. The summing point (Pin5 of IC1B) is compared the summing point of pin6. Pin6 is the summing point of R8 and R12. R14 limits the current going into Q5. R15 is the current sensing resistor, it turns current flowing through it into a small voltage drop that represents the current flowing into the battery. The voltage drop across R15 is amplified by IC2A, and fed into the summing point pin5 of IC1B. R13 is the feedback resistor, this looks at the voltage of the battery. The voltage signal from R13 is mixed with the current signal from R16. The mix of the voltage signal with the current signal gives a voltage that represents the impedance. This impedance feedback signal is fed into the Beta multiplier (through R6), to IC1A which controls Reg1 and Reg2. R1 and R6 make sure the output of the beta multiplier is held to double battery voltage, but an average of double voltage because of C3 at the base of the beta multiplier (Q1 and Q2 is the beta multiplier)

    Q5 and Q6 drives the charging to the battery controlled from IC1B.

    The output of the beta multiplier (the emitter of Q1) is double battery voltage, but an average of double voltage, because of C3 at the base of the beta multiplier (base of Q2), which is filtering out any high frequency jitter, from the impedance feedback signal.

    The output of the beta multiplier is smooth double battery voltage Lets say 30V because the battery is 15V. Between (op-amp ground) R10,C5 and R11,C6 the voltage is divided into half 15V. But this is a smooth 15V with no jitter. IC1B is always trying to zero the battery voltage with respect to op-amp ground and driving/switching q5 and q6 to do it.

    Imagine a graph of a charging battery, that is being pulse charged, if you zoom in you will see some jitter, high frequency jitter. Ok so you have also monitored the battery through a filter (Resister capacitor filter) The second graph through this filter will have no high frequency jitter. Take the difference between the filtered charging graph and the unfiltered charging graph and you get left with the battery jitter, which represents what the ions in the battery are doing.
    Last edited by Nityesh Schnaderbeck; 09-21-2014 at 07:46 AM.

  6. #16
    Nityesh,
    I'm bread-boarding up your circuit and noticed that on IC2 that the ground rail is listed as pin 8 and voltage rail is listed as pin 4. is this how you intended or are they reversed. I also substituted 2SA1264n with NTE37 and 2SC2335 with NTE379 Because NTE supplier local. Parts should not cause issue.
    Thanks again

  7. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Ecancanvas View Post
    Nityesh,
    I'm bread-boarding up your circuit and noticed that on IC2 that the ground rail is listed as pin 8 and voltage rail is listed as pin 4. is this how you intended or are they reversed. I also substituted 2SA1264n with NTE37 and 2SC2335 with NTE379 Because NTE supplier local. Parts should not cause issue.
    Thanks again
    The 2SC2335 is not critical, because it is only used for clamping down the excessive voltage of the pre-filter cap, so it does not raise above 30V, you can use almost any NPN as long as it can handle the voltage and current. The 2SC2335 was from a computer power supply, and I had lots of them.

    The NTE37 will work fine, Remember to have on a heat sink, Q1, and Q2 can be "2 x MJL21194", "2 x 2n3055", or "2 x MJ15024"

    Have Q1,Q2,Q3,Q4 and Q6 on a heat sink with insulators.

    If you can afford it, it doesn't hurt to get extra transistors for spare parts, some times accidents happen with circuit prototyping.

    Yes IC2 pin 4 and 8 are the wrong way, my mistake, thankyou for pointing that out.
    I will correct this as soon as I can.

    Thankyou for your time on this circuit.

    For your interest , if you like, I can post the previous circuits, I tried. The circuit you have is the 3rd design.


    Pin 4 is GND, Pin8 Is Vcc, positive.

    The lm358 have 2 op-amps in one package, lm358.png

    In the case of this circuit IC2 has an unused op-amp, so the the input pins need to be tied to vcc (pin8) or Negative (pin4). So just connect pins 4,5 and 6 together and this will tie both inputs of the unused op-amp in IC2 to negative (pin4).

    Between R10,C5 and R11,C6 is "op-amp ground" This divides the voltage from the output of the beta multiplier, in half. Because there are other resistors, that are connected to op-amp ground, this can either pull up or pull down the voltage, from the halfway value. So you can get over half of under half.

    So replace R11 for a 10K pot and adjust until the "op-amp ground" voltage is correct.

    From my experiment of this, I found R11 needs to be 5K.

    Change these, C3 = 220uf, C4 = 47uF

    RV2 can be anything between 10K and 100K, this is only to provide an adjustable voltage command, for pin3 of IC1A. Since the op amp has high impedance input there is not really any current, just voltage. So RV1 can be high impedance, but not too high otherwise, unwanted noise can enter pin3 of IC1A.

    The gain of IC2 will very most likely need to be, scaled correctly to interface to the summing point at pin5 of IC1B. So You can adjust the gain, by connecting a resistor between pin1 and pin2 of IC2B. This will reduce the gain by adding negative feedback as well as stabilizing the output of IC2A. I am not sure what this value should be, you can put a 100K adjustable resistor between pin1 and pin2 of IC2B and tune. Then replace for a fixed resistor.

