How to calculate/measure COP of Bedini SSG easily

[iopplm]

Hi Guys, I have read about calculating the COP of bedini motor. Some requires using the scope to find the avg of the voltage and multiply by the current. Some approaches are hard to understand.

Therefore, is there an cheaper and easier way to find the COP of the system/batteries without such expensive equipment? Are we still able to calculate the COP just using multi-meter? It need not be very accurate. Just to know how the system is doing, if it is more that COP 1. If so, could anyone please explain in steps how to do the testing. My results are getting all over the places. hahaha

Thank you!

Best Regards,
Mark

[romeo-kilo]

Mark,
this seems to be very difficult.
I started with a 1F Capacitor which was fed by a small 12V transformer. I measured the Input Amps into the Cap. I have a calibrated discharger that Counts the amp hours and stops at a defined voltage (12.2V). So with that I got a CoP of 0.6 (best result after 50+ cycles and a fine tuned system)

Next try: I used a 12V battery as Input, and a regulated power supply to keep the voltage of the Input battery constant. The current was 170mA and the Output from the secondary battery was 178mA (per hour charged). I was told that this kills the Input battery.

Next try: I used a high end RC charger, that measures the AH's getting moved into the Input battery. I waited 24 hours and charged again to measure the self discharge rate.
After that I used the fully charged Input battery to Charge with the SG the Output battery. After that, I recharged the Input battery und checked the Output from the secondary.

As this last step is just in progress, I can't tell you my CoP, yet. Maybe early next week I have verified results.

hope, this helps
Ralf

[Branch Gordon]

I use a chart that John Koorn created awhile back. Here is a link where you can download. It's an excel document.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...,d.b2I&cad=rja

Just plug-in the input and output current, start and end voltages, and it calculates everything for you. If you want to know how it's all calculated you can see the formulas in whatever cell you are curious about.

As far as cost, all you need is a multimeter to measure the voltage, a couple of analog amp meters, and some aligator clip leads. Cheap and easy.

Hi Guys, I have read about calculating the COP of bedini motor. Some requires using the scope to find the avg of the voltage and multiply by the current. Some approaches are hard to understand.

Therefore, is there an cheaper and easier way to find the COP of the system/batteries without such expensive equipment? Are we still able to calculate the COP just using multi-meter? It need not be very accurate. Just to know how the system is doing, if it is more that COP 1. If so, could anyone please explain in steps how to do the testing. My results are getting all over the places. hahaha

Thank you!

Best Regards,
Mark

[iopplm]

Hi Ralf, sorry for the late reply, was busy with school work. So you measure the 1F cap with an input first?
Yeah, your first try was to discharge and charge the battery at the same time? It wouldn't do good to the battery.
I'm interested in the COP of your 2nd try. How is it?

What I did was to measure the input of the system, Amp from the input battery. And discharge the 2nd battery at C20 to the voltage before the charge and measure the input. I'm not sure if this is correct, but I hope this makes sense to most.

Best Regards,
Mark

Mark,
this seems to be very difficult.
I started with a 1F Capacitor which was fed by a small 12V transformer. I measured the Input Amps into the Cap. I have a calibrated discharger that Counts the amp hours and stops at a defined voltage (12.2V). So with that I got a CoP of 0.6 (best result after 50+ cycles and a fine tuned system)

Next try: I used a 12V battery as Input, and a regulated power supply to keep the voltage of the Input battery constant. The current was 170mA and the Output from the secondary battery was 178mA (per hour charged). I was told that this kills the Input battery.

Next try: I used a high end RC charger, that measures the AH's getting moved into the Input battery. I waited 24 hours and charged again to measure the self discharge rate.
After that I used the fully charged Input battery to Charge with the SG the Output battery. After that, I recharged the Input battery und checked the Output from the secondary.

As this last step is just in progress, I can't tell you my CoP, yet. Maybe early next week I have verified results.

hope, this helps
Ralf

[iopplm]

Hi Gordon,

Regarding the excel sheet, I remember that the output current could not be measure because of the radiant spikes. Hence I'm not sure if the approach is right. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Best Regards,
Mark

I use a chart that John Koorn created awhile back. Here is a link where you can download. It's an excel document.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...,d.b2I&cad=rja

Just plug-in the input and output current, start and end voltages, and it calculates everything for you. If you want to know how it's all calculated you can see the formulas in whatever cell you are curious about.

As far as cost, all you need is a multimeter to measure the voltage, a couple of analog amp meters, and some aligator clip leads. Cheap and easy.

