Design for Windpower per John's DVD Number 25

[Botster]

Dave, my intent was and is not to cause strife. My intent was to speak up on Bill's behalf, and on behalf of common courtesy. That does not constitute attempting to cause strife. On the contrary, those who engage in discourtesy are the ones paving the way for strife.

And just to be clear, I was also not intending to accuse anyone of being malicious. I'm sure they just wanted to talk about what they wanted to talk about with no offense intended. And they did so whether it was on-topic or not. The hijacking was just a collateral effect of that.

There is no doubt there is good information in this thread. But since the SSG is not a generator, "how to build a wind generator" would not be on-topic. Plain and simple.

And it could be that you never heard Bill complain because he simply decided to quietly abandon his thread; no sense kicking a dead horse.

I had hoped that the responses might be more amenable toward Bill. But so far, they have not been. At least yours was more civil, and made more sense.

Now, this discussion is not on-topic either. So I'll just bow out now. Carry on.

[min2oly]

Hey botster,
not so fast - stick with it. If you really understand dvd 25 and you also understand the original post that started this thread. You will see that Bill was a bit sideways on his thinking about what JB was showing in that DVD. I say this because his original drawing had (kind of) two ideas. one was an "SSG generator" that he conceived on his own - grant it, he had no idea this would be what we are mostly talking about throughout this thread. The other was what we all know to be a wind powered trigger for an "on the side" SSG, which is what DVD 25 is all about.

So actually the good people here have gone down both paths. The reading here not only helps with Bill's original post but goes far beyond as well.

Bill, if you still have any questions on your design, I invite you to ask. Did you ever do as John K suggested back on page one?

Botster, I'm sure you are well intended. Please read everywhere and ask questions as you see fit.
Kind Regards,
Patrick

Dave, my intent was and is not to cause strife. My intent was to speak up on Bill's behalf, and on behalf of common courtesy. That does not constitute attempting to cause strife. On the contrary, those who engage in discourtesy are the ones paving the way for strife.

And just to be clear, I was also not intending to accuse anyone of being malicious. I'm sure they just wanted to talk about what they wanted to talk about with no offense intended. And they did so whether it was on-topic or not. The hijacking was just a collateral effect of that.

There is no doubt there is good information in this thread. But since the SSG is not a generator, "how to build a wind generator" would not be on-topic. Plain and simple.

And it could be that you never heard Bill complain because he simply decided to quietly abandon his thread; no sense kicking a dead horse.

I had hoped that the responses might be more amenable toward Bill. But so far, they have not been. At least yours was more civil, and made more sense.

Now, this discussion is not on-topic either. So I'll just bow out now. Carry on.

[Kiril_Kirilov]

thread

post #15

Erfinder,

you bring a lot to the table, much appreciated...
http://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/...cillators.html

Tom C

post #19

Hello All,
I want to thank everyone for their comments. John, the reason I have 16 trigger coils in the design is that I envision having several rows of batteries being charged at the same time. I would be able to discharge a row or rows, based on power requirements. I initially plan on using 1 trigger coil and add additional coils as needed. Remember, I am a newbie at this and if this concept is not doable, please let me know. I live close enough to the Gulf of Mexico and we have wind almost all of the time, so the idea of a wind generator is appealing.
Again, thanks for all of the input,
Bill

post #52

Guys!

This is a fun topic and I don't know how you went from Johns wind generator to switched reluctance motors, but this is great....

post #61

Bill,

Please forgive me for hijacking your thread. I'll stop now and let you get back on track.

Regards

post #72

erfinder,
I think more than a few of us including myself have expressed an interest in what you are saying and sharing of your thoughts. Please continue, many do not post. Posting runs the risk of ANYONE posting back :-)
Please continue to share.
If you go dark - in private - we may as well all build a bunker.
Keep it light, but keep it coming...
Patrick A.

post #74

Yes erfinder, please continue the discussion. I don't personally fully understand what you are doing to get the results shown in the video, but I am not ignoring you. I am eager to learn more. I don't understand what JP is doing yet either, but also hope he will continue to post.

John K.

post #136

o.k. you have said that JB has shown us how to hook up these coils, I assume it is in DVD 25, the switching circuit I think I understand. if it is not dvd 25 which one is it?


Tom C

Simple PWM driving and N channel Mosfet. EFTV 23. You are shown how to connect, but not why the method is significant....that's for you to discover on your own. I feel I have.