    R13 is the voltage feedback resistor, and will need to be tuned, or calculated.

    R3 and R6 values need to balance the base of the beta multiplier, and hold the voltage to double the battery voltage (base of Q2).

    If you connect a diode with the anode on the collector of Q6 and the cathode on the output of the beta multiplier (emitter of Q1). The battery can also power the linear circuits.

    You can use a 30V power supply, to test the circuit and tune/balance the voltages of the resistor network. With a small 100ma incandescent light in place of the battery, for a dummy load.

    Before you test on your ssg.

    Here is another thing, if you have had any of you neons flashing purple on your ssg because you left the back end open, say good bye to your matched transistors and COP, my machines would not be the same after lots of purple/white flash, care for your ssg transistors and your coil.

    On my MEG the dummy load went open circuit, and 2000V later, "6 months with a leaky coil".

    So what I am saying is maybe the coils can also go leaky if left open circuit on the ssg, like with my MEG experiment.

    I hope this helps.
    Last edited by Nityesh Schnaderbeck; 09-21-2014 at 01:23 PM.

  8. #18
    Modified Nityesh Schematic rev 2.pdf
    I have never used 2 regulators in this way. I have used 2 regulators to up the amp capability but not working in the negative. are pins 1 an 2 on reg 2 correct. (i changed them around and circuit would not work) so i am assuming the way you have it is correct. Listed on your schematic it shows -12v but when i measure it its at 2.5 v. i have looked online trying to find explanation of the regulator set up but have had no luck. my breadboard circuit will charge a battery really fast but it is not shutting the charging cycle off when 15v is reached (no matter where i set the pots) I need to trace out my board to make sure everything hooked correctly. I realize all our Bedini systems are a little different so the changes i do might not effect others systems in the same way. i listed the changes i have made to date on schematic listed as rev 2. Nityesh, your recommendation of a hooking up a 30v power supply is the way to go, will need to get one next payday my current one only gos up to 15v
    Fun Stuff

  9. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Ecancanvas View Post
    Modified Nityesh Schematic rev 2.pdf
    I have never used 2 regulators in this way. I have used 2 regulators to up the amp capability but not working in the negative. are pins 1 an 2 on reg 2 correct. (i changed them around and circuit would not work) so i am assuming the way you have it is correct. Listed on your schematic it shows -12v but when i measure it its at 2.5 v. i have looked online trying to find explanation of the regulator set up but have had no luck. my breadboard circuit will charge a battery really fast but it is not shutting the charging cycle off when 15v is reached (no matter where i set the pots) I need to trace out my board to make sure everything hooked correctly. I realize all our Bedini systems are a little different so the changes i do might not effect others systems in the same way. i listed the changes i have made to date on schematic listed as rev 2. Nityesh, your recommendation of a hooking up a 30v power supply is the way to go, will need to get one next payday my current one only gos up to 15v
    Fun Stuff
    I see another one of my mistakes, I put the power source of R7 at the output of the positive regulator, Pin3, instead connect to the output of the beta multiplier, (emitter of Q1).

    The voltage reference circuit R7,RV2 and ZD2 should really, get it's power source from the beta multiplier. As for the zener your 17V one is fine since, the voltage source to pin3,IC1A is adjustable anyway.

    R2 and LED1 need to be connected in parallel, otherwise you will fry your led, and it will go open circuit and the beta multiplier will raise to 80V, and the cap dump at 80V, can vaporize stuff.

    As for the regulators, the LM7812 and LM7912 the pin-outs are different.

    The Regulator Pinouts on the circuit are correct.

    You said it charges fast, how much current does it draw, from the power source.
    Does it charge faster than your other design or slower. And the wheel speed, how is that.

    The fact it charges fast is a big success. As for the voltage regulation. A small problem compared to your success.

    reg.jpeg
    Last edited by Nityesh Schnaderbeck; 09-22-2014 at 06:32 AM.

  10. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Nityesh Schnaderbeck View Post
    I see another one of my mistakes, I put the power source of R7 at the output of the positive regulator, Pin3, instead connect to the output of the beta multiplier, (emitter of Q1).

    The voltage reference circuit R7,RV2 and ZD2 should really, get it's power source from the beta multiplier. As for the zener your 17V one is fine since, the voltage source to pin3,IC1A is adjustable anyway.

    R2 and LED1 need to be connected in parallel, otherwise you will fry your led, and it will go open circuit and the beta multiplier will raise to 80V, and the cap dump at 80V, can vaporize stuff.
    Nityesh,

    I cannot thank you enough for your work here. I did not ever think I would see a schematic like this that actually makes replicating this circuit possible. I am on holidys next week so I am thinking of building this circuit up to test. Wondering if you have protoyped it yet or if anyone else has and how it is preforming. Is it able to supply 2 Amps? I could also layout a pcb design for all of us here o make building it easier

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