[Bung-ee]

ah ah. OU and SSG. Two terms that will never ever easily come together in human history !
A SSG will scarcely ever produce a single watt of electricity for you.
Unless you are willing to go SG optimization, discharge capacitor, and all of the ,444 patent's , that's not even in the beginner's handbook from A & P Electronic Media.
The SG from this well written and interesting book is a fan that recharges to the best , 85 percent or 90 percent of electricity, and does battery rejuvenation / desulfation . Yes, I have charged alcaline batteries with my SG, this works, that's incredible.
If you're a very, very talented , devoted, time-having person, yes, you may bring it OU of say 15 percent no more than 20 percent and that's in the intermediate handbook and probably also upcoming third and last book.
And, 20 percent is really not a lot. 20 percent means to have one battery to heat your home, you need five rolling ones !!!
And compute some sort of rotating the batteries...you are not even there unless putting hundreds of hours in it, I would say, that looks more like a joke of free energy than anything ...
So, if you need a cheap-electricity fan with a good output for 10 percent of the electrical cost or may be even less than that, and are interested in rejuvenating some batteries, that's a good project, that will also teach you things alongside.
The SG is a useful tool, it could be , may be, one element of that yet-to-come free-energy swiss knife (in the "preservation/protection of energy conservation capital" category). But it is sensitive, it's very to break it or damage it with slight unattention.
So, not a tool for the masses, I think it will last its time - until something much, much simpler comes. -- And we'll be happy to throw it - although I must say, it is nice-looking and the principles on which it turns - are simply amazing to watch, and hear ! - and implemented with what I'd call simply "genius".

[Tom C]

the preceeding post from bung-ee is his own personal opinion, it does not reflect the opinion or real world results of the staff management or ownership of this forum

Tom C

[BobZilla]

LOL !

Bung-ee where do you get off speaking with such authority on the matter? You came in here poked around for less than three months and now your an expert?


For everyone else who doubts if this works or not:

Just build the freaking machine properly to start out, don't try to outsmart the original design. Get it to run nicely and where it can charge your battery fully. Do not worry about getting over the top cop.

Once you have a decent machine that can charge batteries, LEARN how it works! People like Bung-ee never bother to learn what is actually going on, they do not learn to tune it or how to run it properly. Because they do not understand how it works they certainly cannot make adjustments for it to deliver the results they seek.

[VortexTurtle]

HAHAHA ohhhhh ohhhh wow Bung-ee..... It would seem that I'm much farther along in the learning process than you are and I've been going at this for half the time. As a matter of fact, I've been messing with small electronics now for about 6 weeks max. It sounds like you're one of those people that think you know everything about everything and you can never be wrong... the type of person that doesn't realize that there is always more to learn no matter how experienced you are or how many pages of an instructional you have read. Stop trying to ruin things for people that get easily discouraged and that take people literally even when they don't know what they're talking about. I guess you haven't fiddled around and noticed that if you put your generator wires on the same coil as at least one power wire, you can get in excess of 10X the 'juice' than you would if you had it standing alone.... It is definitely possible to get OU out of a Bedini SG!!!! There is a whole lot more info out there than you're going to find in the pages of the beginners and intermediate books from John.... as I gather, those are both more or less beginners' guides to understanding the workings of, and building of the SG. Take the time to surf youtube and all the forums to find various schematics, there are some very, very, very interesting ideas out there that other people have tried and succeeded with. If you keep saying that you'll never get OU out of your SG, you probably never will, since you won't let yourself learn how to. It's like being large and telling yourself you'll never lose weight, so you never do. Keep your negative discouraging talk to yourself!!! Thank you and have a wonderful day, and happy zap-zap juicing!!

[VortexTurtle]

also, I have a question regarding that Excel COP calculator.... it says that it's no longer available.... does someone have a new link to it or can someone send it to me? thanks!

[BobZilla]

Yea the link is not working for me either. John K was the owner of the file, he may have taken it down. John recently said he was working on a new system for calculating COP but that was all he said. Perhaps he will put that out soon.

If it is just a matter of hosting the file somewhere I could put it on my public storage, with Johns permission of course.

Vortex I'm glad you are having some sucess but I just want to say that I was quite serious when I said to keep to the original design. It's obviously your experiment and you can do as you wish but I am just cautioning you that a lot of the modifications you find out there are meant to steer you down the WRONG path. Let me put it this way, anyone can build a battery charger, not everyone can build an energizer.

I mean no disrespect towards you and wish you success.