Regards

I apologize for being impolite, but the quotes above show clear, that the main contributors on the thread, including the owner, express greater interest to the shared by erfinder research and ideas. And petty speaking the number of the dvd in the thread could be changed from 25 to 23

Who would need the wind-power if one could accomplish possibly energy installation not dependent on external factors such as wind, solar or sources that tomorrow could be legally regulated. Imagine concession on sunshine when people install enough solar panels.

I'm zealous supported of this thread, as I think that this is one of the most important threads in the forum for the last years. One should read very carefully to realize that.

Kindest regards,

Kiril

[Kiril_Kirilov]

Set Up 2

Hi All,
the set up was changed (again ) in order to have best possibility to move and observe the coils and their position related to rotor magnets (while staring into oscilloscope ).
The console was made horizontal and thin plexiglass was put on top of the rotor. (even though some proximity to magnets was lost, it is incomparable better to see what you are doing, while playing with the positions of the coils)

Here some pictures of the new set up:



Rotor was spun again externally in order to set up positions of the coils (I think it is a very good idea to have external mover, while you tune the system's coils)

The waves, we get show that, not only 1st and 3rd, but also 5th harmonic is observable. (I think this is better than you have only 1st and 3rd )

All three harmonics were with exponentially decreasing magnitudes (1.27324*sin(x)+0.41667*sin(3x)+0.25466*sin(5x)) and in phase, exactly as it should be if they were part of square wave ?



See them:



live also:

I really have to drive that thing already ... with:

Hall trigger > Monostable Multivibrator > Dual Mosfet switch - One for the Power Coil, Other (in phase) for the Control Winding

again

Kindest regards,
Kiril

[Kiril_Kirilov]

progress

Hi,
the setup was developed further with 2nd phase and (hall>mono 555>) mosfet switches were made and put into place:


It runs Although very slow (between 50 and 100RPM) (resembles the Idling Magneto )

The 2 (so far) phases are connected in parallel (their work coils)
The control winding were connected as 3 groups (1 & 1', 2 & 2', 3 & 3' - see the drawing). Made it that way, as I've tested whether connecting them together wouldn't ruin the wave-shape of the CHORD. Observed that in this particular connection in 3 groups (with equal relative positions to the magnets) could be the one of the possibilities.

As a whole, parallel connection of the power winding distorted a bit the wave-shape, but i think its due to a not 100% equality of the coils (there's slight differences in wire diameters between the coils, as too many test coils were made, and I went over of 0.27...had to put .25 for control windings etc...). See it on the scope (passively spun by external mover - looks like sub-harmonic, longer than 2 phase-groups appeared ):





The wave-shape on the working section when self-running is as following:



When control winding-sections were added 1 by 1 the shape of the oscillation started to decay in amplitude and in time (see upper picture in the left upper corner - yellow and red lines on the green-screen-oscillo-picture).

I think, probably done it wrong in trying to self-power the 3- mosfet switches of the 3 control-winding groups from the coils itself (see lower left corner in the upper picture)... Even thou the voltage for the gate of each of the irfp 640 was derived through 2K+Zener Diode (few mA), it seems like steals the energy from the oscillation....

Will try to power the control Mosfets with 3 external to the machine voltages...

Power windings were connected to 50 Volts, and running thus slow the machine consumed ~ 150-200 mA (pulsating arrow on the PSU-Ammeter)

At this consumption the irfp260P switch was well-warmed (most hot). The ripples of the oscillations at the switch-off moment can be seen in the lower-right cornet on the upper pucture. It is without parameter switching (have to rework it, as now with random manual commutations much bigger oscillations appear). I think that these HV spikes go through the internal MOSFEt-diode and make it too hot

Even with this setup through the FWBR connected in parallel to power winding, on the 5000uF/400V capacitor bank there's 143Volts! (blew like a popcorn even at 80Volts on the bank 10W halogen lamp )

again and kindest regards,

Kiril

[blackchisel97]

At this consumption the irfp260P switch was well-warmed (most hot). The ripples of the oscillations at the switch-off moment can be seen in the lower-right cornet on the upper pucture. It is without parameter switching (have to rework it, as now with random manual commutations much bigger oscillations appear). I think that these HV spikes go through the internal MOSFEt-diode and make it too hot

Kiril

Hi Kiril,

Thank you for sharing your work Did you think about replacing optocouplers with mosfet drivers for better triggering? You may be right with internal diode leaking but I was also thinking of internal drain-source resistance. IRF260 has 40mOhm which is decent but wondering if lower value would make a difference here.

Very nice work and I'm following with great interest.

Regards
V

[aln]

"As a whole, parallel connection of the power winding distorted a bit the wave-shape, but i think its due to a not 100% equality of the coils (there's slight differences in wire diameters between the coils, as too many test coils were made, and I went over of 0.27...had to put .25 for control windings etc...). " Kiril

So much in this thread I do not understand yet, takes me long time to digest and learn electronic language.
Thoughts on coil harmonics-
Do we need exactly the same coils to resonate chords? My frined who tunes piano's and I were talking about harmonic partials this morning, and with the same size string/wire divided in half you will get a 2:1 raito called the 2nd partial (octave). Many who play guitar have tuned with this harmonic's as well. The 3rd partial is 1/3 the length of the root (also known as the 1st partial-original string plucked and vibrating as a whole) this creates a ratio of 2:3 over the octave (a 5th above the octave). The 4th partial is 1/4 of the root and is a 4th above the 5th. Sounds confusing when I try to explain it.
What I am suggesting is: (remember I do not know anything just trying to help if I can) that possibly these harmonics can even be accomplished solely with wire length, which I believe Erfinder has said. Maybe this is all common knowledge to you all. Sorry if it is a distraction. Aln

Here is an image from wikipedia

[Dave Wing]

Hi all

Here are some materials that have helped my understanding a little more...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourier_transform

And... Starts @ 8:27 of the video link below

http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/videos/31.html


Dave Wing

[Dave Wing]

Hi Dave,
I have to say, this is one SWEET conversion.
Kind Regards,
Patrick

Hi Patrick,

Thanks for your nice comment about the conversion. The large wheel allows the small coils that came with the machine to simply be switched 180 degrees, so the coils mount on the outside of the machine, with 12 magnets on the rotor.

Dave Wing

[Dave Wing]

More important than Fourier, more important than the apparatus you are contemplating on building or are building, is comprehending how coils must communicate! Nothing is more important than this, it is the foundation of "my" research, the immovable rock on which what I am sharing with you is supported! Knowing whats happening inside the coil puts you in a position where you know which wiring method brings you to your goal. Coils should arranged to accommodate the dual nature of the induced, and self-induced currents and potentials. Before we can "accurately" use Fourier to assist us in comprehending and mapping the wave forms, we must have a properly communicating network, and this network is being driven in the proper manner.

Forget chords, now is not the time, we will cross that bridge when we get there.


Regards

erfinder,

Are you talking about a certain center tap arrangement? Possibly something like this? That would seem to accommodate the dual nature of induced, self induced currents and potentials.


Dave Wing

[dennis foyil]

Thank you erfinder! For continuing to teach about "the mechanism." As a low skill builder I am definitely a student of "the art." This thread has become quite central in my thinking, even a little revolutionary. It has brought together strategic parallels. Thank you again. When I do get a chance to test my understanding I plan to start with two matched window coils , in series. Pinching each in the middle until it makes an infinity symbol, then overlapping an end of each to form the center coil of the three coil arrangement. the outer coil poles would then be lapped with the outer coil poles of the next coil set. coil to coil communication. Any way, Thanks, Dennis

[Kiril_Kirilov]

Kiril,

Excellent work. You are progressing faster and faster.

Referring to the drawing that has been an inspiration on your efforts, in a previous post I recommended that you drop the coil in the middle and get the device running. I don't think you understood the gravity of this recommendation. I shared that image with the three coils and magnets because that's where I started. After studying that drawing and other material it became clear to me that magnets and electromagnets are three pole devices! The image allows one to more or less come to that same conclusion. When you look at the image, prior to considering the output waveform, it is necessary to see what polarity is being induced in the coil and when. The image emphasizes the significance of inducing both on the approach, and receding, simultaneously. Presently, the books cover the two sequentially. I have found that inducing at both points has a powerful positive influence on the negative effects associated with Lenz's Law, the problem has been misinterpretation of the relationship between inducing and induced.

Many in the know understood/understand the significance of this. They all incorporated an offset in at least one of their designs.

Muller
Adams
JB (Watson machine)

In light of the above stated, the third coil introduces another set of three poles, and opens the door to generating chords. Fight the temptation for jumping ahead, I understand how this appears to be the way to go, however, it's not. Referring to your connections, you still haven't recognized the need for "proper coil to coil communication". The foundation is based on pairs, not triplets, odd numbers cannot generate odd number sequence. Your machine running slowly is a testament to the fact that you should look at the coil connections closer. Your motor should be moving, and you should be getting energy back at times that you normally shouldn't, you should be seeing 1:1 electrical input to recovery when the device is operating at idle.