[VortexTurtle]

understandable, and thank you for the heads up. Just about all of my schematics come from the reputable sources who are involved in this forum and the energetic forum, for example, Lasersaber, ibpointless, dadhav, Minoly, cool joule, lidmotor, and also, most of all, John and Mr. Hupp themselves. Also, before I build any of them I try my best to figure out how they would work. I definitely learned the hard way that there are more people out there trying to steer you down the wrong path than there are people who actually are trying to help... I fried at least 13 2N3055's!!! Also, I am going to build the original SG bicycle wheel platform as soon as I get my hands on the magnets.... and I would like to build the one titled " Monopole Mechanical Oscillator Energizer" - once again I need more magnets, and a plastic 17 inch QUALITY wheel that can fit high quality, low friction bearings. I am going to attempt the Sequential Bipolar Switch system today on my rotor setup that I made out of stacked, glued CD's, a printer SS rod, the rubber rollers to mount the rod to the cd's ( I have it stuffed into the hole in the center of them and then jammed on the shaft.... uber tight fit....) and speaker magnets glued by the edges to the edge of the CD. I actually have that setup built quite nicely with another magnet disc on the opposing end for a generator setup. It's acting as a flywheel right now, and I want to make a starship generator on that end. However, I do have a question about the speaker magnets. Are they magnetized properly for this setup? Also, I noticed that when the coil is centered with the magnet, it acts as 2 separate magnets (ex, N N S S N N S S..... ) Should I position my coils so they are interacting with only the outer edge of the magnet? It seemed to run better that way when I had it hooked up to the simple SG circuit. Obviously it was extremely inefficient since the mags are oriented wrong for that circuit...

[BobZilla]

Ha yea those 3055's are tricky. Just can't resist when they are a third the price of a 21194, been down that road myself ;-)

They do work great for lower power systems so I'm not going to say they are junk, they just need to be used in the right situation.

Sorry I don't have advice about your setup with the magnets. I don't quite understand what your building but that's ok. You seem like you have a pretty good understanding and the right attitude to work it out. I am not saying don't tinker with things or don't build modified versions, that is all fine if the builder understands what he is trying to accomplish.

My message about sticking to the original is a message for all of these guys who have the silver platter syndrome. They think they can just build a monopole but substitute this for that and move that over to here, and think they know better about such and such, then they say aww hell this stuff doesn't work and I know because i tried it. Think of that episode of myth busters right.

Nothing wrong with experimenting beyond the basics as long as that person doesn't come crying when their **** doesn't work.

It's the same with anything a person will try, takes practice and study and those who put in little effort get little return. Many of them want it all handed to them on the silver platter but guess what, this ain't the place for that. It is a great place for like minded people to get together and share their experience however.

[VortexTurtle]

Completely understandable. It's always best to keep it simple (keep it simple, stoopid! haha) to start with, and replicate original designs so you at least have a 'control' for further experimenting. That way you actually know if you've made something that works better than the original. Honestly, I don't think very many people are going to be able to exceed John's results, and those that do are going to be HIGHLY experienced, or someone that accidentally stumbles onto a design that harnesses something they have no understanding of - yet. I'm the type of person that understands that in order to accomplish anything at all, I have to fully learn and understand how individual components function, and how they function in circuits, plus I have to really learn and understand how magnetic fields work, how induction works, etc. I'm sure I'll never stop learning those things, because there will always be something more to it than what I know. The learning process is eternal. Fortunately, I'm the type that is ambidextrous, therefore I use both hemispheres of my brain, and can mentally visualize and process how things function (once I learn the functions, obviously...), and solve problems first in my head, then physically. It helps a great deal!!

I would greatly appreciate your input on this potential device, esp since these are the only magnets I have enough of, so here is a picture of what I've built so far. I'm most definitely going to keep to John's specs for the drive side of this system, and start with only one coil, exactly as the schematic has, before I attempt to add any generator coils on the same side (to throw back into the drive batt). I want to semi-replicate the Starship generator as built by HHOforVolts on the other end. I say semi since I won't be powering the rotation with the starships.

[BobZilla]

Again sorry but I don't think I can be of much help. I am very hands on with this stuff so if it is not a machine I am familiar with I cannot really say how it would function. Those are being used as generators right? You will spin the shaft from a Bedini wheel to make a generator? Are you rectifying the output or using raw AC? I just don't understand the system your shooting for. A simple test would be to spin that shaft at a given rate, maybe use an external motor or whatever and put a rectifier on the output going to a capacitor. See what you get out of it with one orientation of the coil and then try the other way to determine which is producing more for the same input.

Anyway like I said I don't really know what is supposed to happen here so I may just be blowing smoke. You should make a thread of your own and document your work. There are many people here who may be able to give you better advice if you catch their attention.

Oh what you said about visualizing things in your head and engineering them before ever building, your fortunate to have such a gift. Mr Tesla had it too.