Something else that I must add here is that the bulk of your presentation has been using various things that I have shared and putting them all together in a manner that I have not shared. The results have been mixed. You misunderstand me when I mention parameter variation. What I am sharing is basic parameter variation, not the complex stuff with trifilars or transformers which is best. You have to get the basics solid on the bench first, the fundamental effects, then you can advance towards multifilar coils or transformers. The parameter variation isn't just about the change in inductance and capacitance. It's also about establishing a link between the induced and self induced potentials and currents, in addition to this its about driving the system in a saturated state and a non saturated state, this gives rise to Ferroresonance, a CEMF neutralizing mechanism, which has to be kept in check. I use this kind of resonance in concert with parallel and series LC resonance to drive my system beyond the limits set by LC resonance.

I don't put much effort in spelling things out for people because I truly believe that you have to come to these conclusions on your own! Also, there is way too much going on and I am not qualified to tell you what to do on anything. We must learn how to look at our devices and their constituent parts, and the relationships between all.

What are you hoping to accomplish?

Regards

Hi erfinder and all,
although I have few more images from my last set-up, I prefer to delay them a little bit and to answer (to me also) few questions, and to propose one idea in order to clarify theoretically things, and to go forward with more common language

First,about my hops...

I hope to accomplish machine, with close to 1 (if not higher) electrical input to output ratio of and to have mechanical output redundant.

This could be further developed and implemented, either as little household energy source (if mechanical is used to generate useful electrical energy), or as a car engine, if mechanical is used and electrical input/outputs are further developed in a way to have either indefinite or highly extended mileage with given energy source (batteries, invertors...) .

I thing what you are sharing with us is a technology, which would allow me/us to accomplish it.
I hope, I explained at least a bit what I imagine from the endless possible implementations which sparkle in my mind...

About your recommendation for dropping second coil... I was dashing my mind on this, but the second set up was already in place, and I preferred to show it ( as you said, probably too emotional jumps ) ...

I dropped the second coils from the groups, and succeeded to run the 3-rd 3-phase set-up to a higher RPM speed. I'll post few details/pictures later...

But as I've been thinking (with the thinking cap ) on what you've said about the true polarity of the coils, "that magnets and electromagnets are three pole devices" and ... "the dual nature of the induced, and self-induced currents and potentials"... and how "Nature gives us opposition, we must comprehend and copy, follow her lead" ...

So as i see/think that there's still misunderstanding on the quoted phenomena, I made following illustration, hoping that it could help us clear our understanding.

Can we start with this ?

I'll elaborate it further with second coil, and interactions between them in case it helps us understand...

Kindest regards,
Kiril

[fredsavage]

just logged in for the first time, been reading a bunch for a few months.... Erfinder any chance you could just explain what you mean by 3 poles in a magnet? I see a north and south and a "zero" which is the center of the magnet.
Fred

[Kiril_Kirilov]

I have presented a demonstration where the electrical input and recovery are 1:1.
There is room for error in the calculation, and a more exacting measurement will be taken in the future to squash any and all doubt.
The results of this do not need to be published, it is enough for you to see what I have done, and try if it is your desire, attempt to come to the same or similar conclusions on your bench.
It is not difficult to accomplish unity, why none are trying is a mystery to me.
It's been my experience that the way to accomplishing unity is in NOT building a Motor or Generator in the true sense of the terms, here I can appreciate why JB called his machine an Energizer.
...

The desire is strong, even-though it is not easy at all to come to the same or generally similar results

It's clear now that you want a machine to power your appliances. This isn't too far from what everyone wants. Its light years away from what I want.
Powering appliances, is not a priority for me. I want what we all really want, speaking specifically for myself, I want to understand the forces that enliven the machines we haphazardly seek.


These vital forces are electrical, they are themselves mechanical, these "force" characteristics are passed on to the device that they are "channeled" through.
Our perspective has to reach beyond putting gas into the tank. We must begin seeing the fuel (in this case, the forces) as being the very soul of the apparatus.
Our conditioning bars us from experiencing the surging sea of energy that's flowing around our machines.
It's been pointed out by several very clever individuals that only a fraction of a fractions fraction of this energy is intercepted by the charge carriers in our circuits.
The latter I don't agree with, but it doesn't matter, the idea and the message it conveys is what's important.
The message is there is energy in unlimited quantity sitting just outside of our "understanding" right outside of our "Powered EMF circuit".
The solution to entraining this heretofore untapped energy source into the circuit was clever, however, few (in my opinion) interpret it properly, the solution lies in defining and finding "CIRCUIT CAPACITY. "
...

I totally agree with you, and if i can clarify, domestic experiments would be the phase one of the long road to the freedom. I would go much further after possible success. I imagine everything from independent communities to traveling to the starts, but the critical mass in thinking and technology is far from enough.

Do you understand why I suggested you drop the second coil?...

Honestly, I don't ... even think I have clues ...
I think the two coils (or groups of couples) build a section in which the resonance phenomena can manifest at full extend, while the third coil (even-though it gave me the 5-th harmonic) seems to work in different direction, not allowing the Voltage-Current potential exchange between the two coils to manifest and this section to enter into infinite resonance - Probably that's why the wheel was running pretty slow and without torque.

Your experiment is based on the image with the three coils and three magnets. Did I show you an image of my machine which is based on this principle?
I shared what I consider as "the" ideal geometry. It was only considered by one, but because it wasn't clear to him either, he didn't get very far with it.
...

Lately I've made new arrangement (the results are below), but not progressed a lot I think...
Frankly said, I'm more lost than found now ...
You probably refer beside your demonstration to the JB arrangement Self Re-gauging Idling Magneto (dvd 23)... I watched it once (I'm going to watch it more times)... and have to say, that if it weren't you, I'd probably miss the importance of the info ( the JB is perfect, but he wasn't asked smart enough questions by film producers... and no approximate geometry or block schematics provided for deeper understanding)...
I noticed the way he describes connections between the coils in the central hub energizer, and I'm going to try it (top-top, bottom-bottom and again) to have at least comparison with latest connections (RPM, Voltages and Currents of set-up 3) I've tried lately...



Here are some pictures and movie from my last (3-rd) set-up:

Two coils only. This set-up was able to run alone, while the 3-coil set-up needed two phases to run. It has more torque, even-thou it hardly makes it. The coils are positioned like First magnet enters the coil half, while the Second magnet leaves the half of the coil at the same time. This position gave the maximum amplitude of the wave with 1-st and 3-rd harmonic, while drivem by the external mover.
The pattern and sound while set-up rotates in jerks remind hart-beat - (tup-tup...pause while other pole passes..tup-tup). It can be heard (First seven seconds of the movie)
With three phases it was able to rotate to much higher speeds (around 500-600 RPM). Here it is:

Collage with few oscillo-graphics:



Tried the set up with all parallel and serial-twos connected three phases in parallel.
On the picture are visible the voltages that appear after the break up of the coils to PSU.

You have found a number of things working with your solenoids, and I am grateful that you have shared your findings with the group, but it's time that you look closer, see what I mean by three poles in one, and how it is imperative to proper operation that the coils are properly related to one another, both electrically and geometrically.


Keep in mind, we have seen all of this before, there is nothing wrong with what you are presenting, for there is one whose work was based on solenoids, if it's your desire to continue in that direction, seek out his work. Other than the geometry, that you already have, you won't find much.






Like many of the things I have said and will say, it's just a bunch of incoherent ramblings, gibberish. What do I mean when I say three pole magnet? The polarity of the magnet is characterized and or defined by the wave that it generates, if you know what to look for, the three poles become as clear to you as the nose on your face.


Dual nature of the induced, begin with a single wave, try to comprehend how its dual. Discover how the wave really (my opinion) manifests, your scope will not come to your aid, nor will Fourier.


Perspective, we must learn to view those things we well acquainted with with new eyes, not just opened ones
...

Sticking with solenoids is not a priority at all. I had a lot of empty reel skeletons in hand, and used them. I faced already design disatvantages in my set-up, so I have to make new one. The transparent plastic on which the coils are positioned and were so easy to move, now jumps up on every commutation pulse and obviously there's a lot of loses.

Probably I have to remove all but one coil in order to study more deep the wave it generates, as now other coils interfere between them, and even if one is connected to oscilloscope, it makes waves with 3-rd harmonic...

I'll make a new mechanical set-up, but I (if I may venture) need some cursory reference about the magnets to coils size ratio, and (between) magnets spacing. Also I've notices in old posts from you around that the inductance of my coils is enough (~100mH), but the resistance is too high (~40 Ohms), while you mention value around 5 ohms, which could be additional obstacle... (As I said - more lost than found).

Thank you for your lost time!
Kiril

[min2oly]

Hi Erfinder,
I think you misinterpret, it's not that nobody cares, and at least for me - I just can't wrap my head around it. I'm grasping at straws just to stay onboard. I see Kiril has been at it hard for some time now. I don't see that he has been able to generate the Fourier Half Wave. The wave which is positive or negative depending on the direction that the rotor is spun in.
I keep watching and reading though...
Kind Regards,
Patrick A.